Faith or Predestination

SBC

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This shows translator bias. This is a problem that English reading Christians have to deal with. The word "spiritually" is not in the Greek text of Ephesians 2:1. What we have here is translators translating the text through their presuppositions. This is exactly what I've been stressing to Marvin. People come to the text already believing their theology and then interpret the Bible based on it. By doing this they insert their theology into the translation and mislead the reader.

You should already know or have looked up the Scriptures to verify.
There is only TWO Standings concerning God -
With Him or Against Him

If you are with Him, He quickens your spirit, which you should know, makes your spirit spiritually ALIVE, or as some people call it, without obviously understanding it; ie born again.

If you are Against Him, He does NOT quicken your spirit, which you should know, keeps your spirit spiritually DEAD, or as some people call it, without obviously understanding it; spiritually Dead; NOT born again.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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GNB is not my choice - but then some people do not comprehend what spiritually dead means, unless they can read the words, "spiritually Dead".

God is Spirit, and it is by His Spirit a mans spirit is quickened, and He who is not in standing with God, is spiritually dead, until he is quickened by the Holy Spirit.

God Bless,
SBC

We do not have God's Holy Spirit to guide us, teach us, rebirth us, let us become one with God in spirit, etc. while we are still dead in our trespasses and in the realm of the flesh. That doesn't mean we don't have a human spirit (I Cor 2:11, Job 32:8, Prov 20:27, Lk 8:55, Zech 12:1, etc.) or that our human spirit isn't functional.

The Bible does not contrast those alive in the Spirit with the 'spiritually dead,' but rather with those governed by the flesh or in the realm of the flesh. The mind governed by the flesh is subject to death; the mind governed by the Spirit will be given life. (Rom 8:1-17)
 
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Hammster

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Every "person" "just" or not, is from a natural seed. And what a natural seed produces, is a natural thing. Natural things are born, live and die.

For a person who desires to have a spiritual everlasting life, he must be born from thee spiritual Seed of God.

But it a person's choice of what they choose to do.

God Bless,
SBC
Does scripture ever differentiate between what those who are spiritual can do and what those who are natural can do?
 
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Hammster

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It does indicate that those who believe are...born of God. Just as...So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”(Acts 16:31) or Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”(Acts 11:16-17).

So many scriptures and the message of the NT clearly reveal that no one is born again unless they believe the gospel message concerning Jesus Christ. This is what Paul and all the apostles preached to everyone wherever they went. You can play Calvinistic word games to support the doctrines of men you have been taken captive by, but that will never change the truth of God's Word.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:13-14
You keep assuming that every time it says “salvation” that it’s synonymous with “born again”.
 
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Butch5

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You should already know or have looked up the Scriptures to verify.
There is only TWO Standings concerning God -
With Him or Against Him

If you are with Him, He quickens your spirit, which you should know, makes your spirit spiritually ALIVE, or as some people call it, without obviously understanding it; ie born again.

If you are Against Him, He does NOT quicken your spirit, which you should know, keeps your spirit spiritually DEAD, or as some people call it, without obviously understanding it; spiritually Dead; NOT born again.

God Bless,
SBC

This is a little off topic. Man isn't a spirit therefore he can't be spiritually dead. This idea of man as a spirit came from Plato and Greek philosophy. The Gnostics held to man as a spirit. This is the origin of the Heavenly Destiny doctrine. It was the Greeks who believed that it was their goal to ascend through the heavens to the ultimate father/mother. This is where Christians got the idea of going to Heaven. The Greeks believed that man was a spirit living in a flesh body. The goal was to escape the body. However, that is not what the Bible teaches. God made the man, Adam, out of the dust of the earth and breathed into him the breath or spirit of life. The breath or spirit of life, the spirit in man, is God's breath or spirit, not man's. The word, "man's" is a possessive. It shows possession. Man has God's breath or spirit of life in him. That is what gives him life. The man is a physical being created from the dust. That is stated plainly in Gen 2:7.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.1 (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

Moses records that God formed the man from the dust of the earth and breathed into him the breath of life and the man became a living soul. It's clear from this passage that a living soul consists of the man, the physical creation, and God's breath of life. There is nothing here to indicate that man is a spirit. Since man isn't a spirit he cannot spiritually die. If God retrieves His breath then man dies and is no longer a soul. This idea of "spiritual death" has nothing to do with Scripture, it's a concept linked to Greek philosophy and Gnosticism.
 
