Universalism...why not?

Dartman said:

When the last wicked person is dead, there will be no mortals that CAN die. Death is destroyed.

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Death isn't abolished till all the dead are made alive & nobody ever dies again, such as when all have immortality, as in 1 Cor.15:22-28, Rev.21:5.

ClementofA said:

Burned up (Mal.4:1-4).

What "day" is Mal.4:1 referring to?

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This day;
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Which is also this day;
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

ClementofA said:

Does "all the proud" refer to every proud person that ever lived? Or only some of them?

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Only the unrepentant.

ClementofA said:

Does "burn them up" mean endless annihilation? No.

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On THAT day? YES!
NOT ONE Scripture mentions resurrection from 2nd death.

ClementofA said:

Death isn't abolished till all the dead are made alive & nobody ever dies again, such as when all have immortality, as in 1 Cor.15:22-28, Rev.21:5.

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1 Cor 15:22-28 doesn't promise immortality to all people. Rev 21:5 is ONLY referring to those NOT found in Rev 21:8.

Dartman said:

On THAT day? YES!
NOT ONE Scripture mentions resurrection from 2nd death.

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The abolishing of death & making all new does (1 Cor.15:22-28; Rev.21:5).

Also all references to UR, some of which i listed earlier.

Dartman said:

The dead aren't experiencing anything. It is the living that view the wicked with contempt, and shame. Again, you have been corrected on this already, and are merely being resistant to the truth.

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Daniel 12:2 "shame" & "contempt" isn't talking about the dead, but those who were just raised out of death!

Also why did you avoid this:

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Rev.20:10}

Dartman said:

1 Cor 15:22-28 doesn't promise immortality to all people. Rev 21:5 is ONLY referring to those NOT found in Rev 21:8.

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Rev.21:5 makes no exceptions: all, not some.

1 Cor.15:22-28 refers to those in Adam being made alive as Christ was, to immortality.

ClementofA said:

Dartman said:

On THAT day? YES!
NOT ONE Scripture mentions resurrection from 2nd death.

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The abolishing of death & making all new does (1 Cor.15:22-28; Rev.21:5).

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No, it doesn't. Death is abolished when no one dies any more. It does NOT require those already dead to be brought back to life.

ClementofA said:

Rev.21:5 makes no exceptions: all, not some.

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Not at all. Obviously any of the viruses, and bacteria, and weeds, and other elements of the curse are not made new. Nor are every single life form that has ever lived since creation. Nor are those the Scriptures state repeatedly have been destroyed. Your theory is simply NOT stated, and you know it. Your bizarre twists of the text are simply not supported.

ClementofA said:

1 Cor.15:22-28 refers to those in Adam being made alive as Christ was, to immortality.

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Your twist of this text isn't an accurate reflection of the words in the text. Your addition of the phrase "to immortality" is in direct conflict with the rest of Scripture;
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Dartman said:

Not at all. Obviously any of the viruses, and bacteria, and weeds, and other elements of the curse are not made new. Nor are every single life form that has ever lived since creation. Nor are those the Scriptures state repeatedly have been destroyed. Your theory is simply NOT stated, and you know it. Your bizarre twists of the text are simply not supported.

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You were speaking of human beings, i.e. those in the lake of fire (Rev.21:8). You tried to exclude them from verse 5 where God says He is making "all" new. I simply pointed out that verse 5 did not exclude anyone.

For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." (1 Cor.15:22)

Compare:

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Cor.5:17)

He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making all new!" (Rev.21:5a)

Dartman said:

Your twist of this text isn't an accurate reflection of the words in the text. Your addition of the phrase "to immortality" is in direct conflict with the rest of Scripture;
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

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Verse 9 speaks of anguish as opposed to endless annihilation. Compare:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the sons of men.…

Rom.5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

Dartman said:

No, it doesn't. Death is abolished when no one dies any more. It does NOT require those already dead to be brought back to life.

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Death is abolished when God becomes All "in" all (1 Cor.15:28). God isn't yet "in" ALL while this is still occurring:

And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] both the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10)

ClementofA said:

Dartman said:

Not at all. Obviously any of the viruses, and bacteria, and weeds, and other elements of the curse are not made new. Nor are every single life form that has ever lived since creation. Nor are those the Scriptures state repeatedly have been destroyed. Your theory is simply NOT stated, and you know it. Your bizarre twists of the text are simply not supported.

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You were speaking of human beings, i.e. those in the lake of fire (Rev.21:8). You tried to exclude them from verse 5 where God says He is making "all" new. I simply pointed out that verse 5 did not exclude anyone.

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Verse 8 excludes all the wicked. Verse 5 doesn't say ANYTHING about "things that are dead". You really have no point. You are desperately struggling, because you have adopted an unbiblical position.

ClementofA said:

For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." (1 Cor.15:22) Compare:

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Cor.5:17)

He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making all new!" (Rev.21:5a)

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You have quoted three statements taken out of context.

1 Cor 15:22 is merely talking about being resurrected ... either resurrection .... the Good = to life (like Jesus) .. the Bad = to "burned up", "ashes", "destruction", "shame", "everlasting contempt".

2 Cor 5:17 is talking specifically to the righteous, "in Christ", and is talking about NOW. It is NOT talking about being resurrected to immortality.

Rev 21:5 is talking about God renewing things, the heavens and the earth, taking away the curse, so there is no more pain, death, sorrow. It makes NO mention of making the dead new. The 2nd resurrection is done, and verse 8 SPECIFICALLY describes the end of the wicked.

So, the net result of ALL these posts is, you have failed to convince ANYONE. It is just as obvious now, as it was in the beginning of this thread, you have a tiny handful of texts, that you can twist so they POSSIBLY could mean a bit of support for your theory, but ONLY if the rest of Scripture is ignored.

