Holy Scripture: Can O Worms opened!

DamianWarS

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Yes, of course. The Apostles were Jews. But Cornelius was not. The New Covenant, and the New TEstament which is concerned with the New Covenant, regards the whole world, both Jew and Greek.

The Old Covenant, and the Old Testament which is concerned with it, regards Israel.

If out of stones God can raise up children for Abraham could he not do it for Cornelius?
 
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Since Vatican 2, the Catholic Church has dropped the trendy idea that the Church is Israel.

When was this trend supposed to have started?

The Orthodox Churches teach that the 3000 souls that were added to The Church at Pentecost were indeed the new Spiritual Israel. From that time until now, she is still adding to those numbers, still fishers of men.

Forgive me...
 
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There are no overt messianic prophecies within the Torah. The prophecy about "a prophet like Moses" was understood to be Joshua.

As it should have been, because it clearly refers to Joshua, who was like Moses. Jesus wasn't really like Moses at all. Jesus didn't write a whole new law. He referred to the Law of Moses and said that wouldn't change at all until the end of the world.

God made a contract with Israel - the whole tribe - in memory of Abraham, specifically. He also made a covenant with Hagar about Abraham's oldest son. He fulfilled, and continues to fulfill those covenants. Who peoples that land that God talked about? The descendants of Isaac, and also of Ishmael, dwelling among each other's tents...with difficulty. God promised that very thing, and God is true to his word. God promised good things, but he also promised some bad stuff, some complications, particularly if he was ignored, but not just. He promised Hagar that Ishmael would father many kings, and that his descendants would alongside of, and in the face of, the descendants of Isaac. And they are. That's not an altogether pleasant outcome for anybody, but it's utterly inevitable: God ordained it, it happened, none of us can change it, so we have to see what we can learn from it.

In Christ, the heirs of Isaac and of Ishmael can be reconciled as brothers and sisters with Christ, and with the Father, individually. The family/tribes are still gonna be alongside each other in that land, and they're still gonna remember. They will remember, and the only way past the perennial strife is the forgiveness that Christ preached.

What our Christian brothers and sisters are saying above is indeed Christian tradition - much more emphasized by the Greeks than by the Latins (probably because the "Greeks" ALSO lived, and live, in that land, thanks to invasions and settlement) - and it is quite old. But I don't think it's accurate. With the benefit of great distance and no territorial or cultural axe to grind with either Greeks or Jews or, mostly, Arabs (even the Vikings didn't invade the Far North - who wanted it? The only thing desirable there were the women, and they VOLUNTARILY would head off South to balmy Stockholm and a big hairy Viking husband)(The Arabs, under the flag of Islam, DID march through the Basque Pyrenees once, but it didn't work out well for them - see "Le Chanson de Roland" (didn't work out well for Roland either, but after the Arabs and Franks killed each other, we Basques were still there with our sheep, as ever)) - with the benefit of "recule" - those of us from very unimportant minor little tribes, no imperial ambitions or pride, and the stubborn round heads of animal herders (reindeer and sheep, respectively) - can read (finally), and can see that God made a deal with the Hebrews - just them - and the Ishmaelites - just them too - to give them pasture. With the Hebrews he gave them a whole list of additional things, promising them SECURITY in that herding grounds from the raging lions of empire all around them, IF they did what he said. They waxed and waned over the centuries based on whether or not they did what he said, and the Old Testament faithfully records that. It's not really about the Hebrews either, as such, but about the rewards and punishments of keeping contracts and promises with God. God delivers the goods, and it is also God - not random chance - who delivers the blows.

Of course God sends his Son through Israel. He's calling people everywhere to be his SHEEP. So he HAS TO come through a people who herd sheep. Egypt was great in its day, but people are not corn. They're not sessile, inanimate objects. "I am the farmer, you are the wheat" - sure, it works, but wheat doesn't think and it doesn't grow - and it doesn't wander off and get eaten - and it doesn't have babies that it has to protect, and it doesn't suffer. No, God had to come as an animal herder, not as a planter. Which means he had to come through a tribe of herders, one that he prepared.