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RisenInJesus

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You keep assuming that every time it says “salvation” that it’s synonymous with “born again”.
Because in the scriptures salvation and being born again are not separated. One cannot be saved from their sinful state without being regenerated to new life in Christ. That is the gospel message. The person expresses faith/belief and God does the regenerating which provides salvation and new eternal life.


"Regeneration is God’s making a person spiritually alive, as a result of faith in Jesus Christ. Prior to salvation we were not God’s children (John 1:12–13); rather, we were children of wrath (Ephesians 2:3; Romans 5:18–20). Before salvation, we were degenerate; after salvation we are regenerated. The result of regeneration is peace with God (Romans 5:1), new life (Titus 3:5; 2 Corinthians 5:17), and eternal sonship (John 1:12–13; Galatians 3:26). Regeneration begins the process of sanctification wherein we become the people God intends us to be (Romans 8:28–30).

The only means of regeneration is by faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross."

What is regeneration according to the Bible?
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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You keep assuming that every time it says “salvation” that it’s synonymous with “born again”.

The new birth in Christ is tied together with salvation since our passage from death under the flesh to life by the Spirit is what leads us to hold the promise of eternal life. Being born again is one of the many ways Christ delivers (saves) those who believe in Him, along with our sins being forgiven, gaining the imputed righteousness of Christ, etc.

Believers are born again of 'imperishable seed' vs. perishable.

"He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God. Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart. For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God." I Pet 1:20-23

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me holds eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

"But these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing, you may have life in His name." Jn 20:31

"Or aren’t you aware that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We therefore were buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with Him like this in His death, we will certainly also be raised to life as He was." Rom 6:3-5
 
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Hammster

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Because in the scriptures salvation and being born again are not separated. One cannot be saved from their sinful state without being regenerated to new life in Christ. That is the gospel message. The person expresses faith/belief and God does the regenerating which provides salvation and new eternal life.


"Regeneration is God’s making a person spiritually alive, as a result of faith in Jesus Christ. Prior to salvation we were not God’s children (John 1:12–13); rather, we were children of wrath (Ephesians 2:3; Romans 5:18–20). Before salvation, we were degenerate; after salvation we are regenerated. The result of regeneration is peace with God (Romans 5:1), new life (Titus 3:5; 2 Corinthians 5:17), and eternal sonship (John 1:12–13; Galatians 3:26). Regeneration begins the process of sanctification wherein we become the people God intends us to be (Romans 8:28–30).

The only means of regeneration is by faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross."

What is regeneration according to the Bible?
I’m just going to take one verse you quoted to show where you are in error.

You said “The result of regeneration is peace with God (Romans 5:1)”

That isn’t what the verse says. So why pretend that it does?
 
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Hammster

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The new birth in Christ is tied together with salvation since our passage from death under the flesh to life by the Spirit is what leads us to hold the promise of eternal life. Being born again is one of the many ways Christ delivers (saves) those who believe in Him, along with our sins being forgiven, gaining the imputed righteousness of Christ, etc.

Believers are born again of 'imperishable seed' vs. perishable.

"He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God. Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart. For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God." I Pet 1:20-23

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me holds eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

"But these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing, you may have life in His name." Jn 20:31

"Or aren’t you aware that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We therefore were buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with Him like this in His death, we will certainly also be raised to life as He was." Rom 6:3-5
I never said they weren’t tied together. Why pretend that I did?
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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I’m just going to take one verse you quoted to show where you are in error.

You said “The result of regeneration is peace with God (Romans 5:1)”

That isn’t what the verse says. So why pretend that it does?

If you read Romans chapters 3-6, it certainly is linking regeneration with the reconciliation/peace with God.

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." Rom 3:21-24

"Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them." Rom 4:9-11 (righteousness after faith but -before- circumcision, see Rom 2:29 on our circumcision of the heart by the spirit)

"It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression." Rom 9:13-15 (Note that unbelievers under the law cannot be heirs - cannot be the born again children of God.)

Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.” He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life (quickeneth) to the dead and calls into being things that were not." Rom 4:16-17

"Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification." Rom 4:20-25

"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." Rom 5:1-5

God's love poured out into our hearts through the Spirit certainly sounds like regeneration.

"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation." Rom 5:9-11

Being saved through the life of Christ follows reconciliation, which follows justification, which follows faith.

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

Reigning in life through Christ certainly sounds like regeneration.

"..so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Rom 5:21

"We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace." Rom 6:5-14

Dying with Christ that we might live in Christ? Dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus? Brought from death to life? That all sounds like regeneration and being born again!
 
