Universalism...why not?

Which is it?

  • God doesn't want all men to be saved.

    Votes: 4 8.2%
  • God can't do what he wants to do.

    Votes: 2 4.1%
  • Neither, God will continue to work on unrepentant souls because his love & patience are unending.

    Votes: 40 81.6%
  • Don't know...never thought about this before.

    Votes: 3 6.1%

  • Total voters
    49

Dartman

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Dartman said:
Matthew 13:34
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Typical of cults, you take one verse of Scripture out of context of the chapter and use it to defend your beliefs.

Who is the "they" in this chapter? It is the multitude who were following Him.
Yep, just like the multitude Jesus was talking to in John 6

Light of the East said:
And He said why He was doing this.

Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Yep, this is exactly why Jesus phrased his remarks in John 6 the way he did.

Light of the East said:
So your claim that Jesus spoke in parables all the time is just plain bogus.
That's not my claim. Go back, read more carefully this time.

Light of the East said:
Bottom line is that you are fighting against 2,000 years of Church teaching and history with one verse taken out of context.
Your assessment is inaccurate .... again. The verse I quoted applies perfectly to the passage you quoted, and, the Scriptures do a wonderful job warning us against trusting the teachings of the "Great Harlot".
 
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Hethatreadethit

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>>>>>>>>>Would it surprise you to know that Universalism was present in the early church and that people like Origen and Clement gleaned it from the scriptures? Would it surprise you that Eternal Torment (ET) wasn't commonly accepted until around the year 500?
  1. Not a writer among those who describe the heresies of the first three hundred years intimates that Universalism was then a heresy, though it was believed by many, if not by a majority, and certainly by the greatest of the fathers.
  2. Not a single creed for five hundred years expresses any idea contrary to universal restoration, or in favor of endless punishment.
  3. With the exception of the arguments of Augustine (A.D. 420), there is not an argument known to have been framed against Universalism for at least four hundred years after Christ, by any of the ancient fathers.
  4. While the councils that assembled in various parts of Christendom, anathematized every kind of doctrine supposed to be heretical, no oecumenical council, for more than five hundred years, condemned Universalism, though it had been advocated in every century by the principal scholars and most revered saints.
  5. As late as A.D. 400, Jerome says "most people" (plerique). and Augustine "very many" (quam plurimi), believed in Universalism, notwithstanding that the tremendous influence of Augustine, and the mighty power of the semi-pagan secular arm were arrayed against it.
  6. The principal ancient Universalists were Christian born and reared, and were among the most scholarly and saintly of all the ancient saints.~The Beautiful Heresy- Christian Universalism: The Early Church
 
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Dartman

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I would say it is.....I'll erase it, but your arrogance and unteachability is stunning.
LOL .... so you agree to erase ONE personal attack, and replace it with a worse one????
I have a suggestion, please just stick to providing Scripture for your position, and leave the personal attacks out completely.
I promise I will give any Scriptures you provide the honor and respect due God's words.
 
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Hethatreadethit

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LOL .... so you agree to erase ONE personal attack, and replace it with a worse one????
I have a suggestion, please just stick to providing Scripture for your position, and leave the personal attacks out completely.
I promise I will give any Scriptures you provide the honor and respect due God's words.
 
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Hethatreadethit

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i WOULD like a reply! Satan should be accepted to the Church of Universalism, He was just weak, he really didn't mean it, and I'm sure he said he was sorry, it was just a big mistake, a poor judgment that only cost billions of lives.
 
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ClementofA

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The same word is used to describe time in Heaven. Is it limited as well?

Scripture contrasts destinies between believers & unbelievers in the coming age called the millennium.

Scripture also speaks of universal reconciliation.

Those are two entirely different subjects.

There are many Christian websites & books that explain them.

I recommend this free online book:

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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Dartman

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Dartman said:
Nope, God brings to a compete end all suffering and death.
1 Cor 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

That sounds like universalism.
Death is destroyed AFTER all the unrepentant wicked who have ever lived are destroyed. At that point, all of those judged righteous have been made immortal, like Jesus. So, there are no mortals left to die. Death is thus destroyed. Those "burned up" in the lake of fire are "ashes under the soles of your feet";
Mal 4:1-3
For, behold, the day cometh, it burneth as a furnace; and all the proud, and all that work wickedness, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith Jehovah of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But unto you that fear my name shall the sun of righteousness arise with healing in its wings; and ye shall go forth, and gambol as calves of the stall.

