Universalism...why not?

ClementofA said:

The context says "sons of men". Not sons of Israel.

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundantlovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the sons of men.…

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Lam 3:40-51 Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the Lord.
41 Let us lift up our heart with our hands unto God in the heavens.
42 We have transgressed and have rebelled: thou hast not pardoned.
43 Thou hast covered with anger, and persecuted us: thou hast slain, thou hast not pitied.
44 Thou hast covered thyself with a cloud, that our prayer should not pass through.
45 Thou hast made us as the offscouring and refuse in the midst of the people.
46 All our enemies have opened their mouths against us.
47 Fear and a snare is come upon us, desolation and destruction.
48 Mine eye runneth down with rivers of water for the destruction of the daughter of my people.
49 Mine eye trickleth down, and ceaseth not, without any intermission,
50 Till the Lord look down, and behold from heaven.
51 Mine eye affecteth mine heart because of all the daughters of my city.

The context of the entire book is Jehovah's punishment of Israel, and His mercy on the repentant "daughters of my city".

benelchi said:

It is not used in a plural form in Ps. 139!

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Nobody said it did.

benelchi said:

FYI - NIDOTTE is one of the most respected OT Theological Dictionaries and encompasses the work of many of the world's top Hebrew scholars.

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What is that? An infallible pontiff? Where does it explain it's declaration all should bow down to & worship? Where does it refute what i posted? Nowhere. Therefore it is useless. Who did the 12 follow? Jesus, or some NID-whatever Pharisees? God gave us a brain to use. Shall we not use it?

"The Third Law of Theology: For every theologian there is an equal and opposite theologian."

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

benelchi said:

Note: You do not have the right Hebrew word for everlasting.

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Really. And what is that in your opinion.

benelchi said:

Let's look at the LXX and see how this was understood by the Apostles who frequently cited the LXX, and the Jewish community of the 1st century who frequently used the LXX.

καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν τῷ πλάτει τῆς γῆς ἀναστήσονται οἱ μὲν εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον οἱ δὲ εἰς ὀνειδισμόν οἱ δὲ εἰς διασπορὰν καὶ αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον (Dan. 12:2)

Friberg, Analytical Greek Lexicon
[Fri] αἰώνιος, ον (sometimes ος, ία, ον) eternal, everlasting, opposite πρόσκαιρος (temporary, transitory); (1) of God without beginning or end, eternal (RO 16.26); (2) without beginning (RO 16.25); (3) without end, everlasting (2C 5.1); (4) neuter singular αἰώνιον as an adverb for all time, forever (PM 15)

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Your lexicon appears to be misleading & misinformed.

Sources which say aionios is used of limited duration or speak of it as including the meaning agelong, lasting for an age & similarly:

1. Vine's Expository Dictionary says aionios "describes duration, either undefined but not endless..."

2. Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries says "166. αιωνιος aionios; from 165; agelong..."
Strong's Greek: 166. αἰώνιος (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal

3. Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992: "αιωνιος aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age"

Greek Word Study Tool
Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon
[MOVED]Hell is not Eternal (Evidence from the Bible and the Greek text)

4. Strong's "age-long...partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting."
Strong's Greek: 166. αἰώνιος (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal

5. Helps Word Studies copyright © 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc. "properly, "age-like" ("like-an-age"), i.e. an "age-characteristic" (the quality describing a particular age)..."
Strong's Greek: 166. αἰώνιος (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal

6. Abbott-Smith Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament: "[in LXX chiefly for H5769;] age-long..."
Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

7a. The Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament. Copyright © 1914, 1929, 1930 by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan. Hodder and Stoughton, London. Derivative Copyright © 2015 by Allan Loder. "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance...or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Cæsar’s life." Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

7b. In THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan)..."Concerning aionios we read, “In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . .” (p.16)." The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?

7c. The Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament, by Mounce, says: "indeterminate as to duration, eternal, everlasting".
When did "eternal" change from "ethereal" to "endless"?

8. A. T. Robertson in his "Word Pictures In The New Testament" in commenting on Titus 1:2 explains Paul’s words as signifying “Long ages ago” (vol.4, p.597).
The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?

