IS THE HUMAN WILL FREE TO CHOOSE JESUS?

Si_monfaith said:

Some believe that the human will is free to choose Jesus. Doesn't this belief betray one's trust in his will rather than the will of God in order to be saved?

Click to expand...

If we are not free to make choices, then how can the White Throne Judgment be anything other than a kangaroo court?

RESPONSE TO POST#61
Q:...the (Great) White Throne Judgment?"

A:
Revelation 20 (NASB)
11 Then I saw a Great White Throne and Him (TRI-UNE GOD?) who sat upon it,
from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them...
15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the (Lamb's) "book of life", (saved believers)
he was thrown into the "lake of fire".

This is the SENTENCING of UN-believers!!.
BELIEVERS are NOT "judged" as to their SPIRITUAL POSITION in Christ.

John 3:18
He who believes in Him is not judged;(spiritual POSITION)
he who does not believe has been judged already,
because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten (not made,unique) Son of God.

Only the spiritual WORKS (PRACTICES) in or out of the will of God are judged.

JUDGMENT of the Believer's WORKS

2 Corinthians 5: 1-15 (NIV) + 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (NIV) + Romans 14:10b,12 (1-23)

10 For we (BELIEVERS) must all appear before the "Judgment (bema = awards platform) Seat of Christ",
that each one may receive what is due him for the things done (WORKS) while in the BODY, whether good or bad....

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (NIV)...Judgment of the BELIEVER'S WORKS
1 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ....(salvation)
12 If any man BUILDS on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 his WORK will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it (WORKS) to light.
It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's WORK.
14 If what he has BUILT survives, he will receive his REWARD.(CROWNS)
15 If it (WORK) is burned up, he will suffer LOSS;
he himself will be SAVED, but only as one escaping through the flames.(miraculous delivery)

Romans 14:10b,12...BELIEVERS: Do not judge "one another"
10b ...For we will all stand before "the judgment seat of God".
12 So then, each of us will be accountable to God....
for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

Si_monfaith said:

Some believe that the human will is free to choose Jesus. Doesn't this belief betray one's trust in his will rather than the will of God in order to be saved?

Click to expand...

The definitions you are using are too vague to make any judgement call over whether someone claiming human free will is actually trusting in his own will or not.

Namely, how are you defining free will? Are you defining it as 'humans can do anything that all that they want to (including fly or make their own planets), 'humans are free to think and act in response to opportunities and stimuli within their physical, moral, and intellectual limits' or 'humans can pick between some limited options?' Etc.

Likewise, how would you define the converse of free will? Is it 'humans have no true choices as everything is predetermined,' 'humans are free to think and act within their physical, moral, and intellectual limits,' or 'every stimuli/opportunity is predetermined so that a given human will only respond one way,' etc.?

Without precise agreement on what is meant by these terms (As they are not found directly in scripture) one cannot test them against scripture.

For an example, both the Calvinist view of total depravity, the Arminian view of Total depravity (and most other Christians not holding to either systemized view) actually agree that the human will is neither completely free nor completely bound, but is a type of limited will: That humans are free to think and act in response to opportunities and stimuli within their physical, moral, and intellectual limits.

So the real difference is not on this basic understanding of a human's interaction with the world and ability to make choices within limits, but the disagreement on what those limits are.

For example, both a Calvinist and Arminian would hold that man is incapable of responding to the gospel message in faith. The Arminian would believe that God gave a common grace to all through the death of Christ (Jn 12:32, Jn 16:18) that they could receive the message and believe. The Calvinist would believe that God only gives some select few, His chosen elect, some method of being able to respond in faith (such as incontrovertible evidence, or regeneration, or being granted faith outright - there is variation within the view.)

Others, who hold to neither systemized theory, might disagree that man is incapable of responding to the gospel message in faith and that faith was specifically chosen by God as the method by which we receive eternal life precisely because it wasn't a dead work beyond the ability of man (Deut 30:11-14, Rom 10:9-13, John 3:14-21, Luke 11:5-13, Heb 11:13-16, Gal 3:24, etc.) They might hold that a rejection of faith is not due to inability or limitation, but the person's own refusal or love of evil ( (Rom 2:14-16, John 5:40, Matt 23:37, Rom 10:17, John 8:24, Jn 3:20, etc)

So the real dilemna is not that of your first question (Free will or not) but specifically whether or not one of man's limitations is that he cannot receive the message and respond in faith; and if he can't, whether God gives a special grace to some or common grace to all to overcome that.