And it had to be a LITERATE tribe of herders. Saami learned to write in Swedish first, or Russian I suppose, because there was no written language. Never developed. Saami aren't Swedes and they aren't Russians - they were taken into those empires, eventually, the same way that the Inuit sort of ended up in Alaska and the Yakuts ended up in Russian Siberia. Nobody ever "conquered", they just colored it in on the map, and the illiterate herders out there didn't care. Basques now write their language, but that came through Romans, and later Spanish and French. But the Hebrews - their covenant was written down centuries and centuries BC. They were LITERATE herders, raised to sophistication equalling the Egyptians, Babylonians and Greeks that ranged all around them by the fact of trade and location. Jesus' message was first told orally, but in that same generation the written texts that would keep it clear and consistent from age to age, and this was because the Jews were literate people.

God chose a particular tribe of herders - it had to be herders - at the crossroads of the ancient world. Their location caused them to naturally (and needfully) gain sophistication in civilized arts from all of the people around them, but their covenant kept them apart, lest them melt into the mess of the rovers and farmers and cease to remember their origins.

It's BECAUSE the Hebrews were herders that the Good Shepherd resonates so very well with backwardsish people around the world. the references are clear and simple and direct. The Saami and Basque didn't spend time hatin' on Jesus. When the word came, it was a pretty direct "Yeah, ok, that makes sense. And it's good to know what happens when we die. We're in!" Much, much harder for sophisticates to do that.

If the Jews didn't have writing, and sophistication from dealing with all those challenges all around, the message would not have gone out clear to the ends of the world.

There are many, many reasons why God chose the Jews as the tribe whence to send out the New Covenant that God beyond his friendship with Abraham. After all, he did make a pact with Hagar too, for Ishmael, and that has ended up sending out a message also, also in writing...and not a very kind one. And God doesn't squash that because he made a promise to Hagar. He keeps his promises.

Not being Greek, with my ethnic pride being more a matter of humor than delusions of grandeur, or a matter of taking on the attributes of the larger empires (France, Spain, Sweden) into which my little tribes were absorbed, the legalistic transfer of...whatever...between Jews and Greeks is just not interesting to me. I don't see it in Scripture. When Scripture ends, I still see Jews as Jews, and I see the Kingdom of God not being Greeks and Romans, but individuals who happen to be Greek, or Roman, or Jewish, or Egyptian, or Ethiopian, or any of the panoply of people of ancient Rome. I see us followers as Christ of being a Kingdom of Sheep, following the Shepherd. He HAPPENS TO BE Jewish, for reasons of the cleverness of God, but it's not about turning Basques and Saami and Celts into Jews, that's not what I read in that book. It's about turning us into sheep (or reindeer - different flocks, different folds).
Baa!
 
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There are no overt messianic prophecies within the Torah.

May I interject for just one moment?

Are you aware that the earliest Christian catechisms were on the subject of Christ being the man who walked in the garden in Genesis, in direct contrast to the traditional Judaic teaching that it is the Father and has nothing to do with a Christ?

The teaching of Moses making the sign of the cross over the Red Sea? Holding up a serpent, as the son of man would be crucified?

Forgive me...
 
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PeaceB

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But the teachings about Israel and that period that show up constantly in the OT are later made flesh in Christ, so for a Christian, the OT is about Christ as much as the NT.
I don't know if you can say that either the NT or the OT is fundamentally about our Lord Jesus. Certainly the OT points to Jesus (as well as many other things in the NT), and certainly a large portion of the NT (the gospels in particular) is about the person of Christ. But it seems to me that one could just as easily characterize the bulk of the NT as about the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of a Christian. Both the NT and the OT seem to be fundamentally about God, and contain his revelation to us about himself and ourselves. Our Lord Jesus is a central part of that, of course, but I do not know if it is correct to say that Scripture is more so about Jesus than the Father or the Holy Spirit.
 