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I make, saith Jehovah of hosts.
 
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Silmarien

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I like your sensibility, Silmarien. It's rather refreshing since most of the time I like to just discuss things philosophically with those here at CF. At other times I get a little taken aback by what I see to be excessive liberties with biblical interpretation which many times come out of misapplied (or messy) hermeneutical approaches.

Anyway, I need to go to bed, too. Perhaps we can discuss our respective views on how epistemology frames these issues for each of us some time and how we think we may or may not be able to grasp something substantive in the Bible..... :cool:

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

I am not sure that "sensibility" is the correct word! I am really just an agnostic mess, but I took too close a look at this religion of yours and now I can't look away! The nuances of theology still feel too hypothetical to get too worked up over, though. (I'm too busy freaking out over whether or not I'm really just an atheist in denial. Which is odd, since I've never been a sincere atheist.)

I do think it's my secularism that makes Annihilationism seem like a reasonable option, since I don't believe very strongly in life after death at all. I do lean very Orthodox, though, and one of the things that I very much do believe is that if I'm ever certain of my salvation, I'll know for a fact that I've lost it. If there is a hell, it's self-inflicted and I absolutely do deserve it, but... it is very difficult to combine that sort of mentality with Annihilationism and not end up worshipping a God that you expect will snuff you out of existence. Which is pretty much the opposite of faith. So Annihilationism gets to join Calvinism on my self-harm theology pile now, haha.

So, yeah. I think it's a mistake to discuss Annihilationism, Universalism, and eternal torment outside of the greater theological context, because they do act very differently depending upon your soteriology.
 
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GillDouglas

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THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.
THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.
THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.
THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.

I wonder if that is enough to get your attention?

There
is
no
hell.

Jesus never spoke of it. The Jews knew of no such place.

When we die, we go to be immediate into His presence to be judged by the presence of Truth. He is the Truth, and His very presence will judge us and all of our actions. The wicked will find the fire of His love intolerable, a burning fire which torments them. They will hate being in His presence.

The righteous, those who have become like Him, will find that the fire of His love is warm, refreshing, and most importantly, cleansing of all remaining stain in them so that they can enter into complete union with Him.

This is the afterlife, not some nonsensical place called "hell" made up by Latin theologians who didn't know Greek and didn't care that they didn't know Greek. Christ's death as emptied Sheol, redeemed the just, and plundered the household of the evil one, taking back all souls because all things belong to God alone and not the Usurper.
If what you believe to be true is in fact correct then God's righteousness is compromised, repentance is optional, and the atonement is unnecessary. In fact, because you would prefer to tone down or tame the hard truths of Scripture, the Word of God is nullified.

It is a serious mistake to think that you're improving or enhancing Scripture by blunting its sharp edges. "The word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart" (Hebrews 4:12) The Gospel is to be an affront to fleshly pride, offensive to human sensibilities, foolishness in the eyes of worldly wisdom, and contrary to all carnal judgements.

The doctrine of hell stands as a warning and a reminder of what a loathsome reality sin is. No reasonable or godly person delights in the reality of damnation. Yet the severity of God's wrath and truth of hell are prominent in Scripture. The New Testament speaks more vividly and more frequently about hell than the Old Testament does, and Jesus Himself has had more to say about the subject than any other prophet or biblical writer. Jesus said "Do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have nothing more that they can do. But I warn you whom to fear: fear Him who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear Him!" (Luke 12:4-5)

You're doing no one any favors by downplaying the truth about God's wrath and the severity of His judgement. What is the good news without the reason for it? If God intends to capitulate to the stubborn will of man and forgo the demands of His perfect righteousness, what is the point? The problem with you, and people like you is that you lack a real fear of God. If you do not reconsider your way of thinking, then you run the risk of endangering yourself and others with "the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty" (Revelations 19:15)
 
