Faith or Predestination

[Hammster]

It demonstrates, as do many scriptures in the New Testament, that one must believe that Jesus is the Christ to be born again, be saved, and have eternal life...

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 1 John 5:1

Do you see what that says? It’s indicative. It doesn’t say that those who believe become born of God.

 

[SBC]

They are the only ones who can be.

You believe UNBELIEVERS are or can be "born again"?

They are the only ones who can be.

Patently false.

Sinners confess their BELIEF, from the truth in their hearts.
God searches their heart.
A True confessor, has his soul restored, ie saved.
A True confessor, receives a new heart.
A True confessor, receives the Seed of God.
A True confessor, has their new spirit birthed by the Seed of God.
A True confessor, has thus become born again.

It is BY an Unbeliever gaining faith OF BELIEF, that precedes his soul's saving and born again spirit.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[SBC]

Is that something you made up or can I find that in the Scriptures?

No, it is something you do not understand which Scripture reveals.

Spiritually DEAD.....any part of you....body, soul, spirit, word, thought, etc. ...
that IS NOT IN STANDING WITH GOD.

John 4 [24] God is a Spirit:

Matt 12 [30] He that is not with me is against me;

John 3 [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Gal 5 [17] For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit,

Mark 12 [27] He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living:

John 3 [7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Hammster]

You believe UNBELIEVERS are or can be "born again"?



Patently false.

Sinners confess their BELIEF, from the truth in their hearts.
God searches their heart.
A True confessor, has his soul restored, ie saved.
A True confessor, receives a new heart.
A True confessor, receives the Seed of God.
A True confessor, has their new spirit birthed by the Seed of God.
A True confessor, has thus become born again.

It is BY an Unbeliever gaining faith OF BELIEF, that precedes his soul's saving and born again spirit.

God Bless,
SBC

Close. It’s actually being born again where you gain faith.

 

[SBC]

Close. It’s actually being born again where you gain faith.

Your inference was UNbelievers are the only ones who can become born again.

Still patently false. It is believers who are the only ones who can become born again.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Hammster]

Your inference was UNbelievers are the only ones who can become born again.

Still patently false. It is believers who are the only ones who can become born again.

God Bless,
SBC

Believers don’t need to be born again. They are justified. Why would a just person need to be born again?

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Close. It’s actually being born again where you gain faith.

We must believe in Christ to gain new life in Christ by the Spirit (be 'born again' of Spirit that we may enter the kingdom of God.

We are only 'born again' when we die to self and rise with Christ as new creations through faith. We must be born again to enter the kingdom of God, whether the earthly kingdom of God (the church) or the future kingdom of God (New Jerusalem). However, we cannot be 'born again' without faith, and we must be in Christ to be born again (II Pet 1:18-25, II Cor 5:14-21, Tit 3:4-7, I Pet 3:18-22, Gal 6:14-15, etc.)

"So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." Gal 3:26

"Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit." Gal 5:24-25

"But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God— children born not of blood, nor will of the flesh, nor will of man, but born of God." - John 1:13

"You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:9-15

"Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come." II Cor 5:17]

The phrase 'born again' literally means "born from above." [gennēthē anōthen]

It is the believer who gains new birth from above in Christ - gaining new life in the Spirit for the present, gaining new birth as children of God, gaining the promise of a literal new spiritual body as well at the Ressurection. (2 Corinthians 5:17; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:3; 1 John 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1-4, 18, John 1:12-13, etc.)

 

[Hammster]

We must believe in Christ to gain new life in Christ by the Spirit (be 'born again' of Spirit that we may enter the kingdom of God.

We are only 'born again' when we die to self and rise with Christ as new creations through faith. We must be born again to enter the kingdom of God, whether the earthly kingdom of God (the church) or the future kingdom of God (New Jerusalem). However, we cannot be 'born again' without faith, and we must be in Christ to be born again (II Pet 1:18-25, II Cor 5:14-21, Tit 3:4-7, I Pet 3:18-22, Gal 6:14-15, etc.)

