Noah's Ark

yeshuaslavejeff said:

No worries.... think on this a while.... .....
(I knew someone would seemingly point this out, 'as if' .... )
all the vagaries , so to speak, of all the other stories,
if
they did have the same names and details, would be suspect ....

i.e. all the differences, all verify the original truth, WHEN UNDERSTOOD.

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Correct, the "original truth" is that it is a myth. Now the myths may have been based upon real floods. The real flood that may have caused the Epic of Gilgamesh and other myths that led to the Noah's Ark story, the others being older. And since people tend to live along navigable waterways and they tend to flood at times others may be based upon real floods as well. But none of them are based upon actual floods where all but a few people were left. That has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Subduction Zone said:

I can't fault someone too much for those beliefs. You and I are both "weak atheists". We know that we can't disprove all gods. I can't even begin to disprove such a God like his and at least he is not denying reality. If it gives a person comfort I don't see to much harm.

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Oh I agree 100%! If one has faith then that's good for them! If it helps people personally I have no problem with it. What I rankle at is being told my lack of belief is because I wasn't doing it right.

And besides, I personally value robust logic in one's beliefs. Even if those beliefs are in God. (That's why I really liked the Scholastics in the Medieval Church).

yeshuaslavejeff said:

No worries.... think on this a while.... .....
(I knew someone would seemingly point this out, 'as if' .... )
all the vagaries , so to speak, of all the other stories,
if
they did have the same names and details, would be suspect ....

i.e. all the differences, all verify the original truth, WHEN UNDERSTOOD.

Click to expand...

So you're saying that the LESS something sounds like an actual event (consistent names and storylines) the MORE it is likely real?

I can certainly understand that all things which are real stories are not necessarily told the same way, but this might be the first time in which I read the those stories which are told inconsistently are more likely to be real.

Obliquinaut said:

Oh I agree 100%! If one has faith then that's good for them! If it helps people personally I have no problem with it. What I rankle at is being told my lack of belief is because I wasn't doing it right.

And besides, I personally value robust logic in one's beliefs. Even if those beliefs are in God. (That's why I really liked the Scholastics in the Medieval Church).

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Yeah, that is irritating. The old trope of "You did not pray right" or other such nonsense gets old after the first few hundred times that you hear it.

Obliquinaut said:

That's awfully convenient! (Because now there's absolutely no difference between something that DOESN'T exist and God! BOTH share this same crucial attribute!)

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I understand your claim of "convenience", it's an unavoidable phenomenon. If what we say about God is true then the same conundrum is inevitable in the tension between the Father and his children.

"God is not hiding from any of his creatures. He is unapproachable to so many orders of beings only because he “dwells in a light which no material creature can approach.” The immensity and grandeur of the divine personality is beyond the grasp of the unperfected mind of evolutionary mortals. He “measures the waters in the hollow of his hand, measures a universe with the span of his hand. It is he who sits on the circle of the earth, who stretches out the heavens as a curtain and spreads them out as a universe to dwell in.” “Lift up your eyes on high and behold who has created all these things, who brings out their worlds by number and calls them all by their names”; and so it is true that “the invisible things of God are partially understood by the things which are made.” Today, and as you are, you must discern the invisible Maker through his manifold and diverse creation, as well as through the revelation and ministration of his Sons and their numerous subordinates." UB

Obliquinaut said:

"Take my word for it!"



If only He'd offer a little help in that endeavor. But, such is faith I guess. If we fail to find God it's our fault. And then God will have to condemn us.

I feel bad for God having all these imperfect beings who could really use some help in finding Him. Some of us are clearly flawed.

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I've had to do my own work, I don't want you to take my word for it. Using the shortcomings of religious narratives and religious people as an excuse not to pursue all truth no matter where it takes you would be self deception. I did that when I was on my prodigal adventure.

Colter said:

as an excuse not to pursue all truth no matter where it takes you

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This led you down false rabbit trails, and you haven't recovered yet.

What tricked you into thinking there was any truth in those trails,

is still keepin you in the dark, apparently (from all of your posts I've seen)...

Men do not find truth by following the devil in his many ways,

but only in God's Grace in seeking only for God by faith in JESUS,
which
necessarily includes, without exception, completely trusting His Word and Relying on Him, period. No other way, no other savior, no truth in any way contradicts His Word, ever.

