Are there 3 heavens?

Calminian · May 24, 2017

Brian Mcnamee said:
Hi the 3 heavens are the sky, the cosmos and Gods dwelling which is an altogether different dimension. ....

Unfortunately, there's nothing in Scripture to substantiate this. It's in a lot of textbooks, but it's just a manmade theory.

laurence99 · May 24, 2017

Solomons Porch said:
So does that make the first heaven here on earth and us as rulers over it, to subdue?

With god all things are possible

Dartman · May 24, 2017

Sanoy said:
It wasn't a vision because Paul included the possibility that the person arrived bodily.

"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows."

Paul's statement in verse 1 clarifies this WAS a vision, but within the context of the vision, Paul couldn't tell if he was really there, or not.

SpiritRehab · May 24, 2017

Solomons Porch said:
In the bible you hear of being caught up into the third heaven, which SUGGESTS that there must be a 1st and a 2nd heaven for a 3rd to exsist.

What are your thoughts and do you have scripture and reference to back up your opinion?

1st Heaven = Sky
2nd Heaven = Space
3rd Heaven = Kingdom of God

Genesis 1:6-8 \ God created the Heavens - God's Kingdom, Space & Sky
Genesis 1:14-19 \ God put the Sun, Moon & Stars in the Heaven - Space
Genesis 1:20-24 \ God created flying animals and they fly in the Heaven - Sky

Even though the order of mention is
1st - God's Kingdom
2nd - Space
3rd - Sky

Ancient Cultures make short lists with the most important last, thus:
1st Heaven - Sky
2nd Heaven - Space
3rd Heaven - Kingdom of God

Arthur B Via · May 24, 2017

Solomons Porch said:
In the bible you hear of being caught up into the third heaven, which SUGGESTS that there must be a 1st and a 2nd heaven for a 3rd to exsist. There's the third Heaven, where God resides, Heaven on earth with Jesus and , very very soon, and the Heaven

What are your thoughts and do you have scripture and reference to back up your opinion?

Arthur B Via · May 24, 2017

Solomons Porch said:
In the bible you hear of being caught up into the third heaven, which SUGGESTS that there must be a 1st and a 2nd heaven for a 3rd to exsist. There's the third Heaven where God resides, Heaven on earth with Jesus, very very soon, and the Heaven between here and the third Heaven. Hebrews 4:14

What are your thoughts and do you have scripture and reference to back up your opinion?

Calminian · May 24, 2017

SpiritRehab said:
1st Heaven = Sky
2nd Heaven = Space
3rd Heaven = Kingdom of God

Genesis 1:6-8 \ God created the Heavens - God's Kingdom, Space & Sky
Genesis 1:14-19 \ God put the Sun, Moon & Stars in the Heaven - Space
Genesis 1:20-24 \ God created flying animals and they fly in the Heaven - Sky

Even though the order of mention is
1st - God's Kingdom
2nd - Space
3rd - Sky...

There is nothing in Scripture to substantiate this. Your references do not associate a particular heavens with sky, space and kingdom.

And you may be right, the only basis it may have is from ancient mythologies.

Calminian · May 24, 2017

SPF said:
...(1) The aerial, including the clouds and the atmosphere, the heavens above us, until we come to the stars.

(2) The starry heavens, the heavens in which the sun, moon, and stars appear to be situated.

(3) The heavens beyond the stars. That heaven was supposed to be the residence of God, of angels, and of holy spirits. It was this upper heaven, the dwelling-place of God, to which Paul was taken, and whose wonders he was permitted to behold - this region where God dwelt; where Christ was seated at the right hand of the Father, and where the spirits of the just were assembled. The fanciful opinions of the Jews about seven heavens may be seen detailed in Schoettgen or in Wetstein, by whom the principal passages from the Jewish writings relating to the subject have been collected. As their opinions throw no light on this passage, it is unnecessary to detail them here.

I did enjoy Alcorn's book. That said, there is no biblical basis for what you've listed above. It's in a lot of textbooks, but none of them are inspired. There are no references in Scripture linking particular things in creation to particular heavens. the theory of sky, space and beyond is completely manmade.

ViaCrucis · May 24, 2017

SpiritRehab said:
3rd Heaven = Kingdom of God

God's kingdom isn't a location. Recall the archetypal prayer given by the Lord where we pray, "Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven".

