Universalism...why not?

[ClementofA]

Why are you refusing to state this "WORSE" punishment? And, why won't you answer the question: "how does a WORSE punishment fulfill your "Love Omnipotent" theory??" THESE questions illustrate what "doesn't make sense on multiple levels".

If you think these Q's illustrate something, then why don't you elaborate? What are you waiting for?

Your acknowledgment that Hebrews proves there are worse punishments than mere stoning, but this contradicts your "Love Omnipotent" theory. You are going to have to do better than just deny the obvious, you are going to have to actually answer the questions.

What theory is that? What contradiction?

 

[Dartman]

1. What theory?

2. See 1

3. You don't know what i am thinking, will be thinking or have thought. All you have to go on are a few words on a screen. Neither do you know what i know, will know or have known. You are not a mind reader. Neither can you read the hearts of men. You are not omniscient. And you are wrong.

Note to any objective readers; is there ANYONE out there, that does NOT see the "stall" in these replies??

ClementofA, you KNOW you have been arguing a theory regarding some type of second chance, a resurrection beyond the 2nd ... that "cast into the lake of fire" isn't the end .... and since you KNOW you don't have a single passage that explains your theory ... now you are pretending you haven't been TALKING about one!!
This kind of tactic renders any response to the rest of this post, or any subsequent posts, an exercise in futility.
You are merely stalling.

 

[ClementofA]

Note to any objective readers; is there ANYONE out there, that does NOT see the "stall" in these replies??

ClementofA, you KNOW you have been arguing a theory regarding some type of second chance, a resurrection beyond the 2nd ... that "cast into the lake of fire" isn't the end .... and since you KNOW you don't have a single passage that explains your theory ... now you are pretending you haven't been TALKING about one!!
This kind of tactic renders any response to the rest of this post, or any subsequent posts, an exercise in futility.
You are merely stalling.

That's funny. When are you going to respond to my post 1511 on that very subject.

As i posted earlier:

P.S. are you going to respond to the subject of reigning in post 1511?

I've also given you 1 Corinthians 3:15. You didn't accept that.

Then i gave you Lamentations 3:31-33. You didn't accept that either.

Before that i gave you 1 Corinthians 15:22-28. Still unanswered.

etc, etc, etc

Here's a whole book i'm giving you now:

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Here's an entire website full of books re universalism:

Christian Universalism, not UUA, universalist apologetics, victorious gospel, Hell's defeat, ultimate reconciliation

Search the internet & you'll find many more such websites.

Happy reading!

 

[Dartman]

That's funny. When are you going to respond to my post 1511 on that very subject.

As i posted earlier:

P.S. are you going to respond to the subject of reigning in post 1511?

Post 1521.

I've also given you 1 Corinthians 3:15. You didn't accept that.

You got it wrong. The "Gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay and stubble" are people converted by a teacher.
BUT, even if you were RIGHT in your interpretation..... this text would NOT EXPLAIN your theory, it would merely be a possible support for an aspect of your theory. You need to find ANY teacher in the Bible, actually explaining this notion that there are more chances AFTER the lake of fire somehow!!
Those PEOPLE might be destroyed by fire (the wood, hay and stubble), but the teacher can still be rewarded eternal life.

Then i gave you Lamentations 3:31-33. You didn't accept that either.

Of course not, You got it wrong. The text is promising God's eventual restoration of the nation of Israel.
BUT, even if you were RIGHT in your interpretation..... this text would NOT EXPLAIN your theory, it would merely be a possible support for an aspect of your theory, IF, and only IF, you could find someway to show this notion that there are more chances AFTER the lake of fire somehow!!

Before that i gave you 1 Corinthians 15:22-28. Still unanswered.

Post 1521. You are still stalling.

 

[ClementofA]

Post 1521.

Post 1521. You are still stalling.

1521 is my post. Which BTW you haven't answered.

Also 1509 re the subject of reigning has not been addressed.

Also 1523.

 

[Dartman]

1521 is my post.

You are correct, sorry.
1519 is what I meant, and it is the answer for 1509.

You haven't answered 1511, 1515, 1518 or 1520

Your post 1523 will NOT be addressed until you respond to the 4 I have listed.

 

[ClementofA]

You are correct, sorry.
1519 is what I meant, and it is the answer for 1509.

You haven't answered 1511, 1515, 1518 or 1520

Your post 1523 will NOT be addressed until you respond to the 4 I have listed.

1511 was a reply to half of my post 1509 which you haven't fully answered. The part re reigning is unanswered. So you should finish answering 1509 before i answer 1511.

1515 was already answered in posts 1516 & 1517

1518 was already answered in post 1522

1520 was already answered in post 1523.

So all yours have been answered except 1511, 1526.

What you haven't answered: 1509, 1521, 1523.

 

[Dartman]

1511 was a reply to half of my post 1509 which you haven't fully answered.

Of course I have;
"There is nothing in this text that supports your theory that "reigning" ends. In stead, Jesus "reigns" until his God places all enemies under Christ's feet, which takes more than 1,000 years, and then Jesus turns the "reigning" over to his God."

The rest of your posts are nothing more than stall tactics. You merely explained why you don't think you have to answer my posts ..... LOL

 

[ClementofA]

You got it wrong. The "Gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay and stubble" are people converted by a teacher.
BUT, even if you were RIGHT in your interpretation..... this text would NOT EXPLAIN your theory, it would merely be a possible support for an aspect of your theory. You need to find ANY teacher in the Bible, actually explaining this notion that there are more chances AFTER the lake of fire somehow!!
Those PEOPLE might be destroyed by fire (the wood, hay and stubble), but the teacher can still be rewarded eternal life.