Moreover, isn't the view that the human will is free leads one to trust in his/her works to be saved rather than trust only in the works of Jesus to be saved?

Click to expand...

No. Unless someone's view on free will is literally that man can achieve salvation via dead works or by his own merit and accomplishment (which is not a position Christian's hold) then none of the various views on free will or not equate to "trusting in works."

The idea that man must have faith to be saved is not trusting in works, either, for faith is not a dead work, and the requirement that we have faith 'shuts out' boasting according to scripture.
What does it mean in Rom 3:27 that boasting is excluded because of the law that requires faith?

Are there any views in Christianity that address this issue apart from unconditional election, conditional election and the works-based salvation of Catholicism?

Click to expand...

If you are asking if there are other systemized views besides Calvinism, Arminianism, and Catholicism, there are a number: Amyraldism, Molinism, Thomism, etc.

And many Christians hold to *none* of the systemized theories and have a broad spectrum of beliefs.

What does truth in the Bible say as to whether the human will is free or not

Click to expand...

That is the real question, isn't it? The Bible teaches man is limited by his physical nature (can't reproduce after a different kind, for example), moral nature (can't achieve salvation via his own works, corrupted by sin at the fall, etc.), intellect (can't conceive of the secret things of God, can't know all things, etc.), opportunity (can't believe if they never hear the gospel message), etc. Yet it also shows people making choices to obey or disobey, seek God or seek the flesh, follow wickedness or seek truth, have faith or refuse to believe, etc.

So it teaches neither a completely free will nor a completely bound will.

Whether humans are free to respond to the gospel in faith, however, is a more particular debate that has been going on in the church for centuries.

I personally believe that God, in His sovereignty, has given man the free choice to respond to the gospel in faith:

#1 God, by His sovereign will, gave man the ability to choose whether to obey or disobey. (Deut 30:11-19, Josh 34:19, etc.) For salvation, man can either respond to the gospel in belief or refuse to believe it. (Mk 16:16)

#2 God, by His sovereign power and decree, set up boundaries/limits in which people can act. Some of these boundaries are physical, such as God creating us with opposable thumbs, but the inability to fly or breath in vacuum. Some are mental, such as granting man the ability to reason higher than the animals, but not giving man the complete and perfect knowledge of God. Some of these boundaries are moral, such as fallen man's inability to be perfectly righteous, but that man can still follow the laws of God written on their hearts (Rom 2:14-15.)

Due to these boundaries, man cannot physically work for salvation or accomplish his own deliverance. He cannot reach salvation via his own mental enlightenment. And man cannot morally achieve salvation via his own righteousness. In all these ways, it is impossible.

However, God in His sovereign mercy, knew that man could not achieve salvation within the limits he had bounded man and so created another way - faith! Rather than man having to be righteous, an impossibility, Christ would come to be righteousness on their behalf, and God would credit that righteousness to the account of any who would believe.

"However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5

"For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8-9
What does it mean that it is by grace we have been saved, through faith, and that this is not of ourselves but is the gift of God?

#3 God, by His character and wisdom, set the standard of righteousness. (Rom 1:17, Psalm 18:30, Eph 2:3, Psalm 119:3, Deut 32:4, Psalm 145:17, Isaiah 5:16, Isaiah 51:6, Dan 9:14, Jer 9:24.) If God hadn't reached out to man with a way to be declared righteous through faith, not works, then salvation would have been impossible for man. Fortunately for us, He did!

#4 God, in His sovereign wisdom and power, set the rules by which deliverance, forgiveness, and pardon are obtained (Num 25:22-29, Jer 26:1-6, II Chron 7:14, John 3:16, Heb 10:11-18, Luke 4:14-21, Heb 9:22, Matt 5:29, Isa 45:22-25) Mercifully, God offers forgiveness and deliverance to those who place their faith in Christ!