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Der Alte

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>>>>>>>>>Would it surprise you to know that Universalism was present in the early church and that people like Origen and Clement gleaned it from the scriptures? Would it surprise you that Eternal Torment (ET) wasn't commonly accepted until around the year 500?Not a writer among those who describe the heresies of the first three hundred years intimates that Universalism was then a heresy, though it was believed by many, if not by a majority, and certainly by the greatest of the fathers.Not a single creed for five hundred years expresses any idea contrary to universal restoration, or in favor of endless punishment.With the exception of the arguments of Augustine (A.D. 420), there is not an argument known to have been framed against Universalism for at least four hundred years after Christ, by any of the ancient fathers.
While the councils that assembled in various parts of Christendom, anathematized every kind of doctrine supposed to be heretical, no oecumenical council, for more than five hundred years, condemned Universalism, though it had been advocated in every century by the principal scholars and most revered saints.

  1. As late as A.D. 400, Jerome says "most people" (plerique). and Augustine "very many" (quam plurimi), believed in Universalism, notwithstanding that the tremendous influence of Augustine, and the mighty power of the semi-pagan secular arm were arrayed against it.
  2. The principal ancient Universalists were Christian born and reared, and were among the most scholarly and saintly of all the ancient saints.~The Beautiful Heresy- Christian Universalism: The Early Church
Well it must be true some guy named Brian, no last name given, who states no qualifications in Hebrew and Greek, posted it on his blog. And this blog does not quote even one credible, verifiable, historical source for any of the information. In the comments some poor lost soul praised Brian for "these unassailable tidbits to point out the Universalism of early Christendom."
This blog is a good example of what I call the "Itching ear" syndrome.

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
 
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Der Alte

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Death is destroyed AFTER all the unrepentant wicked who have ever lived are destroyed. At that point, all of those judged righteous have been made immortal, like Jesus. So, there are no mortals left to die. Death is thus destroyed. Those "burned up" in the lake of fire are "ashes under the soles of your feet";
Mal 4:1-3
For, behold, the day cometh, it burneth as a furnace; and all the proud, and all that work wickedness, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith Jehovah of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But unto you that fear my name shall the sun of righteousness arise with healing in its wings; and ye shall go forth, and gambol as calves of the stall.

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I make, saith Jehovah of hosts.
Malachi is not about the eternal fate of the unrighteous. It is about what happens on one day in this world. vs. 1 "the day cometh" vs. 5 "in the day that I make." The ashes of the unrighteous will not be in Paradise and the righteous will not be walking on them for eternity.
 
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Dartman

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Dartman said:
Death is destroyed AFTER all the unrepentant wicked who have ever lived are destroyed. At that point, all of those judged righteous have been made immortal, like Jesus. So, there are no mortals left to die. Death is thus destroyed. Those "burned up" in the lake of fire are "ashes under the soles of your feet";
Mal 4:1-3
For, behold, the day cometh, it burneth as a furnace; and all the proud, and all that work wickedness, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith Jehovah of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But unto you that fear my name shall the sun of righteousness arise with healing in its wings; and ye shall go forth, and gambol as calves of the stall.

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I make, saith Jehovah of hosts.
Malachi is not about the eternal fate of the unrighteous. It is about what happens on one day in this world. vs. 1 "the day cometh" vs. 5 "in the day that I make." The ashes of the unrighteous will not be in Paradise and the righteous will not be walking on them for eternity.
First, it IS about the eternal fate of the proud, and all that work wickedness.
Second It DOES happen one day on the earth ... described as "the lake of fire" in Rev 20, and is explained in 2 Peter 3:10-13

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


Third, the Paradise of God is "the NEW heavens and NEW earth".... which John records Jehovah/YHVH God as stating "behold, I make ALL THINGS NEW".
Rev 21:1-5 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And He that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I am not sure that "sensibility" is the correct word!
Lol! How modest you are. But, I've read a number of your posts (20 or so?) since you've started here on CF, and I like your approach, even if I may not always agree with some of your specifics.