The kingdom is the reality that God is king, made evident and manifest in and through the person of Jesus, "the kingdom of God is in your midst" (Luke 17:21).

-CryptoLutheran

Calminian · May 24, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
God's kingdom isn't a location. Recall the archetypal prayer given by the Lord where we pray, "Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven".

The kingdom is the reality that God is king, made evident and manifest in and through the person of Jesus, "the kingdom of God is in your midst" (Luke 17:21).

-CryptoLutheran

Everything in Scripture indicates Heaven is an actual location. And there is nothing in Scripture to indicate Heaven is spiritual and none physical. When you think about it, how could there be such a thing as a spiritual place? You can have spiritual persons, mind, will, etc., but places don't have those attributes. A spiritual place is a bit of an oxymoron.

ViaCrucis · May 24, 2017

Calminian said:
Everything in Scripture indicates Heaven is an actual location. And there is nothing in Scripture to indicate Heaven is spiritual and none physical. When you think about it, how could there be such a thing as a spiritual place? You can have spiritual persons, mind, will, etc., but places don't have those attributes. A spiritual place is an oxymoron.

I wasn't talking about "heaven", I was talking about the kingdom.

But since you bring it up, no, I don't believe there's a "place" called "heaven". One can't get into a rocket and zoom up and find oneself suddenly beholding the holy seraphim and cherubim gathered around a literal throne upon which God "physically" sits; such thinking, at best, leans toward the heresy of Audianism if not being fully Audian itself.

-CryptoLutheran

SPF · May 24, 2017

Calminian said:
There is nothing in Scripture to substantiate this. Your references do not associate a particular heavens with sky, space and kingdom.

And you may be right, the only basis it may have is from ancient mythologies.

What do you believe Paul was referencing then when he said he was caught up into "the third heaven" in II Corinthians 12:2?

ViaCrucis said:
But since you bring it up, no, I don't believe there's a "place" called "heaven"

Do you hold to soul sleep then? Where are the martyrs crying out for justice that are referenced in Revelation? When Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be in paradise with Him was he not referring to an actual place?

Aaron Rich · May 24, 2017

Given the original question, I would suggest looking into Hebrew literature on the question. There's a wealth of commentary. It will give you more to consider if nothing else. The fact is, the Bible is a completely 100% Hebrew manuscript regardless of the language it was given to us in. Paul was trained by the ivy league school of his day via Gamliel. He was Jewish to the core. Therefore, it makes the most sense to consider Jewish writings.

That said, if you refuse to consider Jewish writings you should at least consider the word. The word for heaven in Hebrew is Shamayim. The "im" at the end of the word is indicative of plurality in masculine form. You see this plurality indicated in several surprising words (in both feminine and masculine forms) that you don't necessarily consider when we look at English. It really makes you wonder what message God is trying to get across by giving us plural forms of these words.

Other examples are:
Elohim - God
Yerushalayim - Jerusalem
Chayim - Life

The fact is, "Christian" writings on the topic are useless as long as they continue using their "Greek thinking". With this all said, you must have the mental ability to consider other sources at a lesser level than the Scriptures. The Scriptures are the only source that are absolute. Too many people get their hands on a "Christian book" and then they begin to believe what that book says even though it contradicts the Scriptures - purposely or not. Hebrew writings strive to not do that, but there is still the instances on contradiction and a person MUST be able to distinguish between Scriptural or not. For any of you that are reading this that don't have that ability to stick writings in a mental "sand box", I strongly suggest you continue reading only the Bible.

Calminian · May 24, 2017

SPF said:
What do you believe Paul was referencing then when he said he was caught up into "the third heaven" in II Corinthians 12:2?...

I believe he was referring to the 3rd heaven. I'm not disputing the existence of 3 heavens, I'm merely calling into question the manmade "sky, space, beyond" interpretation you put forth. There's nothing in Scripture to verify this.

Sanoy · May 24, 2017

Dartman said:
Paul's statement in verse 1 clarifies this WAS a vision, but within the context of the vision, Paul couldn't tell if he was really there, or not.

I see what you mean by your question now. A good reminder for me not to look verse by verse.

A vision in the NT isn't a necessarily a mental event so I don't think "in the body" means from the body as in the mind. For example The word vision (Opstasia) has a secondary meaning of a "supernatural appearance". The Greeks also have a word for mind it's dianoia. So Paul could say "in the dianoia or not." if he wanted to refer to whether it was mental of spiritual.