#5 God, by His sovereign power and grace, gave us everything necessary to respond to the gospel in faith through the sufficient work of Christ on the cross.

He gave us:

- Christ; God revealed. (Heb 1:3, I Cor 1:4-5, John 4:10, Jn 12:46-32, Jn 8:12)

"There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man." Jn 1:9

Without this revelation of Christ, limited man would have never known the way of salvation.

- The offer of salvation to all people in Christ: (Titus 2:11, John 12:3-33, Matt 4:12-17, Psalm 67:1-3)

Without this gracious offer, none would have the opportunity to be saved.

- Christ delivered to death that we might live: (Rom 4:25, Gal 2:20-21, Rom 5:6-8)

Without Christ's work on the cross, there would be no atonement possible.

- The gospel proclaimed (Col 1:23, Rom 10:17, Gal 3:2-5, Heb 4:2)

Without the good news and testimony of the gospel, we would have nothing to respond to in faith.

- The general conviction of the Spirit (John 16:7-11, I Cor 14:24-25)

Without this conviction of sin, we would not know our need for a Saviour.

- The testimony and light of the church (I Cor 10:33, Matt 5:13-14)

Without this continued grace, most men would never hear of Christ.

****

See also:
How are we to understand the sequence and part that man plays in his salvation? (sequence/part man plays in salvation)
How does God's sovereignty work together with free will?

Si_monfaith said:

Some believe that the human will is free to choose Jesus. Doesn't this belief betray one's trust in his will rather than the will of God in order to be saved?

Moreover, isn't the view that the human will is free leads one to trust in his/her works to be saved rather than trust only in the works of Jesus to be saved?

Are there any views in Christianity that address this issue apart from unconditional election, conditional election and the works-based salvation of Catholicism?

What does truth in the Bible say as to whether the human will is free or not?

Click to expand...

Psalm chapter 94 verse 10
Does he who disciplines nations not punish? Does he who teaches mankind lack knowledge?

1 Peter chapter 4 verse 8
Love covers a great many sins.

Romans chapter 2 verse 11
For God does not show favoritism.

It wouldn't be right for God to punish for something he has done, but you can find verses that say either side.

Si_monfaith said:

Some believe that the human will is free to choose Jesus. Doesn't this belief betray one's trust in his will rather than the will of God in order to be saved?
Moreover, isn't the view that the human will is free leads one to trust in his/her works to be saved rather than trust only in the works of Jesus to be saved?
Are there any views in Christianity that address this issue apart from unconditional election, conditional election and the works-based salvation of Catholicism?
What does truth in the Bible say as to whether the human will is free or not?

Click to expand...

Does God predestine some part of humanity to salvation and another part to damnation and there is nothing either group can do about it? Many arguments have been presented in support of this.
.....But, note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, not just an elect, predestined, chosen, few, was for all of Israel and all of Judah to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments presented, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
.....This passage very much speaks to the issue of salvation, God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”
Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

Instrument150 said:

Not sure about this. I know I didn't feel like I had much choice after I was revealed the Glory of Christ. Maybe some people don't get this revelation, idk.

Click to expand...

I have a friend who, after coming to an understanding of the gospel and agreeing with it (believing the message) still refused to actually come to Christ and repent/turn to God for about six months. Her reasoning was that if the Calvinist theory of irresistible grace was true, then she would not be able to delay or 'resist.'

After months of this holding out and purposefully resisting, she did finally reason that that was a very stupid excuse not to come to Christ. If she died the next day, explaining to God that she was disproving Calvinism by holding out wasn't going to keep her from hell. So, she did come to Christ/die to self and turn to God/life by the Spirit in faith at that juncture - from the realization that holding out was risky and dumb, not from any further revelation of Jesus' glory or further understanding of the gospel.

On a Star Trek episode, their is a time traveler from the future who came back in time to visit the enterprise ans said he was only there to observe and not interfere... They had a plan to try and save a world, but it was a very risky plan, and it could have gone either way, ending up in overwhelming success or utter disaster... And Picard is talking to this man from the future and is getting very upset with him, cause he won't tell him anything, and then says and concludes, since the guy wasn't going to help him, he was just gonna choose what he was going to choose all along as if the guy wasn't even there...