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Hammster

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If you read Romans chapters 3-6, it certainly is linking regeneration with the reconciliation/peace with God.

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." Rom 3:21-24

"Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them." Rom 4:9-11 (righteousness after faith but -before- circumcision, see Rom 2:29 on our circumcision of the heart by the spirit)

"It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression." Rom 9:13-15 (Note that unbelievers under the law cannot be heirs - cannot be the born again children of God.)

Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.” He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life (quickeneth) to the dead and calls into being things that were not." Rom 4:16-17

"Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification." Rom 4:20-25

"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." Rom 5:1-5

God's love poured out into our hearts through the Spirit certainly sounds like regeneration.

"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation." Rom 5:9-11

Being saved through the life of Christ follows reconciliation, which follows justification, which follows faith.

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

Reigning in life through Christ certainly sounds like regeneration.

"..so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Rom 5:21

"We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace." Rom 6:5-14

Dying with Christ that we might live in Christ? Dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus? Brought from death to life? That all sounds like regeneration and being born again!
I just read the first half because your walls of text are too much. There’s no real reasonable way to respond. But all you showed was that we are justified by faith. I agree with that.
 
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RisenInJesus

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I’m just going to take one verse you quoted to show where you are in error.

You said “The result of regeneration is peace with God (Romans 5:1)”

That isn’t what the verse says. So why pretend that it does?
I actually didn't say "The result of regeneration is peace with God (Romans 5:1)”. It was part of the larger except from the gotquestions.org website article which I did include a link to. So if you really think their commentary on the verse is in error you could take it up with them. Personally though, I believe being justified by faith and regenerated does bring peace with God. From my reading of the scriptures this is what I see. I'm not sure what other means you have concluded brings peace with God.

The previous chapter (Romans 4) speaks abundantly about faith and how God in His grace gives life to the dead when they believe. Jennifer Rothnie highlighted several scriptures for you on this very subject. It's too bad you couldn't manage to read all "her wall of text" as you put, since that text was for the most part passages from God's Word.
 
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Hammster

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I actually didn't say "The result of regeneration is peace with God (Romans 5:1)”. It was part of the larger except from the gotquestions.org website article which I did include a link to. So if you really think their commentary on the verse is in error you could take it up with them. Personally though, I believe being justified by faith and regenerated does bring peace with God. From my reading of the scriptures this is what I see. I'm not sure what other means you have concluded brings peace with God.

The previous chapter (Romans 4) speaks abundantly about faith and how God in His grace gives life to the dead when they believe. Jennifer Rothnie highlighted several scriptures for you on this very subject. It's too bad you couldn't manage to read all "her wall of text" as you put, since that text was for the most part passages from God's Word.
There you go again, just mixing things up and acting as if your opposing something I believe.

Yes, regeneration and justification bring peace. I’ve never said anything else. So please stop acting as if I did.

But getting back on topic, if you quote an article to make a point, own up to what it says. You agreed, by posting the article, that Romans 5:1 says something about regeneration when it doesn’t.

I can pick more verses from the article, if you’d like.
 
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RisenInJesus

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There you go again, just mixing things up and acting as if your opposing something I believe.

Yes, regeneration and justification bring peace. I’ve never said anything else. So please stop acting as if I did.

But getting back on topic, if you quote an article to make a point, own up to what it says. You agreed, by posting the article, that Romans 5:1 says something about regeneration when it doesn’t.

I can pick more verses from the article, if you’d like.

You just said..."Yes, regeneration and justification bring peace."... so what are you arguing about? I have already said I believe being justified by faith and regenerated does bring peace with God. And obviously I agree with the article excerpt I posted or I would not have included. I am not specifically saying that Romans 5:1 says word for word "the result of regeneration is peace with God" or states something about regeneration as you are accusing because I did not write those words. But Romans 5:1 is part of a whole and that whole is the chapter, the book , and the NT which does show that being born again brings peace with God.
It just seems to me that you thrive on nit-picking and picking apart the Bible into isolated little bits and pieces to suit your arguments and doctrinal beliefs.
 
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Hammster

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You just said..."Yes, regeneration and justification bring peace."... so what are you arguing about? I have already said I believe being justified by faith and regenerated does bring peace with God. And obviously I agree with the article excerpt I posted or I would not have included. I am not specifically saying that Romans 5:1 says word for word "the result of regeneration is peace with God" or states something about regeneration as you are accusing because I did not write those words. But Romans 5:1 is part of a whole and that whole is the chapter, the book , and the NT which does show that being born again brings peace with God.
It just seems to me that you thrive on nit-picking and picking apart the Bible into isolated little bits and pieces to suit your arguments and doctrinal beliefs.
What I’m arguing about? I’d left the Thread when you and SBC quoted me. And then we have had this discussion. And you don’t even know what it’s about?

