4 Day Work Week

Paradoxum · Jun 29, 2017

OldWiseGuy said:
Here's a good system; work more, make more.

Self-made millionaires agree on how many hours you should be working to succeed

A good system for what? Being money slaves? That doesn't sounds like a good life to me.

Paradoxum · Jun 29, 2017

DogmaHunter said:
So, really... the company has to pay for it either way?
Really what you are asking here is to work less or work slower while expecting the same pay?

Do you think that is fair?

I'm not sure that's the point I was making, but I'll reply to what you seem to be asking.

Yes, I think it's fairer. Productivity has increased, but the wages of the normal person hasn't. This is making it fair.

The rich have gotten richer, and the average person hasn't seen much of these profits. It hasn't been worse since the Napoleonic wars. Righting this inequality is fair. The economy is here for the people, all people (including the richest).

Paradoxum · Jun 29, 2017

OldWiseGuy said:
I can't speak for your economy but over here our economy is defined by opportunity, for anyone who chooses to take advantage of it.

Not everyone can have a top job. It's impossible for everyone to have the same quality of life open to them in basic capitalism, because not everyone can be a manager (etc). You need cleaners, and you likely need them to be paid much less than average managers.

I don't believe that an economic system that by necessarily requires people to have a lower quality of life, and have less power, is 'fair'.

Not everyone has the realistic opportunity to move up, because lower paid jobs are required.

Most others are quite content with what they earn.

If slave are content with being slaves, because that's all they've ever known, does that justify it?

Paradoxum · Jun 29, 2017

DogmaHunter said:
As co-founder of a software firm that is in the business (primarily) of management software for retail stores, that seems unacceptable.

We'ld have to hire extra people to ensure support during standard opening hours of our customers, without that support work standing in the way of new development.

This would only raise costs while not raising revenue.

My employees would surely love it. Me, the guy who's paying their wages, not so much.

How did the country function when people started working 5 days (instead of 6) and less hours? How was that possible, and don't you think people made the same arguments?

Why was reducing hows magically possible in the past, but how suddenly isn't?

Paradoxum · Jun 29, 2017

OldWiseGuy said:
Because it might be true?

Many prejudice things might be true, but shouldn't be assumed. Maybe all white men secretly want to kill everyone else, so should be oppressed. No one should assume it though.

So why would that be true?

You seem to be extremely negative of work itself. Men strongly attach their self worth to their work. Physically and mentally men are built for work. It's what we do.

Because there are no men in favour of a 4 day working week, it's just silly little girls like me?

I'm not sure people attaching their self-worth to paid work is, 1) healthy; 2) necessary, 3) desirable, or 4) particularly good.

People work because they have to, not because they want to. That's why they love Friday and hate Monday.

Paradoxum · Jun 29, 2017

Tree of Life said:
My point is that the situation you're envisioning is unrealistic. If you only work 4 days then you won't make enough money to afford the kind of lifestyle that you likely want.

Is it unrealistic to move from working 6 days to 5 days a week? Why was that possible, but 4 days isn't, even though productivity has increased?

What if companies are forced to pay the same? Why assume that that the state of the world when you were born is the only state possible?

And personally (which I'm not claiming is normal) my main issue in terms of money is not having a house. Otherwise, my issue is not having time to enjoy what I already have.

You say that the 5 day work week is "not fortunate". I say that I'm grateful to work 5 days a week.

Would you be grateful to have to work 6 or 7 days a week because that's the system? If you like 5 days, is that because you've been brainwashed to accept that, because that's the age you life in?

From a Christian perspective the work week was designed by God in the very beginning and is part of the fabric of creation. So it's not arbitrary. If it is violated then mankind will suffer.

In the original context wherein the Sabbath command was given people worked every day. It was an issue of faith to cease working for one day in order to quietly enjoy the work of God and trust that he provides for our needs.

It's seems arguing with a God opinion is pointless, but I'm not sure theologically your point stands up. (eg: 'God commanded' doesn't mean not arbitrary; and I don't remember a penalty in the Bible for working less days).

Anyway, original people lived in different times, what was necessary for them doesn't have to be necessary and good for us. My understanding is that nomads may have only worked 18 hours a day. Working 3 hours a day also doesn't seem so bad.

Ok. It's easy to oppose something or to complain about the current "system". After all, what is crooked cannot be made straight and what is lacking cannot be counted (Ecclesiastes 1:15). It's much more difficult to propose a viable solution. So what do you think should be done? Are you really going to go to your employer and demand that he/she pay you the same wages for one less day of work?

