Question in the sabbath

Open Heart · Jun 14, 2017

klutedavid said:
We are a new creation in Christ, the old creation is long gone. Your not looking into eternity in heaven, your gazing into the present.

I'm afraid I see you running around trying to skirt the issue. It's talking about the physical heaven and earth, and unless I'm not mistaken, it's all there right outside my front door.

Open Heart · Jun 14, 2017

klutedavid said:
The law simply tells you that you are not a righteous person. That is what the law is all about.

That's just ONE thing the law is all about. The law is also a way to know God, to love God, to be be intimate with God, to have a happier and healthier life, and to form a better society. Consider Psalm 19 and tell me what you think of what it says:

7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.

9 The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.

10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

Open Heart · Jun 14, 2017

klutedavid said:
Gentiles were never under the law. Gentiles never agreed to obey the law.
The Holy days are days that the nation of Israel celebrates. Why would I celebrate the passover, my ancestors were not refugees from Egypt.

You are correct. There is no reason you have to. You are not bound by the 613 commandments of Mosaic law. However, it would deepen your Christian faith if you came to a greater appreciation of its Jewish roots. You would do that by studying the Torah and perhaps attending one Seder Meal.

Open Heart · Jun 14, 2017

klutedavid said:
Hello Open Heart.

I reject a third temple, a faulty interpretation.

Will God tell a secular nation to build a third temple?

The fastest growing segment of the Israeli population is the Orthodox, who have many children. It may take a long time, but eventually they will control the politics simply because they have so many more children.

visionary · Jun 14, 2017

klutedavid said:
Hello visionary.

If even one of the smallest laws is obsolete, then all of the law has been fulfilled.

"...not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is fulfilled."

You can't remove one stroke of the law, not one letter, from the entire law.

Yep.. nothing has changed in God's thinking.

visionary · Jun 14, 2017

klutedavid said: ↑
Gentiles were never under the law. Gentiles never agreed to obey the law.
The Holy days are days that the nation of Israel celebrates. Why would I celebrate the passover, my ancestors were not refugees from Egypt.

I thought you were interested in being "a part of the commonwealth of Israel"... this is "part of the commonwealth" especially the parts that God instituted.

But then as you said.. Gentiles were never under the law, never agreed to obey the law,...
Ephesians 2:12
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

klutedavid · Jun 14, 2017

visionary said:
klutedavid said: ↑
Gentiles were never under the law. Gentiles never agreed to obey the law.
The Holy days are days that the nation of Israel celebrates. Why would I celebrate the passover, my ancestors were not refugees from Egypt.

I thought you were interested in being "a part of the commonwealth of Israel"... this is "part of the commonwealth" especially the parts that God instituted.

But then as you said.. Gentiles were never under the law, never agreed to obey the law,...
Ephesians 2:12
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Hello visionary.

I could never be a card carrying member of the commonwealth of Israel, because I am not a descendant of Abraham. I am not physically circumcised and I will not agree to the covenant of Mt Sinai.

I am a new creation in Christ, saved by grace through faith.

Your verse (Ephesians 2:12) does not say that gentiles need to become Jews, members of the commonwealth of Israel. Read the next line.

Ephesians 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Gentiles are not required to live like Jews, gentiles are brought near but not into the commonwealth of Israel.

klutedavid · Jun 14, 2017

Open Heart said:
The fastest growing segment of the Israeli population is the Orthodox, who have many children. It may take a long time, but eventually they will control the politics simply because they have so many more children.

Hello Open Heart.

The old covenant has passed, therefore, there will not be a third temple.

visionary · Jun 14, 2017

klutedavid said:
Hello Open Heart.

The old covenant has passed, therefore, there will not be a third temple.

Surprise.. God said there will be.

klutedavid · Jun 14, 2017

danny ski said:
I asked a specific question. No need to respond without offering an answer. The question was:"Where does it say in the Torah that it(the Torah) comes with an expiration date?" That in 50 billion years or so the Sun will absorb the Earth is a pretty common knowledge. Where is the "fulfillment" included in the Torah?

Hello danny.

Christ was the fulfillment, the absolute fulfillment of all things. The Torah is embedded in a covenant, the ten commandments are the words of that covenant. The Torah will expire when that covenant has expired.

Zechariah 11:10-11
And I took my staff, Beauty, and cut it in two, that I might break the covenant which I had made with all the peoples. 11 So it was broken on that day. Thus the poor of the flock, who were watching me, knew that it was the word of the LORD.

Exodus 24:8
So Moses took the blood and sprinkled it on the people, and said, “Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words.”

Open Heart · Jun 14, 2017

klutedavid said:
Hello Open Heart.

The old covenant has passed, therefore, there will not be a third temple.