1 Cor.3:13-17 teaches the salvation of all mankind, as do many other passages of the Scriptures. Such as Rom.5:18-19, 1 Tim.2:4-6, 1 Tim.4:9-11, Col. 1:20, Phil.2:9-11, etc

Of course not, You got it wrong. The text is promising God's eventual restoration of the nation of Israel.
BUT, even if you were RIGHT in your interpretation..... this text would NOT EXPLAIN your theory, it would merely be a possible support for an aspect of your theory, IF, and only IF, you could find someway to show this notion that there are more chances AFTER the lake of fire somehow!!

There's no mention of Israel here:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the sons of men.…

Since the Lord does not cast off forever, those in the lake of fire are not lost & not cast off forever. The Lord wants to save them & has not given up on them, nor ever will. He will "have compassion" towards them. He "afflicts" them for their own good, that they repent and be saved. Which they will.

 

[ClementofA]

There is nothing in this text that supports your theory that "reigning" ends. In stead, Jesus "reigns" until his God places all enemies under Christ's feet, which takes more than 1,000 years, and then Jesus turns the "reigning" over to his God.

"Will rule, authority, and power still be present on the
New Earth? If so, death has not yet been abolished.
Let us see: "The throne of God and of the Lamb shall
be therein" (Rev. 22:3). "And his servants shall serve
him" and "they shall reign for the ages of the ages"
(Rev. 22:3-5). "The Kings of the earth bring their
glory into the New Jerusalem" (Rev. 21:23, 24). Yes,
rule, authority, and power are still present on the New
Earth. The Lord Jesus is still reigning, the saints are
still reigning, and there are still kings on the earth. The
end order has not yet been made alive. Since there will
be no death on the New Earth (Rev. 21:1-4), the only
dead ones to be made alive in the end order are those
who have suffered the second death. When these have
been made alive, then indeed and in truth, death will
have been abolished."

 

[Dartman]

1 Cor.3:13-17 teaches the salvation of all mankind, as do many other passages of the Scriptures. Such as Rom.5:18-19, 1 Tim.2:4-6, 1 Tim.4:9-11, Col. 1:20, Phil.2:9-11, etc



There's no mention of Israel here:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the sons of men.…

Since the Lord does not cast off forever, those in the lake of fire are not lost & not cast off forever. The Lord wants to save them & has not given up on them, nor ever will. He will "have compassion" towards them. He "afflicts" them for their own good, that they repent and be saved. Which they will.

You have merely repeated texts, about which you have previously been corrected.
Obviously, you have ZERO texts that remotely approach EXPLAINING your position.

What you DO have, is a tiny handful of texts, if taken out of context, that MIGHT possibly support some hint of your theories.

 

[Dartman]

"Will rule, authority, and power still be present on the
New Earth?

The very definition of "God" includes His position of authority, power and His rulership of the universe. ABSOLUTELY there will be rule, authority and power! But, there will be NO enemy that rules, has authority or power. THIS fulfills the statement of the text.
When Jesus rules over all his enemies, THEN he will destroy the "LAST" enemy, death. BUT, Jesus will still be ruling, will have authority, and power. Jesus will THEN turn that rule, authority and power over to his God, so that God is "all in all". This phrase ... "all in all" .... is dealing with "rule, authority and power". There is NOTHING in this text, or any other, that claims ALL human beings who have ever lived will be given eternal life!!!
There are HUNDREDS that discuss the ultimate end of the wicked is destruction, "burned up", "ashes", "everlasting shame", etc.

 

[ClementofA]

You have merely repeated texts, about which you have previously been corrected.
Obviously, you have ZERO texts that remotely approach EXPLAINING your position.

I think it's enough to prove universalism by Scripture.

What's there to explain? It isn't rocket science.

 

[Dartman]

I think it's enough to prove universalism by Scripture.

You haven't.

What's there to explain?

The theory known as universalism. It simply is never explained in Scripture.

It isn't rocket science.

More relevant, it isn't true.

 

[ClementofA]

The very definition of "God" includes His position of authority, power and His rulership of the universe. ABSOLUTELY there will be rule, authority and power! But, there will be NO enemy that rules, has authority or power. THIS fulfills the statement of the text.

While there are those still dead in the LOF, death has not been abolished (1 Cor.15:22-28):

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy thatshall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

But Revelation tells of a time when that will happen:

He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making all new!" (Rev.21:5a)

All are not "new" while any are still dead.

 

[ClementofA]

The theory known as universalism. It simply is never explained in Scripture.

Where is endless annihilation ever "explained" in Scripture?

It's not only not explained. It's not there. Anywhere.

 

[ClementofA]

There are HUNDREDS that discuss the ultimate end of the wicked is destruction, "burned up", "ashes", "everlasting shame", etc.

If people are experiencing "everlasting shame", they aren't annihilated, are they?

Likewise if they are being tormented forever and ever:

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Rev.20:10}

 

[Dartman]

While there are those still dead in the LOF, death has not been abolished (1 Cor.15:22-28):

When the last wicked person is dead, there will be no mortals that CAN die. Death is destroyed. Your interpretation doesn't match Scripture.... so give it up. You need to conform your understanding to the text.

 

[ClementofA]

There are HUNDREDS that discuss the ultimate end of the wicked is destruction, "burned up", "ashes", "everlasting shame", etc.

Burned up (Mal.4:1-4).

What "day" is Mal.4:1 referring to?

Does "all the proud" refer to every proud person that ever lived? Or only some of them?

Does "burn them up" mean endless annihilation? No.

 

[Dartman]

There are HUNDREDS that discuss the ultimate end of the wicked is destruction, "burned up", "ashes", "everlasting shame", etc.

If people are experiencing "everlasting shame", they aren't annihilated, are they?

The dead aren't experiencing anything. It is the living that view the wicked with contempt, and shame. Again, you have been corrected on this already, and are merely being resistant to the truth.