It's also easy to say things should stay the same.

I propose we vote for a party in government that will change things. Perhaps all companies should be democratic, so the employees decide policies (enforce my law for medium and large companies).

Maybe requiring people to work 5 days a week should be illegal (along with raising the minimum wage; or low wages should be connected to high wages, so one cant raise or lower without the other). Maybe bank holidays should be expanded until the take up 1/7 of all weeks.

Anyway, there's a good chance robots and AI will take our jobs. Maybe we should accept that and move on and work to live, rather than live to work?

seashale76 · Jun 30, 2017

Paradoxum said:
Well I do have multiple people to reply to. And this is the point I'm making.

I'd like to, but you didn't ask any questions to show where I need to clarify .

Fair enough, what are some examples?

Why don't you have to do them on Saturday and Sunday? (I'm assuming)

Why so? I'm genuinely asking.

Also, humans can go to the Moon, fly, make quantum computers, and soon go to Mars, but a four day work work is just impossible, even though people used to work more?

I actually work three days a week. I'm a critical care nurse and my patients are often barely stable. I do work Saturdays and Sundays (not every single one- but I am required to work a certain amount). I work twelve hour shifts- and if things need to get done outside of that time frame I do sometimes/often have to stay after to help get it done. That time adds up to 40 hours a week. My patients do not require a bare minimum of ho hum care. If I'm doing my job right and not letting people die on me then more work needs to be done. I can't just always pass the buck on to the next shift.

You seemed to be outright advocating for people to do less work while they are on the job. I want you to clarify exactly what you mean by that. In my own career, doing less equals negligence and could contribute to someone dying.

People in the hospital aren't magically better after Monday through Friday from 9 am to 5 pm and are only sick during a traditional work day. Some of us have to care for them during what you consider the useless off times.

OldWiseGuy · Jun 30, 2017

Paradoxum said:
A good system for what? Being money slaves? That doesn't sounds like a good life to me.

Most systems can accommodate the needs and desires of most people.

OldWiseGuy · Jun 30, 2017

Paradoxum said:
Not everyone can have a top job. It's impossible for everyone to have the same quality of life open to them in basic capitalism, because not everyone can be a manager (etc). You need cleaners, and you likely need them to be paid much less than average managers.

I don't believe that an economic system that by necessarily requires people to have a lower quality of life, and have less power, is 'fair'.

Not everyone has the realistic opportunity to move up, because lower paid jobs are required.

If slave are content with being slaves, because that's all they've ever known, does that justify it?

Of course not everyone can have the same quality of life at the same time. As most workers go through their working careers their income increases and their lifestyle improves. You can't expect a young person just entering the workforce to enjoy the same wages and benefits that older experienced workers do.

Slavery is a state of mind today, not a reality. Sadly the attitude of "I want it all and I want it now" still exists among many young people.

OldWiseGuy · Jun 30, 2017

Paradoxum said:
Is it unrealistic to move from working 6 days to 5 days a week? Why was that possible, but 4 days isn't, even though productivity has increased?

What if companies are forced to pay the same? Why assume that that the state of the world when you were born is the only state possible?

And personally (which I'm not claiming is normal) my main issue in terms of money is not having a house. Otherwise, my issue is not having time to enjoy what I already have.

Would you be grateful to have to work 6 or 7 days a week because that's the system? If you like 5 days, is that because you've been brainwashed to accept that, because that's the age you life in?

It's seems arguing with a God opinion is pointless, but I'm not sure theologically your point stands up. (eg: 'God commanded' doesn't mean not arbitrary; and I don't remember a penalty in the Bible for working less days).

Anyway, original people lived in different times, what was necessary for them doesn't have to be necessary and good for us. My understanding is that nomads may have only worked 18 hours a day. Working 3 hours a day also doesn't seem so bad.

It's also easy to say things should stay the same.

I propose we vote for a party in government that will change things. Perhaps all companies should be democratic, so the employees decide policies (enforce my law for medium and large companies).

Maybe requiring people to work 5 days a week should be illegal (along with raising the minimum wage; or low wages should be connected to high wages, so one cant raise or lower without the other). Maybe bank holidays should be expanded until the take up 1/7 of all weeks.

Anyway, there's a good chance robots and AI will take our jobs. Maybe we should accept that and move on and work to live, rather than live to work?

