Giants or Nephilim

Radrook said:

So what will we find in the Basque country?

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ewq1938 said:

Thanks for the info. Much appreciated.

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Remark:

Same way babies do?

Response:

That would be comparing apples and oranges.
Babies don't voluntarily transition from spirit entities to material creatures.
An explanation would require that we be familiar with exactly what a spirit is. The truth is that apart from saying that it is immaterial, we really don't know.
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Remark:
Voluntary doesn't make any sense in this context.

Response:

Why not? Why assume that they had absolutely no control whatsoever as to the type of genetic material they were impregnating the human female with?

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Remark:

Not specified.

Response:

True, but since human male attraction toward human females is a trait provided by the creator for human procreation purposes, it is logical to assume that such attraction wasn’t made inherent in spirits since God never intended spirits to mix with humans in that way.

So based on that, I would tend to say curiosity seems the choice which would absolve the creator of purposefully placing temptation before his angels by creating them with inherent needs that they were not to ever have satisfied.

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Remark
5; Yes to both.

Response: Sounds logical in since Jude quoted from it. However, it isn’t included in the regular compilation and that is what generates a certain cautious pause for some.

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6. Remark:
No, Mythology is exactly that, myth...which means it is not true.

Response: Some Christians do view the Greek Pantheon of gods and demi-gods as a reflection of a pre-flood world and others view the abnormalities mentioned as possibly part of what was going on. The Bible does say that all flesh had become detestable to God. Actually, there are extra biblical sources which describe those angels as involved in creating chimeras.

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7. Remark:

He doesn't make sin impossible else he would have and no one would be sinners.


Response:

“He doesn’t because otherwise he would have!” doesn’t make any sense.

I am referring to a type of sin and not sin in general.

There are creatures whom he has created which are limited in what they can think and do.
Correct?

Nothing is impossible for God according to the Bible: Correct?

Then that would mean that it definitely was within his power to make it absolutely impossible for angels to do what they did during the pre-flood world by infusing a strong, innate, aversion in them toward having sex with humans and by limiting their materialization powers so that it would exclude the ability to create seed which could impregnate a human female.

Remark:
No creature does that anyways.

Response:
I don’t understand your statement.

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Remark:
I think they knew exactly what 'material" they were using. I don't believe they used intercourse for this either.

Response:
Plausible, although I fail to see the reason why intercourse would not be the chosen method since the Bible tells us that they took women as wives because they found them attractive as wives.

Verses 1 & 2, "Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose."


But a new view that should be taken into consideration nevertheless.
Thanks for the feedback!

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Remark:
Angels aren't bodiless spirits so we can stop discussing them like they are. All angels have physical bodies. When they are called spirits it has nothing to do with a bodiless spirit like out inner spirit.

Response:
I never claimed that angels are bodiless. The apostle Paul makes it clear in the book to the Corinthians that heavenly creatures have bodies.

I CORINTHIANS: 15:35; “ How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come” ?

The Apostle Paul responds thusly.

I CORINYHIANS: 15: 40; “There are both heavenly bodies and earthly bodies but the glory of the heavenly is one thing, and that of the earthly is another.”

I CORINTHIANS: 15:42-44; “So it is with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown, is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.”

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Remark:
God allows things to happen that we don't fully understand. God could have destroyed all future enemies and Satan and have started the eternity with the saved overcomers long ago but for whatever reason he wants us all to go through this life and wait for that end to come to be.

Response:
True! There are things we cannot understand.
However, his allowance of the existence of a rebellion for all these thousands of years and for not immediately destroying and starting over again isn’t one of them since an explanation has been derived from reading of the scriptural account.

ewq1938 said:

You speak of creatures that become physical from non-physical and I said no such things exist.

Well, I see a contradiction in that angels were not intended to marry or procreate being there are only male angels so it makes no sense that God created them with male sexual organs. So, I believe they created an artificial "seed" to impregnate women with.

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Statement:
You speak of creatures that become physical from non-physical and I said no such things exist.

Response:

I spoke of spirit creatures materializing or assuming a material form as opposed to a spirit one.

Angels are spirits and spirits are assumed to be non material because they were created prior to our material universe and to reside in the same spiritual realm in which the creator is described as residing which is called heaven.

Hebrews 1:7 (DBY) And as to the angels he says, Who makes his angels spirits and his ministers a flame of fire;


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Statement:
Well, I see a contradiction in that angels were not intended to marry or procreate being there are only male angels so it makes no sense that God created them with male sexual organs. So, I believe they created an artificial "seed" to impregnate women with.

Response:

I agree 100% Angels are referred to as sons and always materialize as males.
In their spirit forms they are compared to brilliant stars and I’m sure that they have no male sex organs while in their natural form.

Job 2King James Version (KJV)

2 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord,....

NIV
Job 38:

“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5
Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6
On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7
while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?


The scripture below is understood to mean that a third joined Satan’s rebellion:

Rev 12 4:

3Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. 4And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.

But when they assume the human male form, what would prevent them from materializing with male sexual organs? Especially if they had rebelliously materialized with copulation with human females in mind?