Picard was very frustrated with him, but said since he wasn't going to help him choose, then he would just have to choose without him, and said he chooses to try the plan anyway, even though the man's presence meant that this event was either going to end in overwhelming success or utter failure, or he wouldn't be there to witness a "historical event"...

Anyhow, the Father is not telling us, I think... But, he has his reasons, just like the time traveler did with Picard...

God Bless!

Si_monfaith said:

Some believe that the human will is free to choose Jesus. Doesn't this belief betray one's trust in his will rather than the will of God in order to be saved?

Moreover, isn't the view that the human will is free leads one to trust in his/her works to be saved rather than trust only in the works of Jesus to be saved?

Are there any views in Christianity that address this issue apart from unconditional election, conditional election and the works-based salvation of Catholicism?

What does truth in the Bible say as to whether the human will is free or not?

Click to expand...

when it comes to such things, we have first to seek the One Who is really the true God by invoking, avouching the perfect truth/righteousness before and praying to Him, then we have to be and stay faithful to Him working for overall salvation in His Son, and only then there can be (an increase in) hastening of salvation in Him, including appearance, presence and increase of free will in humans to choose the true Lord Jesus Christ

Blessings

Neogaia777 said:

If they were not made for the Grace of God, but, who can judge such matters, except God alone, we cannot tell...

God Bless!

Click to expand...

my comparison to the Islamic tradition shows harshly an uncaring God creating people destined for hell. Your reply was that God is sovereign and has the freedom to do what he wants referencing vessels of dishonor leaving the suggestion that vessels of dishonor are liken to these people created for hell however when pressed you back off.

A sovereign God has the authority to do as he pleases but he also has a recognizable revealed nature that we can point to and even use to infer his design. Vessels created irreconcilable seem to go against this nature and design. Is God not sovereign that he can forgive whom he wills even the dishonorable vessels? He is but this too has an absence of God's revealed nature and presents God as ultimately unknowable as in the end he will do as he pleases not as scripture reveals. God is not imprisoned by scripture but uses scripture to reveal his nature to us and his plan of salvation; we can only go by this and what God does otherwise of a fruitful discussion

Si_monfaith said:

Some believe that the human will is free to choose Jesus. Doesn't this belief betray one's trust in his will rather than the will of God in order to be saved?

Moreover, isn't the view that the human will is free leads one to trust in his/her works to be saved rather than trust only in the works of Jesus to be saved?

Are there any views in Christianity that address this issue apart from unconditional election, conditional election and the works-based salvation of Catholicism?

What does truth in the Bible say as to whether the human will is free or not?

Click to expand...

Tell us exactly what you mean and don't mean by "free".

That is where you are going here is it not?

Si_monfaith said:

What is the problem in asserting the freedom of the human will?
It is feared that if the human will is free, and since humans commit acts of sins, this would render God as the originator of evil/acts of sin.

Reply:
God says that He creates evil (which refers to sinful acts also because Adam and Eve chose kge-knowledge of good and evil, which eventually led them to violations of the law and which is committing acts of sin. Nakedness was considered an act of sin after they chose kge) in Isaiah 45:7 because humans have the kge. Without kge, humans cannot know that something is evil or a sinful act.
So if one is set free from the kge as per Romans 7:4,6, the kge is taken away from him (as knowledge of what an act of sin is, comes from the law-Romans 3:20) and he cannot know what an act of sin is, and therefore he will not be worried about God creating evil/sinful acts. Now, God says that He creates or authors evil/sinful acts to demonstrate to the elect the difference between the life under kge and the life under His grace. Under kge there is death whereas under grace there is eternal life.

Click to expand...

God most certainly does not create moral evil! Please check the Hebrew term used in Is 45:7. Ra there is calamity or distress, not moral evil. The Hebrew parallelism also shows this. The KJV renders it 'evil' because that was once a common English synonym for calamity and disaster.