You are right though that it could be a typical vision, but that word caught away or snatched up seems to imply a relocation rather than like a trance. It's the same word used for what happened to Philip when he was transported from place to place. I think Pauls uncertainty is over whether the spirit or the body was snatched away.

Calminian · May 24, 2017

Aaron Rich said:
Given the original question, I would suggest looking into Hebrew literature on the question. There's a wealth of commentary. It will give you more to consider if nothing else. The fact is, the Bible is a completely 100% Hebrew manuscript regardless of the language it was given to us in. Paul was trained by the ivy league school of his day via Gamliel. He was Jewish to the core. Therefore, it makes the most sense to consider Jewish writings.

That said, if you refuse to consider Jewish writings you should at least consider the word. The word for heaven in Hebrew is Shamayim. The "im" at the end of the word is indicative of plurality in masculine form. You see this plurality indicated in several surprising words (in both feminine and masculine forms) that you don't necessarily consider when we look at English. It really makes you wonder what message God is trying to get across by giving us plural forms of these words.

Other examples are:
Elohim - God
Yerushalayim - Jerusalem
Chayim - Life

The fact is, "Christian" writings on the topic are useless as long as they continue using their "Greek thinking". With this all said, you must have the mental ability to consider other sources at a lesser level than the Scriptures. The Scriptures are the only source that are absolute. Too many people get their hands on a "Christian book" and then they begin to believe what that book says even though it contradicts the Scriptures - purposely or not. Hebrew writings strive to not do that, but there is still the instances on contradiction and a person MUST be able to distinguish between Scriptural or not. For any of you that are reading this that don't have that ability to stick writings in a mental "sand box", I strongly suggest you continue reading only the Bible.

I would certainly agree with you original languages are important. That's why I study Hebrew. That said, there are Christian Hebrew scholars and there are Jewish Hebrew scholars. And both are capable of error.

I would also agree with your point about Hebrew thinking vs. Greek thinking. I would merely add that ancient Hebrew thinkers were fallible also.

And roots of words are interesting, but don't really tell us anything about this particular issue.

But the idea of ancient jewish writings being inerrant is simply ridiculous. They were fallible sinners just like us. Our real task is simple. What meaning were the original writers of Scripture conveying under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit?

SPF · May 24, 2017

Calminian said:
I believe he was referring to the 3rd heaven. I'm not disputing the existence of 3 heavens, I'm merely calling into question the manmade "sky, space, beyond" interpretation you put forth. There's nothing in Scripture to verify this.

So what is the 3rd heaven, and then what are the 1st and 2nd heavens?

SPF · May 24, 2017

Calminian said:
But the idea of ancient jewish writings being inerrant is simply ridiculous. They were fallible sinners just like us. Our real task is simple. What meaning were the original writers of Scripture conveying under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit?

Why is that ridiculous? Is it any more ridiculous than the idea that a virgin woman can become pregnant? If they truly were writing under the inspiration of the HS, why wouldn't the writings be inerrant?

Dartman · May 24, 2017

Sanoy said:
I see what you mean by your question now. A good reminder for me not to look verse by verse.

A vision in the NT isn't a necessarily a mental event so I don't think "in the body" means from the body as in the mind. For example The word vision (Opstasia) has a secondary meaning of a "supernatural appearance". The Greeks also have a word for mind it's dianoia. So Paul could say "in the dianoia or not." if he wanted to refer to whether it was mental of spiritual.

You are right though that it could be a typical vision, but that word caught away or snatched up seems to imply a relocation rather than like a trance. It's the same word used for what happened to Philip when he was transported from place to place.

My understanding of the text is, Paul couldn't tell if he was literally taken forward in time, to the 3rd heaven, or was merely experiencing the event in his spirit/mind.

Peter's explanation is very clear, there is;
1) the heaven and earth of old, (pre-flood), and
2) the current heaven and earth, and
3) the future "new heavens, and new earth" (Rev 21, Isa 65:17, Isa 66:22).

Dartman · May 24, 2017

SPF said:
Why is that ridiculous? Is it any more ridiculous than the idea that a virgin woman can become pregnant? If they truly were writing under the inspiration of the HS, why wouldn't the writings be inerrant?

The Scriptures were inspired by Jehovah/God. The traditions of the Jews were/are merely man's opinion.
Mark 7:8
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

Are there 3 heavens?

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