Lucifer in Isaiah 14 can't be anyone

FangirlingGOD · May 10, 2017

I'm new here and don't have much experience debating anything but the first thing that came to mind when I read this is Satan standing before God asking to test Job.

OldWiseGuy · May 11, 2017

he-man said:
Jude and 2 Peter was written before Revelations so your point is moot!

Revelation is the last word of Christ to us. John wrote what he saw concerning present and future events, not past events. The binding of Satan occurs in conjunction with the "Day of the Lord" at the end of this age, not before.

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"

3 "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand."

10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"

19 "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;"

he-man · May 11, 2017

OldWiseGuy said:
Revelation is the last word of Christ to us. John wrote what he saw concerning present and future events, not past events. The binding of Satan occurs in conjunction with the "Day of the Lord" at the end of this age, not before....hereafter;"

NOW answer the rest of my post Is God the God that says: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal
God created everything and there is no limit to His power. Deu 32:39　 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.　
Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the destroyer to destroy. Ezr 8:22 The hand of our God is upon all them for good that seek him; but his power and His wrath is against all them that forsake him.
If God did not control and issue orders for evil the there would be no purpose left in His plans.
1Ch 21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and He repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite.
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?
Job 27:22 For God shall cast upon him [Job], and not spare: he would fain flee out of his hand.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
Heb. 2:14 "that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil"
Then tell me why didn't the death of Christ accomplish the annihilation of the devil? If so, how? How could being killed by the devil kill the devil? And how if he killed the devil, can the devil in that case still be alive;
and how are we to understand the devil having the power of death in view of the fact that the power of death rests with God, and with God only, who inflicts it at His pleasure?
Deu 32:39　 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.　
Did God allow Jesus to be killed? Did the devil kill him or did the Chief Priests and Elders? When a man becomes enlightened in the truth, and is thus made aware of God's will in reference to the state of his mind and the nature of his actions in regard to the death of Christ. Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
"I am God, and there is none else" (Isa. 46:9).
"To whom will ye liken me, or shall I be equal; saith the Holy One. Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things" (Isa. 40:25, 26). But of a devil we have no such information of a creation!

he-man · May 11, 2017

FangirlingGOD said:
I'm new here and don't have much experience debating anything but the first thing that came to mind when I read this is Satan standing before God asking to test Job.

WELCOME, to the debate! Read the other posts! Then comment. A parable is a succinct, didactic story, in prose or verse, which illustrates one or more instructive lessons or principles.By the way this is for an example and a parable to show us how God works: Job 29:1 Moreover Job continued his parable, and said,
What about the calamities of tempest and disease that befel Job? Was it in the power of mortal man to control these ? The answer is, these were God's doings, and not the adversary's. "Thou movest ME against him to destroy him without cause " (2:3). This is the language in which God describes Satan's action in the matter. It was God who inflicted the calamities at the adversary's instigation. This is Job's view of the case: "Have pity upon me, O ye my friends", says he, "the hand of God hath touched me" (19:21). And the narrator, in concluding the book, says, "Then came there unto him all his brethren . . . and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him" (42:11).
How do I know this???
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Paul thus claims clearly God’s sovereign right (exousian, power, right, authority, from exesti) to use men (already sinners) for his own purpose.[RWP]
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

he-man · May 12, 2017

OldWiseGuy said:
1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:" 19 "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;"

Cat got your tongue?
Deu 32:39　 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.　
Ezr 8:22 The hand of our God is upon all them for good that seek him; but his power and His wrath is against all them that forsake him.
Ezekiel 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.　
Rom 9:21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Paul thus claims clearly God’s sovereign right (exousian, power, right, authority, from exesti) to use men (already sinners) for his own purpose.[RWP]
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
And as translated by John Wycliff's Bible: Jer 29:26 The Lord gave thee priest for Jehoiada, the priest, that thou be duke in the house of the Lord on each man that is travailed of the fiend, and prophesying, that thou send him into stocks, and into prison.
Mat 4:1 1 Then Jesus was led of a Spirit into desert, to be tempted of the fiend 5 Then the fiend took him into the holy city, and setted him on the pinnacle of the temple, 11 Then the fiend left him; and lo! angels came nigh, and served to him.
13: 39 the enemy that soweth them is the fiend; and the ripe corn is the ending of the world, the reapers be angels.
John 6:70 Therefore Jesus answered to them, Whether I chose not you twelve, and one of you is a fiend?
Mk 5:15 And they came to Jesus, and saw him that had been travailed of the fiend 16 And they that saw, how it was done to him that had a fiend, and of the swine.
Lk 7:33 For John Baptist came, neither eating bread, nor drinking wine, and ye say, He hath a fiend.