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CHRIST IN THE OLD TESTAMENT
Fr. Ted Bobosh
Fr. Ted Bobosh. Christ in the Old Testament / OrthoChristian.Com

“… the treasure hid in the Scriptures is Christ, since He was pointed out by means of types and parables.” (St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies and Fragments, Kindle Loc. 6350-51)



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Photo: Wikiwand

Central to the teachings of Christ is that Moses and the Prophets wrote about Him. We have already encountered this in several of the blog posts in this series.

Jesus said: “You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. . . . If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?” (John 5: 39-47)

In this post, we will look at several quotes from St. Irenaeus of Lyons (d. 202AD) and how he applied Christ’s own words to the Scriptures.

“For if ye had believed Moses, ye would also have believed Me; for he wrote of Me;“(John 5:46) [saying this,] no doubt, because the Son of God is implanted everywhere throughout his writings: at one time, indeed, speaking with Abraham, when about to eat with him; at another time with Noah, giving to him the dimensions [of the ark]; at another; inquiring after Adam; at another, bringing down judgment upon the Sodomites; and again, when He becomes visible, and directs Jacob on his journey, and speaks with Moses from the bush. And it would be endless to recount [the occasions] upon which the Son of God is shown forth by Moses. Of the day of His passion, too, he was not ignorant; but foretold Him, after a figurative manner, by the name given to the passover; and at that very festival, which had been proclaimed such a long time previously by Moses, did our Lord suffer, thus fulfilling the passover.” (St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies and Fragments, Kindle Loc. 5535-41)

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In the above quote, St. Irenaeus shows that in the 2ndCentury Christians believed that the anthropomorphic appearances of God in the Old Testament were actually appearances of the pre-incarnate Christ. It is the Son of God who speaks to Moses from the burning bush and in every occurrence in which Moses spoke with God face to face as a man speaks to a friend (Exodus 33:11). Christ is thus hidden from us in each manifestation of God in the Old Testament if we read the Jewish Scriptures with no knowledge of the Holy Trinity. But in Christ we see in these Old Testament theophanies that Christ is appearing to the saints of the people of God. In Christ we come to realize what these holy men and women are seeing when they encounter God. The authors of the Old Testament books themselves did not fully understand what they were witnessing, but still they reported these anthropomorphic experiences. In Christ we understand more fully what they were encountering yet couldn’t fully describe. That is why the Old Testament theophanies are not able to fully explain that it was the Word of God who they encountered. Once the incarnation occurs in Christ, we are able to see Christ the Word in the Old Testament texts.


“But since the writings (litera) of Moses are the words of Christ, He does Himself declare to the Jews, as John has recorded in the Gospel: “If ye had believed Moses, ye would have believed Me: for he wrote of Me. But if ye believe not his writings, neither will ye believe My words.” He thus indicates in the clearest manner that the writings of Moses are His words. If, then, [this be the case with regard] to Moses, so also, beyond a doubt, the words of the other prophets are His [words], as I have pointed out. And again, the Lord Himself exhibits Abraham as having said to the rich man, with reference to all those who were still alive: “If they do not obey Moses and the prophets, neither, if any one were to rise from the dead and go to them, will they believe him.” (St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies and Fragments, Kindle Loc. Loc. 5203-8)

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Not only did Moses and the prophets encounter Christ the Word of God, it is Christ the Word who speaks to them and gives them the words which they record in the Scriptures. Moses and all the prophets were telling us what they heard from Christ, so that when we encounter these same words, phrases, ideas, and metaphors in the New Testament we recognize Christ in the Old Testament. Scholars speak about the New Testament being filled with echoes of Old Testament ideas and phrases – this is because in fact the Old Testament authors were hearing Christ and recording what He said. It is the Old Testament authors who are actually echoing the New Testament!