9a. In the multivolume THEOLOGICAL DICTIONARY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT (begun in German under the editorship of Gerhard Kittel) Hermann Sasse admits, “The concept of eternity [in aionios] is weakened” in Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 1:2 (vol.1. p.209). He explains that these passages use “the eternity formulae” which he had previously
explained as “the course of the world” perceived as “a series of smaller aiones” (p.203). Sasse also refers to the use of aionios in Philemon 15, which he feels “reminds
us of the non-biblical usage” of this word, which he had earlier found to signify “lifelong” or “enduring” (p.208). The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?

9b. "TDNT aiwnnios. In later poetry and prose aijwvnio" is also used in the sense of “lifelong” or “enduring,” in accordance with the basic meaning of ® aijwvn: Callim.Hymn., 3, 6; 4, 130; Philodem. De Deis, III, 8, 22, Diels (AAB, 1916, 4); Dion. Hal.Ant. Rom., X, 36; Diod. S., I, 1, 5; IV, 63, 4; Max. Tyr., XLIII, 43, Dübner. Cf. the distinction between nou`so" cronivh and aijwnivh in Aretaios of Cappadocia (181, 7 Ermerins). Inscriptions: hJ aijwvnio" kai; ajqavnato" tou` panto;" fuvsi", Inscr. Brit. Mus. (inscription in honour of Augustus from Halicarnass.); eij" crovnon aijwvnion, Ditt. Or., 383, 11; pro;" dovxan kai; mnhvmhn aijwvnion, ibid., 438, 13 and many similar formulations...

In the LXX µl;/[ is often rendered adjectivally by aijwvnio", the sense being thus affected, e.g., in y 23ò7: puvlai aijwvnioi (“everlasting doors”) instead of “ancient doors”;
y 76ò5: e[th aijwvnia (“eternal years”) instead of “years long past”...4. The concept of eternity is weakened in crovnoi aijwvnioi, R. 16:25; 2 Tm. 1:9; Tt. 1:2. This expression
is simply a variant of aijw`ne" in the eternity formulae. The phrase in Phlm. 15: i{na aijwvnion aujto;n ajpevch/" (“that thou shouldest receive him for ever”) reminds us of the
non-biblical usage ((® 208) and of oijkevth" eij" to;n aijw`na –µl;/[ db,[,„“slave for life” in Dt. 15:17..."
Greek translation problems. - Page 8 - FRDB Archives

10. Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament, by Abbot-Smith, says: "age-long, eternal".
When did "eternal" change from "ethereal" to "endless"?
A manual Greek lexicon of the New Testament : Abbott-Smith, George : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

11a. BDAG "1. pert. to a long period of time, long ago..."
[B-Greek] More on AIONIOS
http://markmayberry.net/wp-content/uploads/bible-study/2014-12-28-am-MM-HeavenIsEternal.pdf

11b. "BDAG aiwnios...1. pert. to a long period of time, long ago cro,noij aiv. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro. cro,nwn aiv. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (in these two last pass. the prep. bears the semantic content of priority; on cro,noj aiv. cp. OGI 248, 54; 383, 10)..."
Greek translation problems. - Page 8 - FRDB Archives

12. Dr. Bullinger, author of the King James Companion Bible: "aionios, of or belonging to an age...." From Bullinger's appendix 151...C. Aionios , of or belonging to an age...
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/lake-of-fire-eternal-pain.7954455/page-3
http://www.christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/burning-in-hell.44997/
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html

Most, if not all, of the above 12 are non-universalist sources.

I could list dozens if not 100's more.

Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context. What biased scholars after the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.
9 "The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD..."

"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

http://concordant.org/expositions/the-eons/eon-indefinte-duration-part-three/

"Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."(Prov.30:6)

"The Third Law of Theology: For every theologian there is an equal and opposite theologian."

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Dartman said:

The context of the entire book is Jehovah's punishment of Israel, and His mercy on the repentant "daughters of my city".

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Then cut "sons of men" out of your bible. I'm keeping it in mine.

ClementofA said:

You are still lacking anything that says anyone is ever endlessly annihilated.