OldWiseGuy · May 12, 2017

he-man said:
Cat got your tongue?
Deu 32:39　 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.　
Ezekiel 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24　 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.　
Rom 9:21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Paul thus claims clearly God’s sovereign right (exousian, power, right, authority, from exesti) to use men (already sinners) for his own purpose.[RWP]
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
And as translated by John Wycliff's Bible: Jer 29:26 The Lord gave thee priest for Jehoiada, the priest, that thou be duke in the house of the Lord on each man that is travailed of the fiend, and prophesying, that thou send him into stocks, and into prison.
Mat 4:1 1 Then Jesus was led of a Spirit into desert, to be tempted of the fiend 5 Then the fiend took him into the holy city, and setted him on the pinnacle of the temple, 11 Then the fiend left him; and lo! angels came nigh, and served to him.
13: 39 the enemy that soweth them is the fiend; and the ripe corn is the ending of the world, the reapers be angels.
John 6:70 Therefore Jesus answered to them, Whether I chose not you twelve, and one of you is a fiend?
Mk 5:15 And they came to Jesus, and saw him that had been travailed of the fiend 16 And they that saw, how it was done to him that had a fiend, and of the swine.
Lk 7:33 For John Baptist came, neither eating bread, nor drinking wine, and ye say, He hath a fiend.

Was Jesus tempted from within, or without?

he-man · May 12, 2017

OldWiseGuy said:
Was Jesus tempted from within, or without?

"Then Jesus was led of the Spirit into desert" and that is the Angel of the Lord who tested him.
Deu 32:39　 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.　
Ezr 8:22 The hand of our God is upon all them for good that seek him; but his power and His wrath is against all them that forsake him.
Ezekiel 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.　
Rom 9:21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Paul thus claims clearly God’s sovereign right (exousian, power, right, authority, from exesti) to use men (already sinners) for his own purpose.[RWP]
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

OldWiseGuy · May 12, 2017

'

he-man said:
"Then Jesus was led of the Spirit into desert" and that is the Angel of the Lord who tested him.

I'm guessing it was the "god of this world" that tempted him, not the great archangel Michael. The only "angel" 'of' God that is a slanderer and false accuser is Lucifer/Satan.