I am really just an agnostic mess, but I took too close a look at this religion of yours and now I can't look away! The nuances of theology still feel too hypothetical to get too worked up over, though. (I'm too busy freaking out over whether or not I'm really just an atheist in denial. Which is odd, since I've never been a sincere atheist.)
I can relate with that feeling. My studies in philosophy (along with the presence of a few bad life experiences) have tipped my spiritual composure more than once. But, somehow, the lights always seems to come back on.

I do think it's my secularism that makes Annihilationism seem like a reasonable option, since I don't believe very strongly in life after death at all.
I can see how there might be some analogous patterns one could infer here. We find on the secular side Darkness and Gloom for the future after one becomes flower fodder. And what do we find on the Christian side for unbelievers according to Annihilationists? Yep, a similar promise of Darkness and Gloom. Or I guess it would be Gloom and then Darkness, but whatever--I have a hard time sorting out the nothingness of it all on a conceptual level.

I do lean very Orthodox, though, and one of the things that I very much do believe is that if I'm ever certain of my salvation, I'll know for a fact that I've lost it.
mmmm....ok.....I think the Apostle Paul might agree with you in a certain kind of way.

If there is a hell, it's self-inflicted and I absolutely do deserve it, but... it is very difficult to combine that sort of mentality with Annihilationism and not end up worshipping a God that you expect will snuff you out of existence. Which is pretty much the opposite of faith.
wow....shades of Sartre...that's a different way of looking at it.

For some reason, the aesthetics involved in my perception of Jesus have had the strange affect of precluding most negative concerns I might be tempted to have about being snuffed out by God. However, I do have to admit that before I was a Christian, I was always concerned about just simply disappearing altogether when I died.

So Annihilationism gets to join Calvinism on my self-harm theology pile now, haha.
Lol! I never thought of Annihilationism being conjoined with Calvinism on a “self-harm” list. But, anything can happen in this existentially shaded world we live in. You're funny.

So, yeah. I think it's a mistake to discuss Annihilationism, Universalism, and eternal torment outside of the greater theological context, because they do act very differently depending upon your soteriology.
As I said....I like your approach. In my estimation, context is key, even if none of us have really been given the secret formula for figuring all of this out all by our lonesome.

If there is one thing I am confident about in my interpretation is that Universalism isn't an interpretive option. But, what biblical contexts do you think bring some substance to how we should shape our understanding of personal eschatology, Silmarien? :cool:

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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ClementofA

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This blog is a good example of what I call the "Itching ear" syndrome.
2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Lusts (or desires) would include the hateful, murderous kind, those attributed to the devil by the same Greek word here:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Groups such as the KKK, for example, attract such people with a lust for hate.

"Historically the KKK used terrorism, both physical assault and murder, against groups or individuals whom they opposed."

Gal.5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like...

The lusts, desires and works of the flesh include wrath, hatred, idolatry:

Jer. 7:30 "For the sons of Judah have done that which is evil in My sight," declares the LORD, "they have set their detestable things in the house which is called by My name, to defile it. 31"They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire,which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind.

The lust of the flesh also includes those who delight in the thought they are special, better than others, or that others will roast in hell. They can't bear the thought that people like Hitler or tax collectors would ever be saved. In that regard, the Pharisees & their followers in Jesus' time come to mind. For various reasons the endless punishment fantasy appeals to a certain type of people and their hateful lusts.

Both sadistic & masochistic types would be attracted to the ECT teaching, including abusers, those who have been abused & feel they deserve it, etc.

2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Such as the fable or myth of endless torments of the Dark & Middle ages, Inquisitions, Crusades, burning of "heretics", etc.

In contrast to the fables & myths of endless torments, Paul says again to Timothy:

1Tim.4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

9This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

1Tim.2 1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
 
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Daniel9v9

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No, that's not what I'm getting at.

He says in Isaiah 45:7 that He creates evil (a.k.a. distress, misery, injury, calamity, as well as evil).

Where do I say salvation should be credited to us?

Our sinful nature was imputed onto us without our consent. I've made the observation earlier in this thread along the lines of how odd it is that believers in free-will don't seem to object to this, yet they object to the notion that salvation could be imputed onto us in the very same way that sin was.