And teaching this very thing, He said to the Jews: “Your father Abraham rejoiced that he should see my day; and he saw it, and was glad” What is intended? “Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness.” In the first place, [he believed] that He was the maker of heaven and earth, the only God; and in the next place, that He would make his seed as the stars of heaven. This is what is meant by Paul, [when he says,] “as lights in the world.”Righteously, therefore, having left his earthly kindred, he followed the Word of God, walking as a pilgrim with the Word, that he might [afterwards] have his abode with the Word. Righteously also the apostles, being of the race of Abraham, left the ship and their father, and followed the Word. Righteously also do we, possessing the same faith as Abraham, and taking up the cross as Isaac did the wood? follow Him. For in Abraham man had learned beforehand, and had been accustomed to follow the Word of God. For Abraham, according to his faith, followed the command of the Word of God, and with a ready mind delivered up, as a sacrifice to God, his only- begotten and beloved son, in order that God also might be pleased to offer up for all his seed His own beloved and only-begotten Son, as a sacrifice for our redemption. (St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies and Fragments, Kindle Loc. 5320-29)

Every encounter with the Word of God by the holy men and women of the Old Testament is thus an encounter with Christ. And each encounter with Christ is also a revelation of God the Father, even as Jesus said: “He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me?” (John 14:9-10). Each theophany in the Old Testament was thus really an encounter with the pre-incarnate Word of God, but each encounter also revealed the Father to all. For Christ is the image of the Father. “He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities—all things were created through him and for him” (Colossians 1:15-16).

Fr. St. Irenaeus, Christ is now obvious in the Old Testament texts. He reads the Torah (Pentateuch) as a typology and preparation for the coming of Jesus the Christ. Joshua, the protégé of Moses, shares the same name as Jesus in the Old Testament. Thus everything Joshua does prefigures Christ and is thus prophecy.

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“Take unto you Joshua (᾿Ιησοῦν) the son of Nun.”(Numbers 27:18) For it was proper that Moses should lead the people out of Egypt, but that Jesus (Joshua) should lead them into the inheritance. Also that Moses, as was the case with the law, should cease to be, but that Joshua (᾿Ιησοῦν), as the word, and no untrue type of the Word made flesh (ἐνυποστάτου), should be a preacher to the people. Then again, [it was fit] that Moses should give manna as food to the fathers, but Joshua wheat; as the first-fruits of life, a type of the body of Christ, as also the Scripture declares that the manna of the Lord ceased when the people had eaten wheat from the land.(Joshua 5:12)”
(St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies and Fragments, Kindle Loc. 9079-89)

The books of the Old Testament clearly witness to Christ, but do so by hiding Christ in the very text which records the events of the Old Testament as well as in the events and people of the Tanahk. Jesus Christ has fully revealed the meaning of the Old Testament. His image, found on every page of the Scriptures, is now obvious to all of those who are in Christ.

“For every prophecy, before its fulfilment, is to men [full of] enigmas and ambiguities. But when the time has arrived, and the prediction has come to pass, then the prophecies have a clear and certain exposition. And for this reason, indeed, when at this present time the law is read to the Jews, it is like a fable; for they do not possess the explanation of all things pertaining to the advent of the Son of God, which took place in human nature; but when it is read by the Christians, it is a treasure, hid indeed in a field, but brought to light by the cross of Christ, and explained, both enriching the understanding of men, and showing forth the wisdom of God and declaring His dispensations with regard to man, and forming the kingdom of Christ beforehand… ” (St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies and Fragments, Kindle Loc. 6354-59)

Fr. Ted's Blog
Fr. Ted Bobosh
11/3/2016


Forgive me...
 
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Targaryen

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I don't know if you can say that either the NT or the OT is fundamentally about our Lord Jesus. Certainly the OT points to Jesus (as well as many other things in the NT), and certainly a large portion of the NT (the gospels in particular) is about the person of Christ. But it seems to me that one could just as easily characterize the bulk of the NT as about the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of a Christian. Both the NT and the OT seem to be fundamentally about God, and contain his revelation to us about himself and ourselves. Our Lord Jesus is a central part of that, of course, but I do not know if it is correct to say that Scripture is more so about Jesus than the Father or the Holy Spirit.