Brian Mcnamee · May 12, 2017

he-man said:
Devil Theory

what John says leaves out any devil theory according to him it hadn't happened before the book was written! John says, 'things which must shortly come to pass and things which must be hereafter. '
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Jesus in vision pictured it as a flash of lightning. Thus should the fall of the corrupt Jewish state be, and thus was the fall of idolatry in the Gentile world. [CLARKE]
It was not a literal satan that fell, it was the figure of all superstitions about demons. The phrase “from heaven” is to be referred to the lightning, and does not mean that he saw “Satan” fall “from heaven,” but that the fall was as quick as lightning [falls] from heaven or from the clouds. Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. And Paul said in 2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
The case of tēi sarki can be either locative (in) or dative (for). What was it? Certainly it was some physical malady that persisted. All sorts of theories are held (malaria, eye-trouble, epilepsy, insomnia, migraine or sick-headache, etc.). Messenger of Satan (aggelos Satana). Angel of Satan, the affliction personified.[RWP]
What this thorn in the flesh might be has given birth to a multitude of conjectures: Tertullian thought it dolor auriculae, the ear ache; Chrysostom, κεφαλαλγια, the head ache; Cyprian, carnis et corporis multa ac gravia tormenta, many and grievous bodily torments. I believe the apostle to refer simply to the distresses he had endured through the opposition he met with at Corinth; which were as painful and grievous to him as a thorn in his flesh. The messenger of Satan - Another mode of expressing what he calls the thorn in the flesh; and he seems most plainly to refer to the false apostle at Corinth. [CLARKE]
Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.
While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible.
Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.
The word devil is derived from the Greek word diabolos ("to slander"), and the term devil can refer to a greater demon in the hierarchy of Hell. At the same time, the term devil is also derived from the same Indo-European root word for deva, which roughly translates as "angel." It is easy to see how modern religions mistakenly adapted the satan to mean "fallen angel".
The idea that there is a God in heaven above who fights against a god of the underworld, or hell, is not monotheism, however, it is the same duality found in other pagan faiths. Through His prophet Isaiah, God profoundly states, "I form light and create darkness, I make peace and CREATE evil; I am God, I do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).Consider this: If there were such an opponent and foe of God like a Satan, as Christianity claims, don't you think God is capable of eliminating His created angel with a mere breath - or thought (anthropomorphically speaking)? If God spoke him (Satan) into existence; God could simply quit speaking and Satan would simply cease to exist. (Abraham Joshua Heschel, The Prophets, Jewish Publication Society, 1962, Philip Birnbaum, Encyclopedia of Jewish Concepts, Hebrew Publishing Company, 1991, Aryeh Kaplan, Jewish Meditation, Schocken Books, 1985.).
Acts 17:16 While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols.
Tell my why you are not foolish if you say you think your devil is cast down from heaven when you consider what Job says in chapter 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.
Job says that all the evil which the LORD had brought upon him Job 42:11
The Satan doctrine is one of the most deceptive and corrupt doctrines to ever enter Christendom, and which has been embraced and promoted by false teachers for thousands of years in as much as from the hand of God the Creator of the universe, no opposing being could originally exist but through their own fault they fell (John 8, 44; 2 Pet. 2, 4; Jude 6);when Christ shall appear to overthrow the kingdom of [death] (1 Cor. 15, 26; Heb. 2, 14; 1 John 2, 8). SEE Winer, 2, 385
At an earlier stage of the language it might have been possible to establish different renderings, but now the English equivalents are so stereotyped that any change seems impossible. Thus the rendering of διαβολος and διαμονιον by the same word 'devil' is a grievous loss ; and it is much to be regretted that Wycliffe's translation of διαμονιον by ' fiend ' was not adopted by Tyndale, in which case it would probably have become the current rendering.
Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Hillel , son of the nm. morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
The name is a cognate of the Hebrew word Shachar (שחר) meaning dawn.
In mainstream Judaism there is no concept of a devil like in mainstream Christianity or Islam. In Hebrew, the biblical word ha-satan means "the adversary" or the obstacle, or even "the prosecutor" (recognizing that God is viewed as the ultimate Judge)
Much "Satanic" lore does not originate from actual Satanists, but from Christians. Best-known would be the medieval folklore and theology surrounding demons and witches.
There is no unambiguous reference to the Devil in the Torah, the Prophets, or the Writings. Carus P. History of the Devil and the Idea of Evil
David Joris (c. 1501–1556, Against this is his rationalist approach to the topic of the devil and supernatural evil. David Joris anticipated the views of Thomas Hobbes, John Epps and Dr. John Thomas in interpreting the devil as an allegory.
Later than Muggleton, but earlier than Bekker, Newton came to the same conclusion as both of them – that the devil in Scripture was never the supernatural evil being of ‘orthodox’ theology, and that all temptation comes from the lust of the heart: The “Devil”, then, is a symbol of lust and an vivid hypostatization of idolatry in aggregate. This language cannot be reconciled with the orthodox position.’Stephen Snobelen, ‘Lust, Pride, And Ambition: Isaac Newton And The Devil’, pages 7, 8,9,10,11,12 November 2002

Your analysis is interesting and well educated but completely bogus
The person of Lucifer or Satan the devil is in scripture a quite literal being who appears throughout the history of man. He is not Gods equal and the struggle between good and evil is one that is in the context of providing living beings both angels and man with a choice of whom they would serve. God is not a reactionary and the fall of the angles as well as man and the cross was known before the creation and onset of time.

Col 1 gives the purpose of the creation. 5 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

When Jesus was tempted by Satan he was shown all the kingdoms of the world at a time and offered them to Jesus if he would bow to him. In Rev 11 we see the proclamation. “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”. The fall of Lucifer in Isaiah is the literal fall of Lucifer and as he offered the kingdoms to Jesus in the 7 year tribulation a man will take the offer and that would be the Antichrist. Satan is bound for 1000 years at the 2nd coming and not judged until after he is loosed to tempt the nations one more time. He is then cast into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet already are. These are not systems but individuals.