"So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." Gal 3:26

"Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit." Gal 5:24-25

"But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God— children born not of blood, nor will of the flesh, nor will of man, but born of God." - John 1:13

"You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:9-15

"Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come." II Cor 5:17]

The phrase 'born again' literally means "born from above." [gennēthē anōthen]

It is the believer who gains new birth from above in Christ - gaining new life in the Spirit for the present, gaining new birth as children of God, gaining the promise of a literal new spiritual body as well at the Ressurection. (2 Corinthians 5:17; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:3; 1 John 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1-4, 18, John 1:12-13, etc.)

None of those texts support your claim.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Believers don’t need to be born again. They are justified. Why would a just person need to be born again?

Believers don't need to be born again over and over, but they are born again once when they first put their faith in Christ; baptism; the death to self and rising with Christ to gain new life by the Spirit. This is our transition from slaves to sin by the flesh to children of God by the Spirit. (Believers will also receive new spiritual bodies at the resurrection - the hope of what we do not yet have (Rom 8:23-25.)

Just as an Israelite had to be circumcised, so the believer needs 'circumcision of the heart.'

"In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by" Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead." Col 2:11-12

Note that we are raised with Christ unto new life -through- our faith in the working of God, not raised to new life so we can -get- faith.

"Or aren’t you aware that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We therefore were buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with Him like this in His death, we will certainly also be raised to life as He was.…" Rom 6:3-5

 

[Hammster]

Believers don't need to be born again over and over, but they are born again once when they first put their faith in Christ; baptism; the death to self and rising with Christ to gain new life by the Spirit. This is our transition from slaves to sin by the flesh to children of God by the Spirit. (Believers will also receive new spiritual bodies at the resurrection - the hope of what we do not yet have (Rom 8:23-25.)

Just as an Israelite had to be circumcised, so the believer needs 'circumcision of the heart.'

"In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by" Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead." Col 2:11-12

Note that we are raised with Christ unto new life -through- our faith in the working of God, not raised to new life so we can -get- faith.

"Or aren’t you aware that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We therefore were buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with Him like this in His death, we will certainly also be raised to life as He was.…" Rom 6:3-5

Again, none of this proves your point.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Believers don’t need to be born again. They are justified. Why would a just person need to be born again?

I'm just going to quote from the Christian Forum's official thread on "How do I become a Christian" here, which states that becoming a child of God follows receiving Christ in faith:

"Salvation Is a Free Gift

• "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not by works, so that no one can boast." --Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV)

The word grace means "undeserved favor." It means God is offering you something you could never provide for yourself: forgiveness of sins and eternal life, God's gift to you is free. You do not have to work for a gift. All you have to do is joyfully receive it, Believe with all your heart that Jesus Christ died for you!

Christ Is at Your Heart's Door

• "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." --Revelation 3:20 (NIV)

Jesus Christ wants to have a personal relationship with you. Picture, if you will, Jesus Christ standing at the door of your heart (the door of your emotions, intellect and will). Invite Him in; He is waiting for you to receive Him into your heart and life.

You Must Receive Him

• "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God." --John 1:12 (NIV)

When you receive Christ into your heart you become a child of God, and have the privilege of talking to Him in prayer at any time about anything. The Christian life is a personal relationship to God through Jesus Christ. And best of all, it is a relationship that will last for all eternity.

Receiving Him Now
If you want to receive Jesus now, and accept His gift of salvation, it's a matter of believing in Jesus Christ, repenting of your sins, and turning the rest of your life over to Him. This is not a ritual based on specific words, but rather, a prayerful guideline for your sincere step of faith."


It's one thing to debate whether or not the heart needs regenerating or the eyes opened by special grace prior to being able to understand the gospel or receive it in faith, the theory that Jesus just gives some people faith, or other such theological questions.

It is quite another to claim our new birth in Christ by the Spirit that allows us to enter the kingdom of God precedes faith!

 

[Hammster]

I'm just going to quote from the Christian Forum's official thread on "How do I become a Christian" here, which states that becoming a child of God follows receiving Christ in faith:

"Salvation Is a Free Gift

• "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not by works, so that no one can boast." --Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV)

The word grace means "undeserved favor." It means God is offering you something you could never provide for yourself: forgiveness of sins and eternal life, God's gift to you is free. You do not have to work for a gift. All you have to do is joyfully receive it, Believe with all your heart that Jesus Christ died for you!

Christ Is at Your Heart's Door

• "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." --Revelation 3:20 (NIV)

Jesus Christ wants to have a personal relationship with you. Picture, if you will, Jesus Christ standing at the door of your heart (the door of your emotions, intellect and will). Invite Him in; He is waiting for you to receive Him into your heart and life.