So my view is that they materialized with the organs necessary for copulation and impregnation of women. Which brings in the question of the Nephilim.

But your view is also a viable one of course.

Thanks for the feedback!

So, find some 9 foot skeletons and then we can talk about the REAL world.

Remark:
Spirit here does not mean bodiless spirit.

Response: As I explained before, I never said that spirit means bodiless.
Neither do I find any contradiction between the word physical and angel or spirit.

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Remark:

If they joined a rebellion why didn't they remain in heaven to fight in the war that was about to begin?

Dan_8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

What do you think of this?


Response:

Here is the full explanation as provided by the Amplified Bible.:
http://www.topverses.com/Bible/Daniel/8/9


War in Heaven:


There is a chapter in Revelation describing a war in heaven resulting in Satan and the rebels losing and being restricted to the Earth. Please keep in mind that what is described in Revelation were things that were to transpire in the last days or in the day of the Lord as the book's introduction clearly points out.

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Remark:

They don't "assume" a male form. They are created that way.


Response: A male form minus the gonads isn't really a male form. It is a neutral form.
That would be similar to saying that there are breastless angels in the female form who lack ovaries womb and vaginas.

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Remark:

I see no evidence they are capable of materializing sexual body parts. Copulation is not the only way to impregnate a female.

Response:
Never claimed that copulation is the only way to impregnate any female either human or otherwise.
However, if the available textual evidence is brought to bear, then we do get the distinct impression that much more than simple insemination was involved. You see, many sources indicate that actual sexual fornication or defilement via unnatural sex took place and not just insemination. Please consider the sources below:


1 Enoch 12:4: "Go and make known to the Watchers of heaven who have abandoned the high heaven, the holy eternal place, and have defiled themselves with women."

1 Enoch 15:3, 7: "For what reason have you abandoned the high, holy, and eternal heaven; and slept with women and defiled yourselves with the daughters of the people....I did not make wives for you for the proper dwelling place of spiritual beings of heaven is heaven."

1 Enoch 10:11-12: "Bind Semjaza and the others who are with him, who fornicated with the women, that they will die together with them in all their defilement...Bind them for seventy generations underneath the rocks of the ground until the day of their judgment and of their consummation, until the eternal judgment is concluded.

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Remark:

The Nephilim are actually the angels themselves, from the root word Naphal meaning to fall....where the term fallen angel originates.

It is the Gibbor/mighty men that were born from the Nephilim.


Response:

Well, not everyone agrees with that specific viewpoint that you prefer:
In fact, the only translation that seems to be either fallen ones or those falling upon their enemies is Aquila's translation. All the others disagree.

Etymology Nephilim:

The Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon gives the meaning of Nephilim as "giants"

The majority of ancient biblical versions, including the Septuagint, Theodotion, Latin Vulgate, Samaritan Targum, Targum Onkelos and Targum Neofiti, interpret the word to mean "giants". Symmachus translates it as "the violent ones" and Aquila's translation has been interpreted to mean either "the fallen ones" or "the ones falling [upon their enemies]".

The word Gibborim merely means mighty. Anything beyond that is based on personal conclusions and not because the word demands it: Please read the excerpt below:

Excerpt

Gibborim (גּבּר, גּבּור) is a Hebrew word that can be glossed "mightiest" which is an intensive for gabar (גּבר) that can be glossed "mighty". Many times it is used of people who are valiant, mighty, or of great stature. There is some confusion about Gibborim as a class of beings because of its use in Genesis 6:4 which describes the Nephilim as mighty (gibborim).

The word gibborim is used in the Tanakh over 150 times and applied to men as well as lions (Proverbs 30:30), hunters (Genesis 10:9), soldiers (Jeremiah 51:30) and leaders (Daniel 11:3).

In modern Hebrew the word "gibbor" (the singular form of gibborim), equates with 'hero' (if noun), or 'brave' (if adjective).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibborim_(biblical)


Nephilim Presence after the Flood?

Because rebel angels are described as being imprisoned immediately after the Noachian Flood, some Christians believe that they could not have been the Nephilim mentioned after the flood nor could they have produced Nephilim after the Flood since they are restricted.

Jude 6: "And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, he has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day."

2 Peter 2:4: "For God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into Tartarus and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment."

1 Enoch 10:4-6: " Bind Azazel hand and foot and throw him into the darkness....He covered his face in order that he may not see light; and in order that he may be sent into the fire on the great day of judgment."

1 Enoch 10:11-12 : "Bind Semjaza and the others who are with him, who fornicated with the women, that they will die together with them in all their defilement...Bind them for seventy generations underneath the rocks of the ground until the day of their judgment and of their consummation, until the eternal judgment is concluded."

ewq1938 said:

I assume you are unaware that while Nephilim is found 3 times in scripture, it is spelled differently one of the times. Some modern scholars believe one spelling denotes the fallen angels and the second spelling refers to their children, also called Gibbor in scripture.


Gen 6:4 There were giants Nopheleem in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.