And Christians teach the Holy Trinity for a reason, it still plays right back into the traditional view Christians have about Scripture, which again tends to draw the reader back to the lens of Christ.
 
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PeaceB

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And Christians teach the Holy Trinity for a reason, it still plays right back into the traditional view Christians have about Scripture, which again tends to draw the reader back to the lens of Christ.
Certainly, Scripture draws people to our Lord Jesus. But are you suggesting that Scripture is more fundamentally a revelation about Jesus than it is about the Father or the Holy Spirit?
 
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Targaryen

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Jesus is the lens of which we as Christians view Scripture, The Father and the Holy Spirit play as much of a role in Scripture certainly, but again, with out the context of Christ as Lord does the text of Scripture play a relevance in the way we have historically proclaimed the faith.
 
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Certainly, Scripture draws people to our Lord Jesus. But are you suggesting that Scripture is more fundamentally a revelation about Jesus than it is about the Father or the Holy Spirit?

Um... yes.

Forgive me...
 
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PeaceB

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Jesus is the lens of which we as Christians view Scripture, The Father and the Holy Spirit play as much of a role in Scripture certainly, but again, with out the context of Christ as Lord does the text of Scripture play a relevance in the way we have historically proclaimed the faith.
True, but we would also have to deviate from the historic proclamation of the faith without everything that Scripture reveals about the Father and the Holy Spirit. I don't think that Scripture as a whole elevates one Person of the Trinity over the others in terms of importance or emphasis. I don't think you can really separate them out like that...
 
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True, but we would also have to deviate from the historic proclamation of the faith without everything that Scripture reveals about the Father and the Holy Spirit. I don't think that Scripture as a whole elevates one person of the

I think there is a misunderstanding here. A Christological view of Scripture is not elevating the person of Christ ahead of the Father nor the Spirit nor is it an argument against dual-covenant theology.

The Christolgical view of Scripture is signifying the traditional position that Christ is our Lord and Saviour and that the prophecies,laws proclaimed in the OT are fulfilled in him, and without the person of Christ can we understand either the Father nor the Spirit fully.
 
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May I interject for just one moment?

Are you aware that the earliest Christian catechisms were on the subject of Christ being the man who walked in the garden in Genesis, in direct contrast to the traditional Judaic teaching that it is the Father and has nothing to do with a Christ?

The teaching of Moses making the sign of the cross over the Red Sea? Holding up a serpent, as the son of man would be crucified?

Forgive me...

I'll interject something myself. I was unaware of the earliest Christian catechisms being on those subjects. But having heard them now, most of them are clearly Christian midrash: stories told by Christians to highlight points of interest to those people.

YHWH walked with Adam and Eve in the Garden. We've got some Christian midrash identifying YHWH as Jesus, but we've got ancient orthodox Christian scripture, the Peshitta of the Syriac Christians, in which Jesus prays by name to YHWH. I see no Biblical reason to assert with any strength that YHWH is Jesus, and I do see a Biblical reason not to: the Peshitta, which was produced by orthodox, Catholic Christians when the Church was united.

As far as Moses making the sign of the cross, that's Christian storytelling. Unless an angel told somebody that (and where is the record for that? I've never heard of it) it's one of those nice stories that are speculative but nothing more than that.

These things are Christian midrash - storytelling. Unless one is asserting that the Holy Spirit inspired the midrash also, and that it all must be accepted as inspired by God, then the only thing I will point to is the conflict between authorities in the first instance. Theology based on midrash can be interesting, but isn't very authoritative.

It was Jesus himself who made the comparison between Moses lifting up the bronze serpent and his own impeding "lifting up" in the crucifixion, saying "just like".
 
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I'll interject something myself. I was unaware of the earliest Christian catechisms being on those subjects. But having heard them now, most of them are clearly Christian midrash: stories told by Christians to highlight points of interest to those people.