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Everyone knows that "burned up" means endlessly annihilated.Your theory contradicts this truth.
Everyone knows that "no hope" means .... no hope! Those without a covenant relationship with God, which NOW means you come to God through His Christ, have "no hope". Your theory contradicts this truth.
Everyone knows your theory requires an ADDITIONAL resurrection, after "second death"!! You have ZERO Scriptures that explain this NOTION!!

ClementofA said:

As for a resurrection out of the lake of fire:

Rev.21:5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.”
Is "all" already made completely new (21:5), immortal & incorruptible when nations still need healing from the leaves of trees (22:2; Ezek.47:12)?

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You're ignoring the past tense in Rev 22:2... the leaves WERE for the healing of the nations.
And Rev 21:5 follows Rev 20 in sequence. There is no more death, sorrow and pain from Rev 21 throughout eternity.

ClementofA said:

Has death and reigning been abolished (1 Cor.15:24-26) while reigning continues (22:3-5 & 21:23,24)?

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Nothing says reigning will be abolished. Your premise is error.

ClementofA said:

Verse 8 refers back to what already transpired in Revelation 20:13-15.

And gives additional info re what persons will be cast into the lake of fire, calling it the second death. If death is gone (21:4), then why does the author refer to death again in 21:8?

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To explain who will NOT be around, and why.

ClementofA said:

It is a mistake to assume chapters 20-22 of Revelation are written in chronological order.

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Why?? It most certainly fits with ALL other Scripture in chronological order!!

ClementofA said:

If everyone's destinies are finalized at 21:4-5, then why does God say in verse 6 "to him who is thirsting, will give of the fountain of the water of the life freely"? Because those in the lake of fire (21:8; 20:13-15) can still be saved?

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No. Because those reading the BOOK can still be saved!

ClementofA said:

If 21:4 refers only to the saved at that time, verse 5 says in various translations God is "making ALL" new. And there is still death which hasn't been abolished yet (1 Cor.15:22-28).

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Wrong. When the last sinner is dead, death is abolished.

ClementofA said:

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

"AS in Adam ALL die
SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
BUT each in his own order:

1. Christ the Firstfruit;

2. Then they that are Christ's, at His coming;

3. Then cometh the end [order], WHEN He shall deliver
up the kingdom to God, even the Father; WHEN He shall
have abolished ALL rule and ALL authority and power.
For He must reign. TILL He hath put all His enemies
under His feet. THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE ABOLISHED
IS DEATH. (1 Cor. 15:22-26, R.V.)."

"...But each in his own order. Not a "but" of exception,
rather a "but" of order. ALL are to be made alive but at
different times. "Each in his own order." Three orders
are enumerated and located in relation to other events:

1. Christ the Firstfruit — Three days alter His death.

2. Then those who are Christ's — At His coming.

3. Then the end [order] — WHEN He shall deliver up the
kingdom."

"It is the third or "end" order that many overlook. A
thoughtful reading of this passage will enable most be-
lievers to see clearly that the words "then cometh the
end" refer to this end order to be made alive. The sub-
ject the apostle is elucidating is: The order in which
all who die in Adam will be made alive in Christ (vs. 22-
24). Christ the firstfruit (order one) and those who
are Christ's at His coming (order two) comprise only
a small part of the all who die in Adam. A third order
is necessary to make all alive. To refer the "end" to
anything else is to ignore the context and to introduce
something foreign to the subject. It cannot possibly
refer to an end of the kingdom, for though the kingdom
will be "delivered up" to the Father (1 Cor. 15:24), it
will never end (Luke 1:33)."

"Four statements in this passage indicate that the
words "then cometh the end" refer to the making alive
of an end order.

1. "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made
alive. But each in his own order" (vs. 22. 23).

2. "The last enemy that shall be abolished is death" (vs. 26).
It is the making alive of ALL that will abolish death. As long
as any remain dead, death has not been abolished.

3. "When all things have been subjected unto the Son" (vs.
27, 28). The dead must ALL be made alive if all are to be sub-
jected unto the Son. The only exception in this subjection is
God the Father.

4. "That God may be All in all" (vs. 28). This requires that
all be made alive. As long as any remain dead God cannot be
ALL in ALL, for He is not the God of the dead (Luke 20:37, 38)."