Here the word is spelled in a way to be pronounced "Nopheleem". The other way it's spelled to be pronounced "Nepheeleem"


And here we have the two different spellings:


Num_13:33 And there we saw the giants Nepheeleem, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants Nopheleem: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

To verify the spelling differences you will need access to a sophisticated tool or even biblehub.com or blueletterbible.com should have it but some familiarity with Hebrew will be needed.


I was on a forum where some Hebrew scholars were discussing this and they believed the different spelling denoted different "people/beings" so they believed the Nepheeleem (literal giants) were the children of the Nopheleem (the Sons of god or fallen angels)


I cant post Hebrew fonts without a link so I will use the English rendering.


Hebrew is written and read backwards to how English is.

So, Nephilim would appear as [font size=4]m ' l ' f n[/font]

The two marks that are this symbol, ' , are consonants that act as vowels called Yods.

Dr. Heiser:





[font size=4]m ' l ' f n[/font] is to be pronounced as "neh – fee – leem" which in the English has become Nephilim although our I's do not help us pronounce it correctly. It should be "Nepheeleem" or "Nefeeleem" to sound as the Hebrew does.

[font size=4]m ' l ' f n[/font] only appears ONE TIME in the manuscripts.


Numbers 13:33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

The underlined word is where it only appears in all of scripture.

"But EWQ1938, the Strong's concordance shows "Nephiyl" three times!"

This may come as a shock to some, but the Strong's concordance is an elementary tool for beginners when it comes to the original languages. It was never meant to be an advanced tool. It doesn't help in such detail or depth as I believe is being made clear. It's a great tool, but no help on this level. (believe me, I have had to study a lot just to grasp this much which is elementary and basic to any scholar or advanced Hebrew student. I am humbled by the depth and complexity of the Hebrew language)

Besides [font size=4]m ' l ' f n[/font], then we have [font size=4]m ' l f n[/font] which is found twice in the manuscipts:


Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Numbers 13:33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.


[font size=4]m ' l f n[/font] is to be pronounced "no-phel-leem" which in the English should be spelled "Nophelim".

This pronunciation is due to two reasons. One is the single Yod, "ee" sound. But the "No-phel" sound also is due to different markings that appear above and under some letters called "nikuds". These are to aid in pronunciation of Hebrew words. You will need a manuscript or a good interlinear to see these "dots".

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I will do some research on the words that you provided.
Thanks for the fine decent discussion.

God bless!

dysert said:

I don't. The reason being that Mark 12:25 tells us that angels don't marry. I Infer from that that they are incapable of having sex. Also, angels are spirit beings who just take on physical form when needed. A spirit doesn't have the parts necessary for having sex.

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Why do you infer that?

Mark 12:25(CJB)

25 For when people rise from the dead, neither men nor women marry — they are like angels in heaven.

Do you mean that when you are in heaven you will be incapable of procreation? Not at all. It simply says that it does not happen.

The Word does not say angels lack the necessary plumbing.
Angels are certainly capable of taking on a solid form...But you'll believe that when one whops you alongside the haircut with a big hand.

Gentle Lamb said:

Does anybody believe that the giants aka nephilim mentioned in Genesis 6:1-8 were the hybrid offspring of fallen angels and human women? Why or why not?

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While the giants were Nephilim, not all Nephilim were giants. The word Nephilim is a ts (Raphaim) were only a part of that. The angels 'sinned' against every living animal on the planet. Hence unicorns, centaurs, fauns, the manticore, and other nasty creatures. All of these mythical creatures exist from the fallen angels fooling around.

pshun2404 said:

"Like begets like" is a principle of sympathetic magic (not found in the Bible), where did YOU get the notion? Human bodies are capable of producing offspring...angels when manifest in human form they have human bodies...there is absolutely nothing in scripture that says they are not complete with all the necessary equipment. If their forms are not fully human it would mean the form (body) was not "human" (because there are no halves).

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Genesis 1:24

Genesis 1:25
God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:11
Then God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them"; and it was so.

Genesis 1:12
The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.Genesis 1:21
God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:24
Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind"; and it was so.

Genesis 6:20
"Of the birds after their kind, and of the animals after their kind, of every creeping thing of the ground after its kind, two of every kind will come to you to keep them alive.Genesis 7:14
they and every beast after its kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth after its kind, and every bird after its kind, all sorts of birds.
Leviticus 11:14
and the kite and the falcon in its kind,

Leviticus 11:15
every raven in its kind,

Leviticus 11:16
and the ostrich and the owl and the sea gull and the hawk in its kind,

Leviticus 11:19
and the stork, the heron in its kinds, and the hoopoe, and the bat.

Leviticus 11:22
'These of them you may eat: the locust in its kinds, and the devastating locust in its kinds, and the cricket in its kinds, and the grasshopper in its kinds.

Leviticus 11:29
'Now these are to you the unclean among the swarming things which swarm on the earth: the mole, and the mouse, and the great lizard in its kinds,

Yeah..You're right. Like begets like is not in the bible. LOL