The book of Job begins with the sons of God presenting themselves before the Lord and Satan was among them. The term sons of God comes up in Genesis regarding taking wives for themselves and creating a race of giants both before and after the flood. Jude speaks of this, And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;. Satan desired to sift Peter like wheat. You see Satan after his fall still presents himself to the LORD and has access to heaven. In Revelation he is kicked out for good and knows his time is short.

The, “I will” statements in Isaiah are still in play as the prophetic destiny for the world will play out exactly as the prophets have said. Jesus told the Jews that he came in His Fathers name and was rejected but if another will come him you will accept. The Lord was betrayed by Judas whom Satan had possessed. The Antichrist will be possessed by Satan as well. Satan is not another God and only operates in the space given him. Isaiah 14 speaks of his demise as well and says, “Those who see you will gaze at you and consider you saying, “ is this the man who made the earth tremble and shook kingdoms?” AS a created being Lucifer was high ranking and amazing but compared to God he is nothing. He is not a metaphor and your view is dismissing the word of God as true and authoritative. Your higher textural criticism is hijacking the text from an obvious historical personage of Lucifer and diluting the texts. Revelation warns not to ad or take away from the book and it says the dragon Satan is going to be judged and cast into the lake of fir. The great white throne is anyone not written in the Lambs book of life will be cast into the same perdition. This is why we must be saved and the scene john saw in heaven when the Jesus appearing as a lamb that had been slain was found worthy to take the scrolls and loosen the seals then the whole of heaven bows down and worships Him. The preeminence over all powers and principalities is the destiny and like a author controls the plot of the story the whole of creation has this fitting end until there is a new heaven and a new earth with a new Jerusalem coming down. The permanent purge of evil is accomplished. The eternity to come will make these events we are passing through in this age to be but a blip. You should try reading the text and believing God and the devil are real and there is a specific destiny.

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he-man · May 12, 2017

OldWiseGuy said:
'I'm guessing it was the "god of this world" that tempted him, not the great archangel Michael. The only "angel" 'of' God that is a slanderer and false accuser is Lucifer/Satan.