As in Adam all die

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No. Verses 24 - 28 are a change of topic, and are discussing the conquering of the enemies, and the transfer of power. They are NOT discussing anyone coming to life. God being "All in All" is in reference to His ruling over His son's and daughters.

ClementofA said:

Then cut "sons of men" out of your bible. I'm keeping it in mine.

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Last time I checked, almost everything that applies to "sons of men" applies to Israelis ... I will keep it in my Bible. However, it sounds like you could easily rip out all but the three verses you are quoting .... you apparently don't need the rest of the context.

Dartman said:

Last time I checked, almost everything that applies to "sons of men" applies to Israelis ... I will keep it in my Bible. However, it sounds like you could easily rip out all but the three verses you are quoting .... you apparently don't need the rest of the context.

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The immediate context is not denied by the context elsewhere.

Dartman said:

Everyone knows that "burned up" means endlessly annihilated.Your theory contradicts this truth.

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I already addressed your "burned up" error:

Burned up does not mean endlessly annihilated out of existence. People are cremated, i.e. burned up, every day. Guess what? Everyone of them will be resurrected back to life. They were "burned up" but not annihilated out of existence forever. Therefore the two words "burned up" do not support your theory. You are wrong in saying they mean anyone is endlessly annihilated.

Dartman said:

Everyone knows that "no hope" means .... no hope! Those without a covenant relationship with God, which NOW means you come to God through His Christ, have "no hope".

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If "no hope" meant they were to be endlessly annihilated, then no one could be saved, since all were at one time "without Christ...having no hope, and without God in the world":

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Your argument logiclally leads to your own endless annihilation!

ClementofA said:

The immediate context is not denied by the context elsewhere.

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The immediate context is understood in light of the context of the book. Your insistence on ignoring that context is VERY understandable, given the critical lack of verses to support your theory. You simply can't afford to consider the context.

Universalism sounds appealing but there is no clear promise of it in the Scriptures. Human reason is not an infallible guide to spiritual things, so at best I think it's just a hope.

ClementofA] said:

Burned up does not mean endlessly annihilated out of existence. People are cremated, i.e. burned up, every day. Guess what? Everyone of them will be resurrected back to life. They were "burned up" but not annihilated out of existence forever. Therefore the two words "burned up" do not support your theory. You are wrong in saying they mean anyone is endlessly annihilated.

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You keep ignoring the point. "Burned up DOES mean annihilated out of existence, and ONLY resurrection can overcome that state! You have ZERO Scripture to support ANY resurrection from being "burned up" in 2nd death!
NOTHING.

ClementofA said:

If "no hope" meant they were to be endlessly annihilated, then no one could be saved, since all were at one time "without Christ...having no hope, and without God in the world":

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Your argument logiclally leads to your own endless annihilation!

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No, my argument logically leads to the necessity of repentance, and accepting Christ!! ALL others are "without hope"!! You have invented an UNBIBLICAL hope!

Dartman said:

The immediate context is understood in light of the context of the book. Your insistence on ignoring that context is VERY understandable, given the critical lack of verses to support your theory. You simply can't afford to consider the context.

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This is just going in circles. How can one be convinced who says things like:

"Everyone knows that "burned up" means endlessly annihilated."

ClementofA said:

This is just going in circles. How can one be convinced who says things like:

"Everyone knows that "burned up" means endlessly annihilated."

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The only way to convince me is with Scripture.

So far, you haven't provided even one passage that explains your theory. Not ONE text that list a 3rd result of resurrection. We know one = Life, and the other = condemnation/burned up/death/destroyed/ashes ..... where is YOUR theoretical resurrection to "second chance"????

Dartman said:

Everyone knows that "burned up" means endlessly annihilated.Your theory contradicts this truth.
Everyone knows that "no hope" means .... no hope! Those without a covenant relationship with God, which NOW means you come to God through His Christ, have "no hope". Your theory contradicts this truth.

Click to expand...

If "no hope" meant they were to be endlessly annihilated, then no one could be saved, since all were at one time "without Christ...having no hope, and without God in the world":

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Your argument logiclally leads to your own endless annihilation!