:doh:
 
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RisenInJesus

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What I’m arguing about? I’d left the Thread when you and SBC quoted me. And then we have had this discussion. And you don’t even know what it’s about?

:doh:
I know what I am discussing, but I don't think you clearly know what you are arguing about. I have been saying that I believe the Bible when it says a person who believes the gospel and expresses faith in Jesus Christ, receives salvation, which includes being born again to new and eternal life in Christ. It appears to me that you have a difficult time understanding this simple coherent message of the scriptures.
 
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Hammster

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I know what I am discussing, but I don't think you clearly know what you are arguing about. I have been saying that I believe the Bible when it says a person who believes the gospel and expresses faith in Jesus Christ, receives salvation, which includes being born again to new and eternal life in Christ. It appears to me that you have a difficult time understanding this simple coherent message of the scriptures.
If that was the message, I’d understand it. But you have yet to make your case. You’ve yet to show where faith precedes regeneration. You just assume that salvation equals regeneration.
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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If that was the message, I’d understand it. But you have yet to make your case. You’ve yet to show where faith precedes regeneration. You just assume that salvation equals regeneration.

We've made that case from scripture many times that regeneration/new life in the Spirit/being born from above follows faith as we are baptized - dying to self and flesh, rising to new life in Christ by the Spirit as children of God. You just, as you self-admitted, didn't read those 'long walls of text'. There is no reason to copy the same discussions of scripture and context over and over if you are not going to read them and just assert that 'they don't say what you claim.'

And as you have also admitted clearly that you disagree with the Christian Forums stance on how to become a Christian (which I would hazard that most others in this thread, Calvinist or not, would agree with) there seems little point in trying to convince you otherwise. This thread is supposed to be about different soteriological views regarding what predestination is/how it works/how it relates to faith, etc. - not rehashing the basic gospel message.
 
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Hammster

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We've made that case from scripture many times that regeneration/new life in the Spirit/being born from above follows faith as we are baptized - dying to self and flesh, rising to new life in Christ by the Spirit as children of God. You just, as you self-admitted, didn't read those 'long walls of text'. There is no reason to copy the same discussions of scripture and context over and over if you are not going to read them and just assert that 'they don't say what you claim.'

And as you have also admitted clearly that you disagree with the Christian Forums stance on how to become a Christian (which I would hazard that most others in this thread, Calvinist or not, would agree with) there seems little point in trying to convince you otherwise. This thread is supposed to be about different soteriological views regarding what predestination is/how it works/how it relates to faith, etc. - not rehashing the basic gospel message.
Like I said earlier, I had unsubscribed from the Thread. It wasn’t until I was quoted twice about rebirth, one of the times being from the OP, did I rejoin the conversation.

And yes, you provided lots of scripture. But not once did you quote scripture that says what you think it does.

How about instead of these walls of text, you pick one that you think best supports your view and we can discuss it. Carpet bombing isn’t the way to have the discussion.
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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I’m just going to take one verse you quoted to show where you are in error.

You said “The result of regeneration is peace with God (Romans 5:1)”

That isn’t what the verse says. So why pretend that it does?

He was quoting from the Gotquestions answer to what regeneration is. They are a Q/A ministry that holds to 4-point Calvinism. Rom 5:1 works not because of the verse alone, but because the context of Rom 3-6 is progressively showing the results of the believer's new life in Christ (regeneration) - which I got into in-depth in my 'long wall of text' that was pretty much highlights from Romans, chapters 3-6, showing the sequence of the argument.

Here is another excerpt from S. Michael Houdmann's essay on it (Again, he is a 4-point Calvinist):

"Another word for regeneration is rebirth, related to the biblical phrase "born again." Our rebirth is distinguished from our first birth, when we were conceived physically and inherited our sin nature. The new birth is a spiritual, holy, and heavenly birth that results in our being made alive spiritually. Man in his natural state is "dead in trespasses and sins" until he is "made alive" (regenerated) by Christ. This happens when he places his faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:1-9).....
The only means of regeneration is by faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross. No amount of good works or keeping of the Law can regenerate the heart. "By works of the law no human being will be justified in [God's] sight" (Romans 3:20). Only Christ offers a cure for the total depravity of the human heart. We don't need renovation or reformation or reorganization; we need rebirth."
What is regeneration according to the Bible?
 
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