ClementofA said:

Death is abolished when God becomes All "in" all (1 Cor.15:28). God isn't yet "in" ALL while this is still occurring:

And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] both the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10)

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No, death is abolished BEFORE God becomes "all in all".
1 Cor 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

It is only AFTER "all things (including death) shall be subdued"! THEN Jesus turns the kingdom over to his God, and God is "all in all".

Dartman said:

No, death is abolished BEFORE God becomes "all in all".
1 Cor 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

It is only AFTER "all things (including death) shall be subdued"! THEN Jesus turns the kingdom over to his God, and God is "all in all".

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Regardless, God isn't yet "in" ALL while this is still occurring:

And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] both the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10)

Dartman said:

Verse 8 excludes all the wicked. Verse 5 doesn't say ANYTHING about "things that are dead". You really have no point. You are desperately struggling, because you have adopted an unbiblical position.

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You have assumed Rev.21:5, God making ALL new, doesn't include the dead or the living in the lake of fire. An assumption is not proof.

At that point what is there that still needs to be made new?

Dartman said:

.

You have quoted three statements taken out of context.

1 Cor 15:22 is merely talking about being resurrected ... either resurrection .... the Good = to life (like Jesus) .. the Bad = to "burned up", "ashes", "destruction", "shame", "everlasting contempt".

2 Cor 5:17 is talking specifically to the righteous, "in Christ", and is talking about NOW. It is NOT talking about being resurrected to immortality.

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Verse 22 also speaks of those "in Christ".

22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified."

In doesn't say "by Christ" but IN Christ.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Cor.5:17)

ClementofA said:

You have assumed Rev.21:5, God making ALL new, doesn't include the dead or the living in the lake of fire. An assumption is not proof.

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LOL .... it is YOUR assumption that God making all things new INCLUDES those that are dead!! "An assumption is not proof".
But even MORE conclusive, verses 7 and 8 spells out two different "rewards",
Rev 21:7-8 "He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
So, not only is your theory NEVER stated in verse 5, BUT verses 7 and 8 prove beyond all doubt ... the ONLY ones that inherit those "new things", are those that overcome! By contrast all the sinners (listed in verse 8) ONLY have a part "in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH!
And still, you have not provided even a SHRED of proof that there is ANY cure for 2nd death.

ClementofA said:

Dartman said:

You have quoted three statements taken out of context.

1 Cor 15:22 is merely talking about being resurrected ... either resurrection .... the Good = to life (like Jesus) .. the Bad = to "burned up", "ashes", "destruction", "shame", "everlasting contempt".

2 Cor 5:17 is talking specifically to the righteous, "in Christ", and is talking about NOW. It is NOT talking about being resurrected to immortality.

Rev 21:5 is talking about God renewing things, the heavens and the earth, taking away the curse, so there is no more pain, death, sorrow. It makes NO mention of making the dead new. The 2nd resurrection is done, and verse 8 SPECIFICALLY describes the end of the wicked.

So, the net result of ALL these posts is, you have failed to convince ANYONE. It is just as obvious now, as it was in the beginning of this thread, you have a tiny handful of texts, that you can twist so they POSSIBLY could mean a bit of support for your theory, but ONLY if the rest of Scripture is ignored.

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Verse 22 also speaks of those "in Christ".

22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified."

In doesn't say "by Christ" but IN Christ.

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And it says "in Adam".
We know "in Adam" means as a result of Adam's actions. The exact same is true of Jesus, as a result of Jesus' actions he was given the power to resurrect;
John 5:21-29 21 "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. 22 "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23 in order that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. 24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. 25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear shall live. 26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice, 29 and shall come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

ClementofA said:

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Cor.5:17)

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Yes, those that are disciples of Jesus have died to sin, and have put on "the new man" .... but they haven't been resurrected to immortality yet; 1 Cor 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at his coming,
"Those who are Christ's" is the same as "in christ".

Dartman said:

No, it doesn't. Death is abolished when no one dies any more. It does NOT require those already dead to be brought back to life.

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Death is an enemy of mankind.

Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses...(Rom.5:14a)

Death reigns over those in the lake of fire who died a second time.

Christ will abolish all authority & power including that of death:

24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power." 25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.

Release from death is called a ransom:

Shall I ransom them from the power of Sheol? Shall I redeem them from death? (Hosea 13:14)

Christ gave Himself a Ransom for all

1 Timothy 2:4-6
4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus,
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


Isa.35:10 The Yahweh’s ransomed ones will return, and come with singing to Zion; and everlasting joy will be on their heads. They will obtain gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing will flee away.”

Dartman said:

And it says "in Adam".
We know "in Adam" means as a result of Adam's actions. The exact same is true of Jesus, as a result of Jesus' actions he was given the power to resurrect;

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And your point is? Like i said:

Verse 22 also speaks of those "in Christ".

22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified."

In doesn't say "by Christ" but IN Christ.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Cor.5:17)

Dartman said:

LOL .... it is YOUR assumption that God making all things new INCLUDES those that are dead!! "An assumption is not proof".
But even MORE conclusive, verses 7 and 8 spells out two different "rewards",
Rev 21:7-8 "He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
So, not only is your theory NEVER stated in verse 5, BUT verses 7 and 8 prove beyond all doubt ... the ONLY ones that inherit those "new things", are those that overcome! By contrast all the sinners (listed in verse 8) ONLY have a part "in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH!
And still, you have not provided even a SHRED of proof that there is ANY cure for 2nd death.

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Of course there are two different paths leading up to the time of casting into the LOF.

Revelation 21:5 speaks after that event & of God making (not having already made) ALL new.

At that point what is there that still needs to be made new? Those in the LOF.