Dartman said:

No, my argument logically leads to the necessity of repentance, and accepting Christ!! ALL others are "without hope"!! You have invented an UNBIBLICAL hope!

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You missed the point of what i wrote above.

You also tried to use Eph.2:11-13 to support endless annihilation. But it doesn't.

Some people see endless annihilation all over the Bible where it doesn't exist.

You saw it in Malachi 4. It doesn't exist there either.

Dartman said:

You're ignoring the past tense in Rev 22:2... the leaves WERE for the healing of the nations.

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Some versions used past tense, others present or future tense. Regardless, the tree of life comes with New Jerusalem (Rev.21 & 22), so the leaves are for healing of the people who will live there. Therefore, as i posted:

Rev.21:5a And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.”

Is "all" already made completely new (21:5), immortal & incorruptible when nations still need healing from the leaves of trees (22:2; Ezek.47:12)? Has death and reigning been abolished (1 Cor.15:24-26) while reigning continues (22:3-5 & 21:23,24)?

Dartman said:

Nothing says reigning will be abolished. Your premise is error.

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Then cometh the end [order], WHEN He shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; WHEN He shall have abolished ALL rule and ALL authority and power. For He must reign TILL He hath put all His enemies under His feet. THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE ABOLISHED IS DEATH. (1 Cor. 15:22-26, R.V.).

Rev.21:5a And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.”

AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

ClementofA said:

Some versions used past tense, others present or future tense. Regardless, the tree of life comes with New Jerusalem (Rev.21 & 22), so the leaves are for healing of the people who will live there.

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No.
It is the same kind of tree, as identified by it's previous use. There is no more need on God's perfected earth, since there is no more curse (Rev 22:3). You're straining to try and find some kind of "chink" where the language/grammar defeats you.

ClementofA said:

Has death and reigning been abolished (1 Cor.15:24-26) while reigning continues (22:3-5 & 21:23,24)?

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There is nothing in EITHER passage about the end of "reigning"! 1 Cor.15:24-26 discusses the transfer of POWER from Jesus to his God, AFTER (when he SHALL HAVE..past tense) Jesus conquers the nations, raises ALL of the "rest of the dead" back to life, judges them for 1 of two rewards; either Life, or Death/Destruction/Burned Up/Ashes/Not Be/returned to the grave..

Yes, RETURNED to the grave!!

Ps 9:16-17 The Lord is known by his justice; the wicked are ensnared by the work of their hands.
Higgaion. Selah 17 The wicked return to the grave, all the nations that forget God.

So, absolutely, included within the context we have the order of events;
Christ was the first human being ever resurrected from death/the grave/hell to eternal life
Next will be those that are Christ's AT his coming
Third will be "the rest of the dead", those NOT resurrected in the blessed first resurrection (Rev 20)
And, those that have died during the "1,000 year" reign of Jesus and his saints.
THIS is the period where Jesus puts down "all rule, and all authority".. the LAST enemy conquered is death. So, WHEN Jesus turns the kingdom/authority/reigning over to his God, he has already completed the judgment of all humanity. Some have life, the rest have ceased to exist forever.

AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

ClementofA said:

If "no hope" meant they were to be endlessly annihilated, then no one could be saved, since all were at one time "without Christ...having no hope, and without God in the world":

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That's not logical. Paul is obviously stating that those WITHOUT Christ, had "no hope", but NOW "in Christ Jesus" they have hope!

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Paul's argument logiclally leads to; those without Christ Jesus will receive endless annihilation!

Which is so clearly, and sequentially, described in Rev 20-22, 2 Peter 3, and

Mal 4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh, it burneth as a furnace; and all the proud, and all that work wickedness, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith Jehovah of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the sun of righteousness arise with healing in its wings; and ye shall go forth, and gambol as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I make, saith Jehovah of hosts.

We know this CANNOT be something fulfilled in the past, since it is discussing the destruction of "all the proud, and all that work wickedness"... and it describes the righteous as being healed, and rejoicing, treading down the ashes of the wicked on "the day that I make, saith Jehovah of hosts".