Scripture says the old covenant is inferior, and is passing (present tense) but never says it is already gone. When Yeshua returns and the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31 is given to Israel, the Old Covenant will pass.

klutedavid · Jun 14, 2017

visionary said:
Surprise.. God said there will be.

Hello visionary.

Theocratic Israel has passed, there is no longer an old covenant, God cancelled that old covenant with Israel. There cannot ever be a physical temple in Jerusalem again.

Matthew 12:6
But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.

Yes visionary, God did say there would be a new temple, Christ was that new temple.
God's fulfillment of the Old Testament promises have always been in the spiritual realm.

Open Heart · Jun 14, 2017

klutedavid said:
there is no longer an old covenant, God cancelled that old covenant with Israel.

Give your BEST scripture for this. No need for a long list. Choose what you think the BEST verse for your argument is.

I hope this isn't your way of saying we are not to observe the commandments or that the Torah is invalid for today. Just a heads up, you might want to read the non-negotiable points section of the SOP before you post again, just to make sure there's no misunderstanding.

visionary · Jun 14, 2017

klutedavid said:
Hello visionary.

Theocratic Israel has passed, there is no longer an old covenant, God cancelled that old covenant with Israel. There cannot ever be a physical temple in Jerusalem again.

Matthew 12:6
But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.

Yes visionary, God did say there would be a new temple, Christ was that new temple.
God's fulfillment of the Old Testament promises have always been in the spiritual realm.

Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

klutedavid · Jun 14, 2017

Open Heart said:
Scripture says the old covenant is inferior, and is passing (present tense) but never says it is already gone. When Yeshua returns and the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31 is given to Israel, the Old Covenant will pass.

Open Heart.

Negative Open Heart, the prophesies distinctly state that God broke the old covenant with the nation of Israel. The promise of the old covenant was the possession of the land of Israel.

Luke 21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.

This event occurred in AD 70, all things have been fulfilled, Israel (Hagar) lost that promised land. The old covenant had already been broken by God.

Many of the New Testament letters were penned before AD 70, so the authors may not have fully realized the implications of the new covenant.

klutedavid · Jun 14, 2017

visionary said:
Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Hello visionary.

The new Jerusalem above is not the Jerusalem below. Theocratic Israel disappeared two thousand years ago and will never be seen again.

klutedavid · Jun 14, 2017

Open Heart said:
The fastest growing segment of the Israeli population is the Orthodox, who have many children. It may take a long time, but eventually they will control the politics simply because they have so many more children.

Hello Open Heart.

Modern Israel is a democratic nation, not a theocratic nation. Modern Israel is not the covenant nation of Exodus.

Matthew 9:17
Nor do people put new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wineskins burst, and the wine pours out and the wineskins are ruined; but they put new wine into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved.

Open Heart · Jun 14, 2017

klutedavid said:
Open Heart.

Negative Open Heart, the prophesies distinctly state that God broke the old covenant with the nation of Israel. The promise of the old covenant was the possession of the land of Israel.

Luke 21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.

This event occurred in AD 70, all things have been fulfilled, Israel (Hagar) lost that promised land. The old covenant had already been broken by God.

Many of the New Testament letters were penned before AD 70, so the authors may not have fully realized the implications of the new covenant.

That was your best scripture? Sad. Because the desolation of Israel is not the same thing as the end of the covenant. We know that there is one element of the covenant that is conditional -- the living on the land is dependent upon keeping the commandments. The hatred between Jews had grown so strong, there was simply no loving your neighbor as yourself. Thus, God destroyed the Temple and sent the Jews into Diaspora. But the Land belongs to Israel, whether Israel lives in the Land or not, because that part of the covenant is perpetual and unconditional. This is how the Jews could come back and make a new Nation in the Land in 1948. "The gifts and calling are irrevocable."

Open Heart · Jun 14, 2017

klutedavid said:
Modern Israel is a democratic nation, not a theocratic nation. Modern Israel is not the covenant nation of Exodus.

When the Orthodox have the greatest power in the Knesset, they will turn Israel back into a Theocracy.

You are confusing the national State of Israel with the People of Israel. It is the People of Israel which have a covenant. When I say ISRAEL, I'm not talking about the government over in the Middle East, I'm talking about the Children of Jacob, the Jews, God's covenant people. And Israel is back in the Promised Land.

You should know that you are in THE most Zionist, State of Israel loving forum in CF. You are welcome here, but just be prepared for our answers if things start getting anti-Israel.

visionary · Jun 14, 2017

klutedavid said:
Hello visionary.

The new Jerusalem above is not the Jerusalem below. Theocratic Israel disappeared two thousand years ago and will never be seen again.

Never said that the temple wasn't part of the new Jerusalem.

Question in the sabbath

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