Universalism...why not?

Which is it?

  • God doesn't want all men to be saved.

    Votes: 4 8.2%
  • God can't do what he wants to do.

    Votes: 2 4.1%
  • Neither, God will continue to work on unrepentant souls because his love & patience are unending.

    Votes: 40 81.6%
  • Don't know...never thought about this before.

    Votes: 3 6.1%

  • Total voters
    49

Dartman

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You mean like you denying that the Eucharist is the very Body and Blood of our Lord, as Jesus said and make quite clear in the Scriptures? ("This IS my Body...")
Show me a text that uses the phrase "very body and blood".

The symbolism Jesus intended is blatantly obvious. The prohibition of LITERALLY partaking of blood is clear in both OT and NT.

Your point is obviously a feeble attempt to support an unsupportable theory.
 
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mkgal1

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The History of *Christian* Universalism:

Linked Article said:
Universalism is a major spiritual tradition dating back to the Apostles of Jesus Christ and the ancient Christian church. It is an understanding of the Gospel that has inspired saints, mystics, philosophers, theologians, and churches in nearly every era of religious history from the time of Jesus to today. Even before the proclamation of the Christian Gospel, there were foreshadowings of Universalism in the Hebrew scriptures as well as in Greek and Eastern philosophy — some of which taught the truths of reformative divine justice, the potential of all people to be perfected in the divine image, and the emanation and restoration of all things back to the Source of All Being.

Numerous verses in the writings of St. Paul speak of God’s plan for the ultimate reconciliation of all, and Paul approvingly referred to the practice of baptism on behalf of the dead in the Corinthian church he founded (1 Cor. 15:29). This practice presupposes that God will save even those who died in sin and unbelief. Paul’s vigorous and courageous efforts to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ were probably the most important factor in the development of Christianity as a major world religion. He was at the forefront of the movement to include non-Jews in God’s new community of faith and to broaden the understanding of salvation beyond the confines of Jewish law. Paul created an intellectually coherent view of the meaning and message of Christ that was heavily focused around the teaching that through successive ages of time, God is in the process of bringing all beings back to Himself — that through the transformative influence of His firstborn Son, the Christ, all people can be raised up into the station of mature sons and daughters of God (e.g. see 1 Cor. 15:22-28, 2 Cor. 3:18, Gal. 4:4-5, Eph. 5:1).

The early church from the time of the Apostles until the 4th century was primarily a Universalist church. Most of the church fathers during this period believed that all people will be saved. Over time, alternative doctrines about the fate of sinners grew more popular, such as annihilationism and eternal conscious torment. These doctrines were often held by Christians who could not read the New Testament in the original Greek language in which it was written, and who interpreted the Bible through the lens of barbaric forms of paganism. It is noteworthy that Irenaeus the Bishop of Lyons wrote a lengthy book called Against Heresies in the late 2nd century, which never once mentioned universal salvation as a heretical belief. This is because for the first few centuries of Christian history, Universalism prevailed as the mainstream understanding of the Gospel.~The History of Universalism – The Christian Universalist Association
 
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Light of the East

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The Word of God is a sharp, two-edged sword that both softens and hardens hearts, comforts and afflicts the weary, saves and damns sinners. To understand and teach the Divine Wrath of God is to place the black velvet backdrop that causes the diamond of God's mercy to shine brighter than a million suns. In preaching wrath, we most brilliantly showcase the gracious mercy towards sinners. Addressing the wrath of God is not optional for the faithful, it is divinely mandated.

This is traditional Calvinist belief which I heard for 12 years and never questioned. Let's see just how SICK AND DEPRAVED this teaching actually is.

Suppose I have two children. Both of them have misbehaved, badly. They set a fire which consumed a shed and caused damage to the yard.

So the first child I take out, put in a wood chipper and walk away from the bloody, shredded bits. (This is a very close description of some of Dante's sociopathic views of hell).

The second one I not only do nothing to, but pay for the damage myself and then buy that child a new toy.

And you are saying that my actions towards the first make me seem like a brilliant and wonderful father to the second?????

I say that if a man did this in my neighborhood he would get the electric chair!!!!!!

Glory my foot!!!!!

It is far more glorious of God to forgive than to tear sinners limb from limb. But Calvinism doesn't "get it."
 
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Light of the East

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Show me a text that uses the phrase "very body and blood".

The symbolism Jesus intended is blatantly obvious. The prohibition of LITERALLY partaking of blood is clear in both OT and NT.

Your point is obviously a feeble attempt to support an unsupportable theory.

So you admit that you don't even know the meaning of the word "IS" and yet you want to teach us all theology?
 
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Albion

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THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.THERE IS NO HELL. THERE IS NO HELL.
Does it cause you any discomfort to know that your own church disagrees?
 
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Dartman

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Uhhhhhhhhhhhh......they didn't HAVE any Scriptures with which to guide the New Covenant Church. Just the Old Covenant writings. The canon was not closed for another 400 years!
The Scriptures were written before 100AD. The early Church had the writings of the apostles. The canon is merely an opinion regarding which books were authentic.
I happen to believe God guided those deciding, in spite of their erroneous beliefs.
 
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Light of the East

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Show me a text that uses the phrase "very body and blood".

The symbolism Jesus intended is blatantly obvious. The prohibition of LITERALLY partaking of blood is clear in both OT and NT.