You Must Receive Him

• "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God." --John 1:12 (NIV)

When you receive Christ into your heart you become a child of God, and have the privilege of talking to Him in prayer at any time about anything. The Christian life is a personal relationship to God through Jesus Christ. And best of all, it is a relationship that will last for all eternity.

Receiving Him Now
If you want to receive Jesus now, and accept His gift of salvation, it's a matter of believing in Jesus Christ, repenting of your sins, and turning the rest of your life over to Him. This is not a ritual based on specific words, but rather, a prayerful guideline for your sincere step of faith."


It's one thing to debate whether or not the heart needs regenerating or the eyes opened by special grace prior to being able to understand the gospel or receive it in faith, the theory that Jesus just gives some people faith, or other such theological questions.

It is quite another to claim our new birth in Christ by the Spirit that allows us to enter the kingdom of God precedes faith!

Obviously, I disagree with the CF statement.

 

[Butch5]

Yes He did, and so did Jesus.

No, they didn't. You haven't posted anything showing either of them did. There is no such thing a "spiritually dead." That's a term Christians use to forward an agenda. It's not found in Scripture.

I have no idea where you are coming from with this.

Which goes to my point about proof texting. You don't know the context in which Paul made the statement yet you're claiming to know what he meant. How is that? If you don't know the context then you're imposing your own understanding on what Paul said and not necessarily what he meant. A good example of this is when Christians say any works a person does do not pertain to salvation and then quote Ephesians 2:8. A passage which is explicitly about the Mosaic Law. Rather than understand it in it's context many Christians impose their own definition of the word works onto what Paul said, thus taking his words out of context.

You are either being to obtuse for your own good or you are not and evangelical Christian. Whatever the case is - get it out in the open or we'll cut things off.

Not at all. I'm asking you a realistic question. It may be hard to answer in light of your theological position, but it is a real question. When Jesus spoke of people coming to Him, He meant it literally. They literally came to Him. You're taking His words and imposing your own definition on them. You're using His words non literally when He used them literally. In doing so you're giving His words a different meaning thus you can't quote Him to support your claim

How about this context?
"The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price." Revelation 22:17

We're discussing John 6 not Revelation 22.

It depends what you mean by "controls" I suppose.
But - yes, He does control everything in that nothing happens which He does not OK to happen beforehand.

Allowing something to happen is quite different them making it happen.

Yes - I believe they will if they don't let their emotions get in the way.

It's not about emotions. It's about exegesis. There are proper ways to exegete the text and, "this is what it means to me" isn't one of them. Do you have prescribe method of exegesis? If so, what is it? What is your methodology?

Yes they do.

They don't. History shows us that they don't. As I said, some of the Reformed doctrines were held by the Gnostics and actually argued against by the early Christians. That we don't find these doctrines in the church until Augustine is proof that they were not taught in the beginning.

Nonsense - the Reformers were in the Roman Catholic "denomination" and it didn't stop them from finding the truth in the scriptures.

They recognized some truth. However, they also introduced new error. Actually, they revived old error and introduced it into the Church.

Calvin wasn't born until 1509. What a silly thing to say.

I don't know where you are getting this "Calvinism" business. I said nothing about Calvinism when I talked about the predestination of all that happens in God's creation.

The doctrines that Calvin espoused were primarily those of Augustine. Calvin was a Stoic. The Stoics believed in Fatalism or that all things were fated. He simply brought that to the Scriptures. His doctrines weren't new they had been around for a long time, however, they had been rejected by the Church.

I'm not going to play silly games here.

Unless you lay out clearly now exactly what you believe about our spiritual condition and how we change it; what it means to be dead; and what it means to be born again - we'll end this.

I'm not playing any games. I'm simply pointing out that proof texting isn't a proper form of exegesis and that Biblical Predestination and the Reformed doctrine of Predestination are not the same thing. They are two different doctrines that have been conflated. The Reformed doctrine tries to gain credence based on the fact that the word predestination appears in the Bible. If you'd like to lay out you doctrine of Predestination I'm all ears. As I've said, the Biblical doctrine of Predestination, to which I hold, is about Israel and a fulfillment of the promises that God made to Abraham.