As for being blamed for specific wrongdoings, sure, I think we should be held accountable for those, and that's what our legal system is for. Not to mention that consequences are conveniently built into wrongdoings, so punishment by the crime comes around as surely as punishment for it, sooner or later. Yet there's quite a difference between an eye for an eye and infinite torture for finite wrongdoing, wouldn't you agree?

First of all, it's certainly not my intention to put words in your mouth, so if I have wrongly accused you of something you don't believe, my sincerest apologies! Nonetheless, the reason I raised these questions is because it does sound like this is where you're going; namely, the problem of the origin of evil and questions around the idea of a meritorious salvation (You wrote: "If our salvation isn't to our credit, our doom can't logically be to our discredit.") Now, I understand that this could also be understood "Because our salvation isn't to our credit....", so I'll leave this alone, and I'm glad you recognize that salvation is only found in Christ, by the mercies of God.

However, if we say that God bestows or imputes evil, we are in grave error, for this directly contradicts God's Word - for it's written that only God is good, holy and righteous; that He alone is the source of love and all that is good!

Isaiah 45:7 in its right context is talking about God's righteousness. This can be clearly understood from reading the whole chapter as opposed to isolating this verse. Just look at the following verse: Isaiah 45:8

So, this verse is NOT to be confused with evil in general (sin, rebellion, the source of evil), but rather with God's righteous punishment of evil. In other words, Isaiah 45:7 testifies to the polar opposite of evil: It's God punishing evil. It's affirming God's goodness and righteousness. Furthermore, this Hebrew word used here doesn't exclusively mean "evil", but "calamity" - again, talking about destruction of evil and NOT creation, bestowing or imputing of evil. This is crucial to get right!
Yet again, the context and words used in Lamentations 3:38 and Amos 3:6 agrees with the above and should NOT be used to pin the source of evil on God.

Next, the modern notion that we are not to be blamed for Adam's rebellion is something that is admittedly difficult to grasp in our day, because we live in a individualistic time - it's something that is built into our culture and our thinking, but it wasn't always like this. There's a few things I would like to highlight:

1. Even if we completely disregard the fall of Adam, we have all personally sinned; this is the reality and we can't pin our sin and rebellion on anyone else. We are all guilty and we are all evil.

2. God created Adam, and it was "very good"; Adam originally being the perfect image of God and the height of the human race (before our Lord Jesus Christ), making him our representative (before our Lord Jesus Christ). So, if Adam failed, we all failed, for we are lesser than Adam. If Adam willingly sinned and rebelled against God, we all have. "Adam" means "man" or "mankind" and it denotes all of us. Just because this is a foreign concept to our modern ears, doesn't make it any less true, for this is how it was understood among the ancients. We can see examples of this when the Israelites would tear their clothes and lament over the nation. In Daniel 9 we can see Daniel interceding for Israel, while at the same time sharing the guilt.

3. God did not impute evil, but through Adam's (and consequently our) evil and selfish ambition, sin was born. So we can't blame God for imputing evil, but only man; that is, ourselves.

In summary, we all sinned then, and we all sin now, and we all sin continuously, with no natural regard for God or His good and holy will. Only Christ can take away our sins, and only by God's grace may we have life.

Lastly, the notion that our sins are not worthy of eternal damnation testifies to a lack of understanding about the severity of sin. To give an earthly example: If you punch your friend, you can get away pretty easily, but if you punch the Queen of England, it could be considered an act of terrorism, which would potentially give a pretty severe punishment. It's an imperfect analogy, and I wouldn't push it too far, but the point is this: Any sin against God, no matter how great or insignificant it may appear, is direct opposition to God, and by this we are setting ourselves above God. This is an infinitely severe offense - so great, we can't even comprehend it! Now, add to this, the rejection of God's grace - should we reject Jesus as Lord, we are in fact making Christ out to be a liar, deceiver and unworthy - to think this, is an even greater crime, only worthy of damnation.
Now, damnation is this: not that God or any devil is torturing us for all eternity, but that we, because we rejected God, must exist apart from God, who is the only source of goodness, kindness, love and grace. This is hell; an existence void of God. This is what is spoken of in Matthew 22:1-14, that we are cast out from God's presence.