DUPLICATE

ClementofA said:

Nobody said it did.
What is that? An infallible pontiff? Where does it explain it's declaration all should bow down to & worship? Where does it refute what i posted? Nowhere. Therefore it is useless. Who did the 12 follow? Jesus, or some NID-whatever Pharisees? God gave us a brain to use. Shall we not use it?

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Irrelevant argument. Jesus is not here, neither are the disciples, therefore it is irrelevant what or who anyone followed at that time. Unless you are fully fluent in Greek and you have demonstrated that you do not know even the most elementary rules of grammar you too must rely on translations. And you have demonstrated that you will only recognize sources which support UR doctrine regardless of the qualifications of the writer and how old it is
NIDONTT is the most up to date reference of its class using historical evidence not avaialbe to earlier works such as background and information on the meaning of Greek words in the New Testament—as well as related usage in classical Greek sources, the Septuagint, Jewish literature etc.

Your lexicon appears to be misleading & misinformed.

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No it appears that the sources you have quoted out-of-context are misleading and misinformed.

Sources which say aionios is used of limited duration or speak of it as including the meaning agelong, lasting for an age & similarly:

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Only when quoted selectively and out-of-context as you have done here and previously

. Vine's Expository Dictionary says aionios "describes duration, either undefined but not endless..."

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3. Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992: "αιωνιος aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age"
4. Strong's "age-long...partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting."

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7c. The Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament, by Mounce, says: "indeterminate as to duration, eternal, everlasting".

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Finally one which includes the definitions eternal and everlasting.

8. A. T. Robertson in his "Word Pictures In The New Testament" in commenting on Titus 1:2 explains Paul’s words as signifying “Long ages ago” (vol.4, p.597).
9b. "TDNT aiwnnios. In later poetry and prose aijwvnio" is also used in the sense of “lifelong” or “enduring,” in accordance with the basic meaning of ® aijwvn: Callim.Hymn., 3, 6; 4, 130; Philodem. De Deis, III, 8, 22, Diels (AAB, 1916, 4); Dion. Hal.Ant. Rom., X, 36; Diod. S., I, 1, 5; IV, 63, 4; Max. Tyr., XLIII, 43, Dübner. Cf. the distinction between nou`so" cronivh and aijwnivh in Aretaios of Cappadocia (181, 7 Ermerins). Inscriptions: hJ aijwvnio" kai; ajqavnato" tou` panto;" fuvsi", Inscr. Brit. Mus. (inscription in honour of Augustus from Halicarnass.); eij" crovnon aijwvnion, Ditt. Or., 383, 11; pro;" dovxan kai; mnhvmhn aijwvnion, ibid., 438, 13 and many similar formulations...
11a. BDAG "1. pert. to a long period of time, long ago..."
11b. "BDAG aiwnios...1. pert. to a long period of time, long ago cro,noij aiv. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro. cro,nwn aiv. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (in these two last pass. the prep. bears the semantic content of priority; on cro,noj aiv. cp. OGI 248, 54; 383, 10)..."
12. Dr. Bullinger, author of the King James Companion Bible: "aionios, of or belonging to

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Most, if not all, of the above 12 are non-universalist sources.

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Virtually all of the "sources" quoted above are truncated, selective and out-of-context. I addressed all of these same "sources" in my link:[post #1041] this thread.

I could list dozens if not 100's more.

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And if you did they would be truncated, selective and out-of-context as all of these are.

benelchi said:

No matter how many times you read this verse, you will still find only two instances of 'olam.'

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Yes, you are correct. I have corrected this trivial mistake in my notes. Thank you. Now on to the real issues.

benelchi said:

BDAG not only says far more against the idea you are presenting, it specifically addresses the reference in Daniel 12:2!​

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I don't care what he addresses. The point of posting my 12 lexicon list was to show you how the lexicon info you posted was in error, misinformed & misleading.

Thus there was no point in posting the full entries, although those interested in doing so could follow the links i provided.

Der Alter said:

Virtually all of the "sources" quoted above are truncated, selective and out-of-context. I addressed all of these same "sources" in my link:[post #1041] this thread.

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My response was in the next post, 1042.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf