I said this:
"Jesus very specifically taught eternal security. He said:
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. Jn 10:28"
"Snatch", in Greek, is "harpazo"; sieze or remove forcibly. Same as "caught up" (rapture!) in 1Thess4:15-17. No ONE can FORCE us; we very much can remove ourselves by apostasy.
You've missed the point of John 10:28 competely.
The basis for never perishing is simply to be given eternal life. Do you believe what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life?
Now, the only question is: when is eternal life possessed by a person?
Jesus already answered that question a number of times previously in John's gospel.
For example,
John 3:
15 that
everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that
whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you,
whoever hears my word and
believes him who sent me
has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the
one who believes has eternal life.
1 John 5:13 - I write these things to
you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that
you have eternal life.
All these verses testify to the fact that whoever believes possesses (right now or currently), eternal life.
That obviously means that the believer possesses eternal life WHEN they initially believe.
So, the promise of never perishing is made to people WHEN they initially believe and are given eternal life.
What does Revelation 3 mean to you?
"Those WHO overcomes I will NOT BLOT from My Book of Life".
"He WHO overcomes I will make a pillar in My temple."
"He WHO overcomes I will grant to sit on My throne."
"So HOLD FAST to what you have so no one will STEAL YOUR CROWN!"
What crown do you think they can steal, FG?
These verses ALL refer to eternal rewards, not life. The phrase about "not blotting out" is a technique known as "litotes". Look it up. It's a form of understatement to emphasize the opposite.
I then said this:
"Jesus' promise is found in #2 above. We are saved by GRACE, and we are kept by that same GRACE. Period."
Absolutely no, my friend -- we are saved by grace (God's!) THROUGH FAITH (ours!).
Eph 2:8 does NOT support the claim that we are kept by our own faith. If that were so, Jesus COULD NOT HAVE made His promise in John 10:28, which it seems you don't believe to be true. But is.
Have you read Robertson's commentary on Rm1:16-17? God's righteousness is revealed from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith; we are to live BY faith.
Does the verse say we are to live by faith for salvation? No, it does not. Please don't add to God's Word. Let the Word speak to you. Don't make up stuff.
What does Jude20-21 mean to you? "BUilding yourselves in holy faith, KEEP YOURSELVES in God's love!"
This speaks of spiritual growth. Not "how to maintain your salvation".
You're familiar with Luke15?
Very.
Jesus said God's gift is EXACTLY LIKE a coin THAT CAN BE LOST! The Prodigal story clearly taught that "we can fall"!
You've missed the point of the parable. The son and father REMAIN son and father throughout the parable. What was "lost", or "died" wasn't relationship, since they remained son and father, but fellowship between them.
Are you familiar with 1 John 1? Count the # of times John mentioned "fellowship". It's very important. And cound the number of times it is used in the NT.
I then said:
"There are NO verses that speak of throwing away eternal life, or giving it away, or losing it."
In the book I wrote, I list ONE HUNDRED AND ONE.[/QUOTE]
Without a doubt, none of your list says what you think they say. If even one did, then Jesus' promise about never perishing on the basis of being given eternal life cannot be true. And we all know what that would mean. It would mean He lied to us. Is that your view? It HAS to be, if you think salvation can be lost.
And that's not the end. I've posted a couple here! The post right above yours has a signature quoting 2Tim2:15, "dokimos approved". May we discuss 1Cor9:25-27, and 2Cor13:5 "adokimos"?
I failed to find anything about losing salvation in 2 Tim 2:15.
" Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth."
I don't see the word 'salvation', or 'eternal life' or ANY reference to losing either.
What I DO see is an emphasis on studying (by doing my best to present mysealf to God) in order to be approved. In which case I will not be ashamed because I correctly handle the word of truth.
Those who believe that salvation can be lost are NOT approved because they haven't done their best to be approved or corrrectly handled the word of truth.
In fact, they have rejected the promise of Jesus in John 10:28 about those who are given eternal life shall never perish.
Can we REALLY become "castaway"? (Yes!!!)
What the word does NOT mean is to lose one's saved state.
Then I said this:
"These verses have nothing to do with losing salvation. It's about reward: to reign with Christ. For those who endure. For those who don't endure, they will be DENIED the privilege of reigning with Christ."
Really. What sins are "acceptable" to Jesus and God, so we'll keep eternal life but miss out on reigning with Him?
How in the world could one come up with the silly notion that I even hinted that there are "acceptable" sins? Ridiculous. It's just that you've failed to fulfill 2 Tim 2:15 by not correctly handling the word of truth and therefore have no clue about eternal rewards being on the basis of faithfulness and obedience. The OSNAS group thinks faithfulness and obedience is the basis for maintaining salvation. Which disrespects the promise of Jesus in John 10:28.
1Jn1:3 says salvation is FELLOWSHIP with Jesus; will Jesus inhabit us as we walk in sin?
More failure to fulfill 2 Tim 2:15.
" We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ."
First, this was written to saved people. That means those who HAVE a relationship with God through His Son. Fellowship speaks to the quality (or lack thereof) of that relationship.
Let's take the physical relationship between father and child (prodigal son parable). The physical relationship between father and child is permanent. iow, once born, neither the child nor the parents can change that. The DNA is physical and permanent.
There is a parallel in the spiritual. It is God who gives us new birth or regeneration. This makes God our Father. This relationship is just as permanent and is based on being born again of imperishable seed (1 Pet 1:23). Which directly affirms the promise of Jesus in John 10:28.
Now, is this relationship between father and son always pleasant and wonderful? Or is it possible that a "rift" can develop between father and son? Of course. Duh.
That is WHY believers must ensure they are IN fellowship with God and Christ. How does one do this? According to 1 John 1:9, through confession of sin.
(No one claims to be "sinless"; but we do not WALK in sin.)
As long as a believer either grieves (Eph 5:18) or quenches (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit, they ARE out of fellowship and cannot do anything but sin.
The ONLY time a believer cannot sin is when they are IN fellowship (1 John 3:9).
How about that -- we can DENY Jesus but that does not connect with Matt10:33; we are saved "through faith" but are still saved if we are faithless. Not meaning to offend you; what do you think "salvation" is?
The only thing that offends me is when believers deny the truth of John 10:28; that those Jesus has given eternal life (at the MOMENT they intially believe) shall never perish. That is offensive to me. It shows a total failure to fulfill 2 Tim 2:15.
How about the entire letter of Galatians? Those who ARE KNOWN BY GOD (4:9), can become SEVERED from Christ and FALLEN from GRACE. 5:4. What do you think he meant?
Does anything in Galatians say we can be severed from salvation? No, of course not.
So, what can be severed is fellowship, JUST LIKE the stupid prodigal.
Please reread 1Jn5:11-13; he who has Jesus has eternal life.
I have and I love the verses. Now, study to present your own self as approved to God and apply v.13 to John 10:28. Those who have eternal life have been GIVEN eternal life. By whom? By Jesus Himself. And we know what He says about those He gives eternal life. They shall NEVER PERISH. But it appears that you don't believe that.
Now -- 2Jn1:7-9, he who goes too far (goes out from us!) and does not abide in the teachings, no longer has Jesus or the Father! What did he mean?
It certainly can't mean he lost salvation. Or Jesus was a LIAR in John 10:28.
Here's the fact: when a believer either doesn't believe, or no longer believes what Jesus promises, IN THAT SENSE, no longer has Him.
You've got a huge problem. If salvation can be lost, then Jesus is a LIAR. Simpe as that. But since Jesus is NOT a liar, salvation cannot be lost. Simple as that.
What are we to guard in 2Tim1:12-13? "Hold fast the sound words" -- isn't that the same as in 1Tim4:16, "abide in Jesus and His teachings and SAVE YOURSELVES"?
One has to ask themselves, 'save yourselves'...from WHAT? What's the context?
12 That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet this is no cause for shame, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until that day.
13 What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.
14 Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us.
Just as I thought; you missed a verse, which is v.14.
What is crystal clear in these verses is that there are NO words about losing salvation anywhere.
Now, from v.12, exactly what has Paul "entrusted to Him until that day"? His very soul, of course. And Paul says that Christ "is able to guard" what Paul entrusted to Him. This is eternal security.
Interesting that you didn't include v.14. It's directly related to another passage written by Paul in Eph 1:13-14 -
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
Notice the "past tense" "when you believed", or "having believed". As a result of a point in time of believing, the one who has believed IS sealed with the Holy Spirit IN HIM. The believer is placed in union with Christ.
v.14 explains that this sealing is a deposit which guarantees our inheritance "until the redemption of God's possession (believers).
Again, eternal security.
From God's side, He will not "revoke". But what about from our side?
Please proceed to provide any verse that teaches that a person can revoke their eternal life.
Acts20:28-31 "savage wolves will NOT SPARE THE FLOCK; and perverse men will draw away EVEN DISCIPLES." Any understanding to make "flock", unsaved?
Nope. Or Jesus' promise in John 10:28 cannot be true. But Jesus isn't a LIAR.
Are they really in danger? (Any way to make it "NO"?)
YES, everyone is in danger from FALSE DOCTRINE. Which is what "savage wolves" try to do.
What about the disciples that can be drawn away? Can we stamp verses like these, with "NOT REALLY"?
Anyone can be drawn away from true doctrine. Those who believe salvation can be lost have rejected Jesus' promise, and as such, have been drawn away to false doctrine.
Again meaning no offense -- do you have enough ink for the "NOT-REALLY" stamp? You are reading more and more verses about "falling-from-salvation".
I've seen NO verses about falling from salvation. That is just made up.
What did 1Tim4:1 mean, "many will FALL AWAY FROM THE FAITH, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons"? They were NOT REALLY saved (stamp!), or they did NOT REALLY fall away (stamp!)? Again -- not intending insult; these verses only go away under the NOT REALLY stamp. But it's not credible.
OK. To fall from the faith, or wander from the faith isn't the same as falling from salvation. But that's your opinion. But a wrong one. Did Jesus LIE in John 10:28? Of course not. But you don't believe what He promised if you think salvation can be lost.
I then said this:
"v.14 says this seal is a guarantee of our inheritance for the day of redemption."
We can look up the Greek if you want; I think it's "earnest", which every real-estate agent knows is forfeitable...
So, it seems that what God GUARANTEES can be forfeitable. Absolutely astounding!
Apparently you think that God goes back on His promises. Well, He doesn't.
In fact, it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to lie.
" God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which
it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged." Heb 6:18
Jesus is God. He promises that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.
One of my deepest desires is to have you as a brother or sister with Jesus forever; what you believe is between you and Him. But what I'm citing for you, does not allow "OSAS".
Your response to Scripture shows your failure to fulfill 2 Tim 2:15. They demonstrate a failure to grasp the basics of spiritual growth, confession of sin, and the promise of eternal rewards on the basis of faithfulness and obedience.