YHWH walked with Adam and Eve in the Garden. We've got some Christian midrash identifying YHWH as Jesus, but we've got ancient orthodox Christian scripture, the Peshitta of the Syriac Christians, in which Jesus prays by name to YHWH. I see no Biblical reason to assert with any strength that YHWH is Jesus, and I do see a Biblical reason not to: the Peshitta, which was produced by orthodox, Catholic Christians when the Church was united.

As far as Moses making the sign of the cross, that's Christian storytelling. Unless an angel told somebody that (and where is the record for that? I've never heard of it) it's one of those nice stories that are speculative but nothing more than that.

These things are Christian midrash - storytelling. Unless one is asserting that the Holy Spirit inspired the midrash also, and that it all must be accepted as inspired by God, then the only thing I will point to is the conflict between authorities in the first instance. Theology based on midrash can be interesting, but isn't very authoritative.

It was Jesus himself who made the comparison between Moses lifting up the bronze serpent and his own impeding "lifting up" in the crucifixion, saying "just like".

Are you by chance Hebrew by birth?

Forgive me...
 
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PeaceB

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I think there is a misunderstanding here. A Christological view of Scripture is not elevating the person of Christ ahead of the Father nor the Spirit nor is it an argument against dual-covenant theology.

The Christolgical view of Scripture is signifying the traditional position that Christ is our Lord and Saviour and that the prophecies,laws proclaimed in the OT are fulfilled in him, and without the person of Christ can we understand either the Father nor the Spirit fully.
Well most Christians, including myself, have a Christological view of Scripture.

I had understood you as suggesting that Scripture has more to reveal about the person of Jesus than it does about the Father or the Holy Spirit, but perhaps I misunderstood you. I wouldn't go that far.

I don't think we can fully understand the Father or the Holy Spirit in any event though, at least not before we share in the beatific vision.
 
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Vicomte13

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Are you by chance Hebrew by birth?

Forgive me...

Not remotely.
I am American by birth. Of Saami, Basque, Danish and Celtic origin.
My ancestors came to this country from a variety of places, all of them long ago. The most RECENT arrivals were in the mid-1850s.
I identify myself as "French", because it's the closest to the boat, I speak the language, went to law school and practiced in Paris for a time, have a French wife and a dual-citizen child. Also, "French" is convenient because France is Basque in the Southwest, Celtic in the center, Scandinavian in the North, Alsatian in the East, and Dutch in the Northeast - and I have ancestors from all of those places (on one side or the other). It's Italian in the Southeast, and I'm not that. But I am Catholic, and therefore "Roman" if not Italian.

I was baptized as a baby as a Catholic, and that is my primary ideological identity.

I am a lawyer. I read things carefully and precisely, and I have a professional eye for contradiction and for unfounded assertion. I apply it to religion, not to get woe pronounced upon me, but to cut through the fog.

I like to talk about these subjects, but I do not like to fight about them.
 
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Not remotely.
I am American by birth. Of Saami, Basque, Danish and Celtic origin.
My ancestors came to this country from a variety of places, all of them long ago. The most RECENT arrivals were in the mid-1850s.
I identify myself as "French", because it's the closest to the boat, I speak the language, went to law school and practiced in Paris for a time, have a French wife and a dual-citizen child. Also, "French" is convenient because France is Basque in the Southwest, Celtic in the center, Scandinavian in the North, Alsatian in the East, and Dutch in the Northeast - and I have ancestors from all of those places (on one side or the other). It's Italian in the Southeast, and I'm not that. But I am Catholic, and therefore "Roman" if not Italian.

I was baptized as a baby as a Catholic, and that is my primary ideological identity.

I am a lawyer. I read things carefully and precisely, and I have a professional eye for contradiction and for unfounded assertion. I apply it to religion, not to get woe pronounced upon me, but to cut through the fog.

I like to talk about these subjects, but I do not like to fight about them.

Okay, so you're a gentile like most of us. Check!

It's just that you seem to have a heavy study in Judaism. That's why I asked.

Forgive me...
 
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