 

[Butch5]

No, it is something you do not understand which Scripture reveals.

Spiritually DEAD.....any part of you....body, soul, spirit, word, thought, etc. ...
that IS NOT IN STANDING WITH GOD.

John 4 [24] God is a Spirit:

Matt 12 [30] He that is not with me is against me;

John 3 [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Gal 5 [17] For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit,

Mark 12 [27] He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living:

John 3 [7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

God Bless,
SBC

I don't see anything that mentions "spiritually dead."

 

[SBC]

Believers don’t need to be born again. They are justified.

Why would a just person need to be born again?

Every "person" "just" or not, is from a natural seed. And what a natural seed produces, is a natural thing. Natural things are born, live and die.

For a person who desires to have a spiritual everlasting life, he must be born from thee spiritual Seed of God.

But it a person's choice of what they choose to do.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[RisenInJesus]

Do you see what that says? It’s indicative. It doesn’t say that those who believe become born of God.

It does indicate that those who believe are...born of God. Just as...So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”(Acts 16:31) or Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”(Acts 11:16-17).

So many scriptures and the message of the NT clearly reveal that no one is born again unless they believe the gospel message concerning Jesus Christ. This is what Paul and all the apostles preached to everyone wherever they went. You can play Calvinistic word games to support the doctrines of men you have been taken captive by, but that will never change the truth of God's Word.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:13-14

 

[SBC]

I don't see anything that mentions "spiritually dead."

Right - Sorry, I used an adult Bible.

Eph 2:
1 In the past you were spiritually dead because of your disobedience and sins. GNB


God Bless,
SBC

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Right - Sorry, I used an adult Bible.

Eph 2:
1 In the past you were spiritually dead because of your disobedience and sins. GNB


God Bless,
SBC

The GNB has a very bad translation there as it adds interpretation to the text. (The Good News Bible in general is prone to this error, being a 'dynamic equivalence' translation. It even accuses Jesus of having a sinful nature in Rom 8:3.) When there is a question of translation, it is good not to just look for a term in English translations, but double check the Greek.

Ephesians 2:1 Greek Text Analysis
Ephesians 2:1 Lexicon: And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Ephesians 2:1 Interlinear: Also you -- being dead in the trespasses and the sins,

It says 'you were dead in your trespasses and sin' - no further additions needed. Furthermore, 'spiritually dead' wouldn't fit with the rest of the passage. Rather, it is saying that we walked living (not dead) by the flesh - even influenced by Satan. Yet though living, we were dead because we were by nature deserving of wrath, gratifying the cravings of the flesh.

"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to walk when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

 

[Butch5]

Right - Sorry, I used an adult Bible.

Eph 2:
1 In the past you were spiritually dead because of your disobedience and sins. GNB


God Bless,
SBC

This shows translator bias. This is a problem that English reading Christians have to deal with. The word "spiritually" is not in the Greek text of Ephesians 2:1. What we have here is translators translating the text through their presuppositions. This is exactly what I've been stressing to Marvin. People come to the text already believing their theology and then interpret the Bible based on it. By doing this they insert their theology into the translation and mislead the reader.

 

[SBC]

The GNB has a very bad translation there as it adds interpretation to the text. (The Good News Bible in general is prone to this error, being a 'dynamic equivalence' translation. It even accuses Jesus of having a sinful nature in Rom 8:3.) When there is a question of translation, it is good not to just look for a term in English translations, but double check the Greek.

Ephesians 2:1 Greek Text Analysis
Ephesians 2:1 Lexicon: And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Ephesians 2:1 Interlinear: Also you -- being dead in the trespasses and the sins,

It says 'you were dead in your trespasses and sin' - no further additions needed. Furthermore, 'spiritually dead' wouldn't fit with the rest of the passage. Rather, it is saying that we walked living (not dead) by the flesh - even influenced by Satan. Yet though living, we were dead because we were by nature deserving of wrath, gratifying the cravings of the flesh.

"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to walk when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

GNB is not my choice - but then some people do not comprehend what spiritually dead means, unless they can read the words, "spiritually Dead".

God is Spirit, and it is by His Spirit a mans spirit is quickened, and He who is not in standing with God, is spiritually dead, until he is quickened by the Holy Spirit.

God Bless,
SBC