Sorry yet again for another lengthy post, but I hope this clears things up. But, I want to end with the question I asked three times now: Where in Scripture does it say, or even hint to, that whoever through sin and rebellion rejects God's grace, namely Jesus Christ, will have life? The reason I keep asking this, is to illustrate that this claim is both unbiblical and dangerous as it goes against the Gospel and does harm to people. To preach that whoever rejects Christ will have life is a false gospel.
 
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The Times

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They did not use Universalism within your current context of the usage of the term. Your 100% misquoting the Church fathers to give life to a heresy that all will be saved.

When Athiests die, are they saved?
When snake worshippers die, are they saved?
When Satanists die, are they saved?

Not until they first go through the scourging of God for their sins. They will be plunged into the fire of His love and it will burn and torment them for all the sins they have committed in their lives. Their willfullness, their rebellion, their love of sin, will meet the love of God, and it will be like AC current hitting a DC drive motor!

Have you ever seen what happens when AC juice hits a DC motor. It is horrible for the motor because the motor cannot take it. Likewise, a soul in a state of sinfulness and selfishness, meeting the love of God, will be tormented.

After the scourging has done its work and the justice of God has been proportionally meted out to the rebellious soul, Patristic Universalism sees that this is the point in the souls' existence where, having seen its wickedness and been punished (scourged) for it, the soul has the opportunity to turn to God in repentance.

This is where you differ from the Patristic Universalists. You don't believe there is a second chance for repentance, and quite frankly,
this is where I have the most problem also. If you have read any of my posts, you should know that I am not totally onboard with this as of now. And the reason is that there are some men (and women) of whom it is hard to imagine that they would ever repent, even after a prolonged period of the most severe scourging. I have a hard time imagining an Idi Amin, a Josef Stalin, a Pol Pot, a Margaret Sanger, and many other deeply hardened souls coming to Christ, even after they have been beaten severely for their sins and even with Christ now visible to them and pleading with them to come to Him

That is the point where I have a real problem. I wonder if they will simply become harder and harder in their sin, and one thing that points to this from Scripture is that the devil Himself sees the Lord in all His loving beauty and rejects Christ and His love for his own ego. How can he do that, seeing Christ in all His beauty? I do not understand.


If you answered yes to any of the above, your not even close to what the Church fathers taught, not even close. In fact if this lifetime is not the means test for a person's salvation, then Christ died for nothing. God came as Jesus of Nazareth and he died on the cross, then he said come and follow me.

But is this really a fair test? We have a nature which is broken and inclined to sin, a devil who is allowed to trick, test, tempt, and deceive us, and eyes that no longer see God clearly as Adam did? How is this anything but a race that is rigged against us from the very beginning? It is like strapping 20 pound weights to the ankles of an Olympic runner and then expecting him to win the gold medal. Ain't gonna happen unless someone picks him up and carries him in a car across the line.

Let me ask you this - could it be that rather than being a test between salvation and utter torment forever, could it be a test to assign different levels of glory and responsibility in the Kingdom in the coming age? A Josef Stalin might be redeemed (again, assuming that he is capable of repenting) to be a very dim soul of dim glory and no authority in the Kingdom, whereas an Antony of the Desert will shine like the brightest noon sun, and have great authority.

I'm not saying this is true, it is something that I wonder could be perhaps another explanation of this journey we are on in this world.


Jesus said not every one who says lord lord will inherit eternal life, except those who do the fathers will. Doing the fathers will is solely in this lifetime, and this lifetime is temporal testing platform that God uses to either accept or to reject people. Once we pass away, there is no more carrying our crosses and following Jesus, let alone doing the Father's will. The work of faith is in this lifetime, after comes judgement before the judgement seat of Christ, that at this time it is Justice and not Grace that you are facing.

First and foremost, Universalism salvation doctrine is firmly planted for most people, by enlarge to be purgatively cleansed in a bodyless state of being within the afterlife, for the sins committed whilst the subject lived on earth.