Furthermore, how do you see Rom 7:4-6 as meaning that our knowledge of good and evil is taken away? If anything, our discernment increases by the Spirit when we become believers. (James 4:17, Gal 5:16, etc.) We do not cease knowing what sin is! Rom 7:4-6 is about our freedom from the law, which only brought condemnation. It isn't saying we stop knowing right from wrong.

"Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will." Rom 12:2

RESPONSE to Post#68: Q:" #1:we have first to seek the One Who is really the true God by invoking, avouching the perfect truth/righteousness before and praying to Him."

A1: False Doctrine: There are no "steps" to salvation...
Only John 3 as explained in Ephesians 2 is necessary.
BELIEVE unto the SALVATION EVENT...then...FOLLOW unto the SANCTIFICATION PROCESS. (Matthew 16: 24-27; Luke 14:25-33 (NASB))

Q#2: "THEN we have to be and stay faithful to Him (GOD) working for "overall salvation" in His Son,"

A2: False Doctrine:
"staying faithful", "standing firm","working FOR", "enduring to the end", etc. as CONDITIONS FOR salvation are false doctrines of "WORKS".

The SALVATION offered by Jesus - PAST completed TENSE! (AORIST!) 0615

John 5:24 (all NASB) “Truly, truly, I (Jesus) say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but HAS PASSED out of death into life.

Ephesians 2:4-10
(by grace you HAVE BEEN saved),

Luke 19:1-10...[ Zaccheus Converted ]
9 And Jesus said to him,
“Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.
10 For the Son of Man "has come" to seek and to save that which was lost.”

Mark 2:17
And hearing this, Jesus said to them,
“It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick;
I did not "come to call" the righteous, but sinners.”

John 3
17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world,
but that the world might "be saved" through Him.
18 He who believes in Him is not judged;
he who does not believe has been judged already,
because he "has not believed" in the name of the ONLY begotten Son of God.

John 6
35 Jesus said to them,
“I am the bread of life;
he who COMES to Me WILL not hunger,
and he who BELIEVES in Me WILL never thirst.
36 But I said to you that you have SEEN Me, and yet do not BELIEVE.
40 For this is the will of My Father,
that everyone who beholds the Son and BELIEVES in Him "WILL (is certain to) have "eternal life"",
and I Myself will raise him up "on the last day".”

John 10
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I "GIVE eternal life to them", and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who HAS GIVEN them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.” (IN SPIRITUAL ESSENCE AND NATURE!)

John 17:2-3 ...Jesus' High Priestly Prayer to the Father about Jesus' followers
even as You gave Him authority over all flesh,
that to all whom You "have given" Him,
He MAY GIVE "eternal life".
This is "eternal life",
that they MAY KNOW You, the only true God, and
(KNOW) Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

John 1:12,14 (NIV)
Yet to all who "RECEIVED" him,
to those who "BELIEVED" in His name, (Jesus the Christ)He gave the right to become CHILDREN of God...(SAVED BELIEVERS)

Q3: "only then there can be (an increase in) hastening of salvation in Him, including appearance, presence and increase of "free will" in humans to choose the true Lord Jesus Christ""

A3: False doctrine.

God gave Mankind (and angels) the spiritual gift of "free will" from the beginning of Creation.
Angels CHOSE to rise above God.
A&E CHOSE to disobey God.

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...the-all-everything-attributes-of-god.8011130/

The true doctrine of "FREE WILL"??: Biblical examples??

Gods Grace vs Free Will

Ron Gurley said:

RESPONSE TO POST#61
Q:...the (Great) White Throne Judgment?"

A:
Revelation 20 (NASB)
11 Then I saw a Great White Throne and Him (TRI-UNE GOD?) who sat upon it,
from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them...
15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the (Lamb's) "book of life", (saved believers)
he was thrown into the "lake of fire".

This is the SENTENCING of UN-believers!!.
BELIEVERS are NOT "judged" as to their SPIRITUAL POSITION in Christ.

John 3:18
He who believes in Him is not judged;(spiritual POSITION)
he who does not believe has been judged already,
because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten (not made,unique) Son of God.

Only the spiritual WORKS (PRACTICES) in or out of the will of God are judged.