It sounds to me like you want the whole economic system to change for your benefit. Trust me, it ain't gonna happen.

OldWiseGuy · Jun 30, 2017

Paradoxum said:
People work because they have to, not because they want to. That's why they love Friday and hate Monday.

Then explain why many who don't have to work still do. Personally I wouldn't know what to do if I couldn't work. I think you are confusing those who love their jobs with those who don't. If you don't like your job, quit and find one you do like.

"Play is the work of children".
"Work is the play of adults."

Why deny us our "playtime"?

MustardSeeed · Jun 30, 2017

My work week is going to be max 3 days a week but 12 hour or more shifts

Unless I go part time which I'm considering, then I'd work 6 times a month

OldWiseGuy · Jun 30, 2017

Paradoxum said:
Because there are no men in favour of a 4 day working week, it's just silly little girls like me?

If you can provide for your needs in 4 work days more power to you, but don't make it universal. Some people want more than 4 days pay can provide.

Of course one can get ahead on only four days pay if for example they use the money to buy lumber and build a house. That would be a great wealth building plan. The only problem of course is that building a house takes.......(horrors)

......work.

Fantine · Jul 3, 2017

Hospital workers in our town work 3 12 hour shifts a week. Many people work 4 10 hour days. If you live a distance from work it's a great deal.

Paradoxum · Jul 8, 2017

seashale76 said:
I actually work three days a week. I'm a critical care nurse and my patients are often barely stable. I do work Saturdays and Sundays (not every single one- but I am required to work a certain amount). I work twelve hour shifts- and if things need to get done outside of that time frame I do sometimes/often have to stay after to help get it done. That time adds up to 40 hours a week. My patients do not require a bare minimum of ho hum care. If I'm doing my job right and not letting people die on me then more work needs to be done. I can't just always pass the buck on to the next shift.

I'm not sure if you working three days should be pro four days or pro five days.

You seemed to be outright advocating for people to do less work while they are on the job. I want you to clarify exactly what you mean by that. In my own career, doing less equals negligence and could contribute to someone dying.

I'm advocating people do more per hour, and work less hours.

Obviously that difference for professions where they are already pushed to the edge, like the NHS in the UK.

People in the hospital aren't magically better after Monday through Friday from 9 am to 5 pm and are only sick during a traditional work day. Some of us have to care for them during what you consider the useless off times.

But you wouldn't use that to make the weekend one day, or zero days would you (for everyone)? So why use that as an argument to stop the reduction of hours to 4 days (not necessarily consecutively).

Paradoxum · Jul 8, 2017

OldWiseGuy said:
Most systems can accommodate the needs and desires of most people.

So middle age feudalism would accommodate the desire for modern age computers?

Paradoxum · Jul 8, 2017

OldWiseGuy said:
Of course not everyone can have the same quality of life at the same time. As most workers go through their working careers their income increases and their lifestyle improves. You can't expect a young person just entering the workforce to enjoy the same wages and benefits that older experienced workers do.

Slavery is a state of mind today, not a reality. Sadly the attitude of "I want it all and I want it now" still exists among many young people.

I'm not saying everyone should have the same standard, especially when young.

Paradoxum · Jul 8, 2017

OldWiseGuy said:
It sounds to me like you want the whole economic system to change for your benefit. Trust me, it ain't gonna happen.

Yes, the system should change for the benefit of me and millions of others. If you don't believe it can happen, you are ignorant of history. We aren't at the end of history.

Paradoxum · Jul 8, 2017

OldWiseGuy said:
Then explain why many who don't have to work still do.

They appreciate the money (freedom), their job pays well, and they are okay with their job?

Personally I wouldn't know what to do if I couldn't work.

Well I think it's sad if a person doesn't know how to live their life beyond what they are economically required.

I think you are confusing those who love their jobs with those who don't.

I don't know what you mean. I know some people love their jobs. But I wonder if they would work as long if everyone else worked else, out of love? Or maybe you can love your job, and your life?

If you don't like your job, quit and find one you do like.

Like magic? And I'm the crazy person?

"Play is the work of children".
"Work is the play of adults."

The quote of slave masters. Adults believe in play, society just tries destroy their soul.

Paradoxum · Jul 8, 2017

OldWiseGuy said:
If you can provide for your needs in 4 work days more power to you, but don't make it universal. Some people want more than 4 days pay can provide.

Many can afford it if profits go to the people doing the work, not just upper management.

4 Day Work Week

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