This becomes most problematic for the very fundemental reasons to why Jesus died on the cross, that he may bring salvation to the physically living spiritually dead subjects and NOT for the physically dead spiritually dead.

31Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” (Luke 5:31-32)

Those who died without Christ are no longer under the Grace of the cross, as Hebrews writer in Hebrews 9:17 states that a witness is connected to the blood covenant until the witness dies, where they have shed their blood also through death.

In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. (Hebrews 12:4)

The Christian faith clearly dissassociates itself from the Universalist religion that removes the roll of the Pentecostal Holy Ghost altogether. It is clear that one must be born of the Holy Ghost as a new Creation, otherwise as Jesus said the world does not know Him nor can see Him (John 14:17). Holy Ghost remains the sanctifier and guarantee of the subject whilst the subject is in the world. If the subject doesnt know the Holy Ghost in this life and neither is indwelled by Him in this life, then the God of the living has no dealings with the subjects who are both physically dead spiritually dead.

John 3:5.
Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.


Since neither the justication works of the cross is available to the physically dead spiritually dead and the sanctification works of the Holy Ghost are completely removed from these subjects, then the God of the living has no business to apportion his Grace outside of the testing platform of this temporal life in the here and now.

Those who are physically dead spiritually dead and who knew not Christ or the Holy Ghost in this earthly life, will not ever see Christ or the Holy Ghost in this life, neither in the afterlife. The words of Jesus stand and his authority trumps any opinion of another human being.

Now do you all see that Universalism is a fake, false and phoney religion that places God under obligation of saving all men. God is not obligated to anyone, if Jesus said to the physically living spiritually dead that they can NOT enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit, then how could the physicaly dead spiritually dead who do not have access to the cross of Christ or the Pentecostal Holy Ghost after their blood is shed (the dead), be under the saving Grace of God, if the power of the trinity has not brought that subject into the fullness of Christ in this earthly life?

The Heresy of Universalism is utter enmity to the trinity who is God.
 
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The Times

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Firstly, I will make my claims.....

Universalism is an outright denial of the Holy Trinity.
Universalism is an outright denial of the Word of God.
Universalism is an outright denial of the Cross of Christ.
Universalism is the Strong Delusion that all the world and the one world ecumenical religions are falling for.
Universalism is the Great Falling Away from the faith and Cross of Christ.

Universalism is turning out to be the Strong Delusion in the times we are living in. Universalism is the Great falling away from the faith once given to the apostolic saints.

Now, whilst referring to my previous post #721, please watch these two short YouTube videos and understand why Universalism is being pushed to usher in the Luciferean AntiChrist gospel in place of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the sacrifice on the Cross at Calvary that was the ransom paid in full, for our reconciliation to God through faith works in the Son of God.

31And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. 32And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. 33And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 34Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. (Daniel 11:31-35)

The Abomination of Desolation is the Universalism Luciferean gospel in place of the daily sacrifice of the blood of Christ.

These two YouTube videos highlight the quint essential plots of the devil to use flatteries in the times that we are living in, to corrupt the gospel of Jesus Christ and to do away with the blood covenant (daily sacrifice).



The movie Shack is supported by Universalists and it is quite easy to desiminate how the Holy Trinity is attacked and the Word of God is made into a ranting child out for revenge, which really discloses Universalism as a vehicle to a Gnostic Ethereal god who opens the door to his house to those who never go through and who are NOT justified by Jesus Christ nor are indwelled and sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

Universalism is the 21st century heresy that is being pushed for a one world Unitarian religious system of the AntiChrist. Warning signs are there and people, especially many unsuspecting Christian brothers and sisters ought to be ready because persecution is coming for the true Christians and Eastern Orthodoxy and Orthodoxy are warning that this moral concept of life that is corrupting nature is coming from the king of the west, that is the western Autonomous law society who are approving Luciferean practices that are AS ABOVE ON EARTH SO BELOW IN HELL.
 
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ClementofA

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A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Here the punishment of those who've rejected the Lord is said to be worse than death under Moses law, which included stoning. Stoning to death is not much of a punishment. People suffered far worse fates on the racks of the Medieval Inquisitionists.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would suffer endless torments in fire, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is a sadist for all eternity.
 
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