Subduction Zone said:

Correct, the "original truth" is that it is a myth.

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As an atheist, that kind of lie is expected;

you will have to save yourself from YHWH'S judgment, death,

unless you turn to Him to accept His Truth, His Way, soon. --- He won't give a second chance after death, and may close the door to life - any opportunity - sooner than death.... His Choice: He won't negotiate.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

As an atheist, that kind of lie is expected;

you will have to save yourself from YHWH'S judgment, death,

unless you turn to Him to accept His Truth, His Way, soon. --- He won't give a second chance after death, and may close the door to life - any opportunity - sooner than death.... His Choice: He won't negotiate.

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Please, I don't lie. I don't need to lie. The evidence is on my side. And taking Genesis literally is a fairly recent trend. The fact that Genesis is not meant to be taken literally is not an attack on your god.

Subduction Zone said:

The Flood did not move anything at all and that is a huge problem no matter what you believe.

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It's not a problem for me. As the earth was covered with tall thick grasses with tough dense root systems there would have been practically none of the erosion and deposition that science insists on.

https://soilandhealth.org/wp-content/uploads/The-Wonderful-Prairie-Sod.pdf

Grass (grasslands) is mentioned often in the bible as the primary vegetative cover. This vegetation would be superior even to the varieties that appeared post flood or even those mentioned in the above link.

Job 5:25
"Thou shalt know also that thy seed shall be great, and thine offspring as the grass of the earth."

Grass not only covered the valleys and plains but the hills and mountainsides as well.

Psalm 147:8
"Who covereth the heaven with clouds, who prepareth rain for the earth, who maketh grass to grow upon the mountains."

So where would all this 'evidence' come from?

OldWiseGuy said:

It's not a problem for me. As the earth was covered with tall thick grasses with tough dense root systems there would have been practically none of the erosion and deposition that science insists on.

https://soilandhealth.org/wp-content/uploads/The-Wonderful-Prairie-Sod.pdf

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Since far smaller floods have torn up such surfaces in the past one that was orders of magnitude greater would have ripped through that like wet paper:

Missoula Floods - Wikipedia

I see that no one has an answer for what I like to call the "Lesson of the Cheetah" yet. The fact that you cannot safely grab anyone on the street for an organ transplant tells us that there was no flood.

Subduction Zone said:

Since far smaller floods have torn up such surfaces in the past one that was orders of magnitude greater would have ripped through that like wet paper:

Missoula Floods - Wikipedia

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You need to study hydrology. The flood would have done no such thing. The speed of the flood can be easily calculated. It was pretty gentle over most of the earth's surface. The 'inwash' would leave little evidence of erosion as the grasses and other vegetation would hold the soil. Only after the grasses were completely dead would some erosion occur in the 'outwash' as the flood receded, and that would have been insignificant. Very fine organic material would remain suspended and be swept out to sea. Heavier sediments would settle out very quickly and locally as well (even fine silt settles out quickly even in fast moving water. Stir up the bottom silt in a trout stream and you'll see what I mean). Of course there would have been some areas that showed huge erosion and deposition effects but they would have been quite rare, although quite dramatic.

Subduction Zone said:

Since far smaller floods have torn up such surfaces in the past one that was orders of magnitude greater would have ripped through that like wet paper:

Missoula Floods - Wikipedia

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The "Missoula Flood" might be replicated in certain mountain passes and other structures that narrow the flow of water and thus increase it's velocity, but the general topography wouldn't cause that effect.

OldWiseGuy said:

The "Missoula Flood" might be replicated in certain mountain passes and other structures that narrow the flow of water and thus increase it's velocity, but the general topography wouldn't cause that effect.

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Actually it was a flood over a very broad area.

And it was orders of magnitude smaller than the one that you propose.

Your flood would have left a huge mark.

OldWiseGuy said:

-snip- The speed of the flood can be easily calculated. -snip-

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Then do it, show us the math.

OldWiseGuy said:

Belief in the supernatural supports my arguments, your disbelief notwithstanding.

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Yes, yes... your beliefs "support" your beliefs.

Be carefull not to become to dizzy, while you're trapped in that circle.

AV1611VET said:

I'm sure blue skies tell you there was no flood.

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No, but that does not mean that someone else may not be able to explain that case.

I am rather surprised that you do not understand what an obstacle the story of the cheetahs is to your belief.