JUDGMENT of the Believer's WORKS

2 Corinthians 5: 1-15 (NIV) + 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (NIV) + Romans 14:10b,12 (1-23)

10 For we (BELIEVERS) must all appear before the "Judgment (bema = awards platform) Seat of Christ",
that each one may receive what is due him for the things done (WORKS) while in the BODY, whether good or bad....

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (NIV)...Judgment of the BELIEVER'S WORKS
1 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ....(salvation)
12 If any man BUILDS on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 his WORK will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it (WORKS) to light.
It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's WORK.
14 If what he has BUILT survives, he will receive his REWARD.(CROWNS)
15 If it (WORK) is burned up, he will suffer LOSS;
he himself will be SAVED, but only as one escaping through the flames.(miraculous delivery)

Romans 14:10b,12...BELIEVERS: Do not judge "one another"
10b ...For we will all stand before "the judgment seat of God".
12 So then, each of us will be accountable to God....
for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

Click to expand...

Ron, what are you doing? I know the White Throne Judgment is for unbelievers. The OP asked the question regarding free will. There is no comment on believers here. If unbelievers do not have free will in choosing to reject Jesus, then the White Throne Judgment is a kangaroo court because, according to Calvinism, God predestined them to damnation.

Please think before writing.

"Free Will" may not be "Free".

The Sow-Reap true principle

Hosea 8:7
For they sow the wind And they reap the whirlwind.

2 Corinthians 9:6 (all NASB)...Paul: Now this I say,
he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and
he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully.

Galatians 6:7-8
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked;
for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal (spiritual) life.

Hebrews 12:6
For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines (trains,NOT punish)
And He scourges every son whom He receives.”

If you are a "bad boy" believer, God may take you to the "woodshed". He may allow the chaotic world, your sin nature, and/or the devil to bring you to your knees.

Salvation is secure, but the Sanctification Process may be like the "tough love" of a wise earthly father.

Ron Gurley said:

"Free Will" may not be "Free".

The Sow-Reap true principle

Hosea 8:7
For they sow the wind And they reap the whirlwind.

2 Corinthians 9:6 (all NASB)...Paul: Now this I say,
he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and
he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully.

Galatians 6:7-8
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked;
for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal (spiritual) life.

Hebrews 12:6
For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines (trains,NOT punish)
And He scourges every son whom He receives.”

If you are a "bad boy" believer, God may take you to the "woodshed". He may allow the chaotic world, your sin nature, and/or the devil to bring you to your knees.

Salvation is secure, but the Sanctification Process may be like the "tough love" of a wise earthly father.

Click to expand...

Are you even paying attention to the question of the OP?

The OP points:
1. If we believe we are free to choose salvation, will we trust our choices more than Jesus?
2. Does free will lean towards works for salvation?
3. What other view besides unconditional or conditional election, or Catholic works?
4. What support is in the Bible for free will or not?

Nothing you have said addresses any of these points.

The OP points?:
1. If we believe we are free to choose salvation, will we trust our choices more than Jesus?

A1: No. God spiritually Call/Draws ALL Men. Man's spirit must CHOOSE to ACCEPT or REJECT His provisions.

2. Does "free will" lean towards works for salvation?

A2: Absolutely NOT!

3. What other view besides unconditional or conditional election, or Catholic works?

A3: All 3 are false doctrines. Beats me if there are others.

4. What support is in the Bible "for" "free will"?

A4: SEE: https://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-true-doctrine-of-free-will-biblical-examples.8011505/

AND: My posts# 2 + 6

OP: Q: "IS THE HUMAN WILL FREE TO CHOOSE JESUS?.
A: Yes. Otherwise Man's Spirits are puppets to the Sovreignty of God.

Ron Gurley said:

OP: Q: "IS THE HUMAN WILL FREE TO CHOOSE JESUS?.
A: Yes. Otherwise Man's Spirits are puppets to the Sovreignty of God.

Click to expand...

But is it our choice that did it, or not...?

I think it is possible, even likely, that God gave us free will because we need free will in order to love as God loves (technically, I am referring to what is called "libertarian free will", which is what most people mean by "free will"). I explained my thoughts on this in another post, which you may find here:

Does Love Require Free Will?