Your point is obviously a feeble attempt to support an unsupportable theory.


Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Jhn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Jhn 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
Jhn 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

You claim to believe the Bible, but you don't even believe this. Yet this was the teaching everywhere for the first 1500 years of the Christian faith. No one taught your grape juice and Ritz cracker "memorial meal." No one believed it.

But you are saying that you are actually smarter than the very men who learned directly from the Apostles, who in turn learned from Christ?

Brilliant!
 
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Dartman

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Dartman said:
Show me a text that uses the phrase "very body and blood".

The symbolism Jesus intended is blatantly obvious. The prohibition of LITERALLY partaking of blood is clear in both OT and NT.

Your point is obviously a feeble attempt to support an unsupportable theory.
So you admit that you don't even know the meaning of the word "IS" and yet you want to teach us all theology?
I know how Scripture, and Jesus use the word "is", and I am willing to teach you many things, including theology.
 
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Light of the East

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The Scriptures were written before 100AD. The early Church had the writings of the apostles. The canon is merely an opinion regarding which books were authentic.
I happen to believe God guided those deciding, in spite of their erroneous beliefs.

So God guided the bishops at the council regarding the canon of Scripture, but He didn't guide them in anything else with which you disbelieve, such as infant baptism, the priests in the Church, the position of Peter in leading the Church, or anything else with which you disagree.

Dude, honest. Take a deeeeeeep breath, step back, and look at what you are saying.
 
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Light of the East

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Does it cause you any discomfort to know that your own church disagrees?

Ahhhhhh...........no, you got that wrong.

Pope John Paul II said that hell is not so much a place as a state of being, which is what I just said.

Take it up with him.
 
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Dartman

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Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Jhn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Jhn 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
Jhn 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

You claim to believe the Bible, but you don't even believe this.
Matthew 13:34
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
 
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Dartman

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So God guided the bishops at the council regarding the canon of Scripture, but He didn't guide them in anything else with which you disbelieve, such as infant baptism, the priests in the Church, the position of Peter in leading the Church, or anything else with which you disagree.
God guides MANY worldly people in the Scriptures!

John 11:47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. 48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. 49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, 50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. 51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; 52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

So, did Caiaphas receive guidance in regard to SOME of his words, but not others? Didn't he intend to KILL Jesus?
 
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Light of the East

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Matthew 13:34
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Typical of cults, you take one verse of Scripture out of context of the chapter and use it to defend your beliefs.

Who is the "they" in this chapter? It is the multitude who were following Him. And He said why He was doing this.

Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

So your claim that Jesus spoke in parables all the time is just plain bogus. Not only that, but Jesus took the time to explain the parables to those who would be leading the Church. He did not speak to them in parables, and if He gave a parable, He explained it to the Apostles.

These are the same Apostles, who got the explanations of Jesus's words, who no doubt sat down with Him and He told them how the bread and wine would become His very Flesh and Blood. He must have in some way done this because this is what the Apostles taught the men they discipled, such as Polycarp, who in turn taught St. Iranaeus.

Bottom line is that you are fighting against 2,000 years of Church teaching and history with one verse taken out of context.
 
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Light of the East

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This might be considered a personal attack.... what do you think?

I would say it is.....I'll erase it, but your arrogance and unteachability is stunning.
 
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Albion

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Ahhhhhh...........no, you got that wrong.

Pope John Paul II said that hell is not so much a place as a state of being, which is what I just said..
All that means is that hell cannot be located geographically which, although I have heard of a few people who think it can be, is something that is considered by most Christians of whatever denomination to be so obvious as not to warrant a discussion.
 
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mkgal1

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>>>>>>>>>Would it surprise you to know that Universalism was present in the early church and that people like Origen and Clement gleaned it from the scriptures? Would it surprise you that Eternal Torment (ET) wasn't commonly accepted until around the year 500?
  1. Not a writer among those who describe the heresies of the first three hundred years intimates that Universalism was then a heresy, though it was believed by many, if not by a majority, and certainly by the greatest of the fathers.
  2. Not a single creed for five hundred years expresses any idea contrary to universal restoration, or in favor of endless punishment.
  3. With the exception of the arguments of Augustine (A.D. 420), there is not an argument known to have been framed against Universalism for at least four hundred years after Christ, by any of the ancient fathers.
  4. While the councils that assembled in various parts of Christendom, anathematized every kind of doctrine supposed to be heretical, no oecumenical council, for more than five hundred years, condemned Universalism, though it had been advocated in every century by the principal scholars and most revered saints.
  5. As late as A.D. 400, Jerome says "most people" (plerique). and Augustine "very many" (quam plurimi), believed in Universalism, notwithstanding that the tremendous influence of Augustine, and the mighty power of the semi-pagan secular arm were arrayed against it.
  6. The principal ancient Universalists were Christian born and reared, and were among the most scholarly and saintly of all the ancient saints.~The Beautiful Heresy- Christian Universalism: The Early Church
 
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Okay.......I'm outta here.

This conversation has gotten much to emotional on my end, and when it devolves into insults and name-calling, it is time for me to step back, take a deep breath, and go somewhere else.

I thought I had my ability to be nasty under control, but this thread is showing me different.

Y'all have a nice talk. I have books to read.
 
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