Sorry, but we do not guess when it comes to salvation! Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the destroyer to destroy.
1Ch 21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and He repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite.
Not a word there or here about a fallen angel: G1140 δαίμονα δαίμονας fiend, troublemaker, demon, mischievous person, cruel, wicked, and inhuman person compare [G4567 σατανα σατανάς accuser, cruel wicked and inhuman person, adversary, opponent & G1228 διάβολος διαβολης διαβαλλων διαβολέας 'slanderer' 'accuser', diabolical (adj.) Slanderous, hurtful, or corrupting. One who slanders, hurts, and corrupts (casting or sowing throughout)] 2Co 4:4 In whom the GOD of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Isaiah 6:9: Go and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. MAKE the HEART of this PEOPLE FAT, and MAKE their EARS HEAVY, and SHUT their EYES; LEST they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and particularly Romans 11:8-10: GOD HATH GIVEN THEM THE SPIRIT of SLUMBER, EYES that they SHOULD not SEE, and EARS that they SHOULD not HEAR; let their EYES be DARKENED, in the same circumstances of willful rebellion and obstinate unbelief; and the great God of heaven and earth is he who judicially blinds their eyes; makes their hearts fat, i.e. stupid; gives them the spirit of slumber: and bows down their back. On these very grounds it is exceedingly likely that the apostle means the true God by the words the God of this world; that by the God of this world the Supreme Being is meant, who in his judgment gave over the minds of the unbelieving Jews to spiritual darkness, so that destruction came upon them to the uttermost
of THIS WORLD, means simply mankind at large in their state of probation in this lower world, in opposition to their state in the world to come. The same meaning the word has in several other places, to which l need not refer; it simply implying the present state of things, governed by the Divine providence, in contradistinction from the eternal state: and it is very remarkable that, in 1 Timothy 1:17, God himself is called τω δε βασιλει των αιωνων, the King of the WORLD; what we call King eternal; and here it evidently means him who governs both worlds, and rules in time and eternity.
Some, and particularly the ancient fathers, have connected and have read the verse: But GOD hath blinded the minds of the unbelievers of this world, Theophylact, and Augustine, all plead for the above meaning; and St. Augustine says that it was the opinion of almost all the ancients
Lest the light of the glorious Gospel - They have resisted the grace which God gave them, and have refused to yield to the evidences which amply prove the Messiahship of Jesus; and therefore their eyes were judicially darkened, as it is said in the prophet: He hath closed their eyes, and hath given them the spirit of slumber. That is, they have shut their eyes against the light, and their blindness and stupor are the consequence. http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=2co&chapter=004
Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Psa 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. Hos 1:9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
Deu 32:39　 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.　
Ezr 8:22 The hand of our God is upon all them for good that seek him; but his power and His wrath is against all them that forsake him.
Ezekiel 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.　
Rom 9:21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Paul thus claims clearly God’s sovereign right (exousian, power, right, authority, from exesti) to use men (already sinners) for his own purpose.[RWP]
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
John Wycliff's Bible: Jer 29:26 The Lord gave thee priest for Jehoiada, the priest, that thou be duke in the house of the Lord on each man that is travailed of the fiend, and prophesying, that thou send him into stocks, and into prison.
Mat 4:1 1 Then Jesus was led of a Spirit into desert, to be tested of the fiend 5 Then the fiend took him into the holy city, and setted him on the pinnacle of the temple, 11 Then the fiend left him; and lo! angels came nigh, and served to him.
13: 39 the enemy that soweth them is the fiend; and the ripe corn is the ending of the world, the reapers be angels.
John 6:70 Therefore Jesus answered to them, Whether I chose not you twelve, and one of you is a fiend?
Mk 5:15 And they came to Jesus, and saw him that had been travailed of the fiend 16 And they that saw, how it was done to him that had a fiend, and of the swine.
Lk 7:33 For John Baptist came, neither eating bread, nor drinking wine, and ye say, He hath a fiend.

OldWiseGuy · May 12, 2017

he-man said:
On these very grounds it is exceedingly likely that the apostle means the true God by the words the God of this world; that by the God of this world the Supreme Being is meant,

So God is working at cross purposes with Jesus, blinding those he is trying to save?

2 Corinthians 4:

3 "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world (age) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

Jesus stated that his kingdom was not of this time/age.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

he-man · May 13, 2017

OldWiseGuy said:
So God is working at cross purposes with Jesus, blinding those he is trying to save?.

Huh? GOD who in his judgment gave over the minds of the unbelieving Jews to spiritual darkness, so that destruction came upon them to the uttermost.
Some, and particularly the ancient fathers, have connected and have read the verse: 2Co 4:4 But GOD hath blinded the minds of the unbelievers of this world, Theophylact, and Augustine, all plead for the above meaning; and St. Augustine says that it was the opinion of almost all the ancients
Lest the light of the glorious Gospel - They have resisted the grace which God gave them, and have refused to yield to the evidences which amply prove the Messiahship of Jesus; and therefore their eyes were judicially darkened, as it is said in the prophet: He hath closed their eyes, and hath given them the spirit of slumber. That is, they have shut their eyes against the light, and their blindness and stupor are the consequence. Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. [CLARKE]
Psa 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. Hos 1:9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.

OldWiseGuy said:
2 Corinthians 4: 3 "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world (age) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.".

2Co 4:3 But if our Gospel be hid - Κεκαλυμμενον· Veiled; he refers to the subject that he had treated so particularly in the conclusion of the preceding chapter. If there be a veil on the Gospel, it is only to the wilfully blind; and if any man’s heart be veiled that hears this Gospel, it is a proof that he is among the destroyed, απολλυμενοι, those who are fully under the power of sin; who have given up themselves to work wickedness; [CLARKE] G622 ἀπόλλυμι apollumi From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. (2) For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. (3) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

OldWiseGuy said:
Jesus stated that his kingdom was not of this time/age. John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Huh? Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. So, Listen: Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God and this world has not yet become Jesus's world but shall in the near future. What of THIS WORLD, means is simply mankind at large in their state of probation in this lower world, in opposition to their state in the world to come. The same meaning the word has in several other places, to which l need not refer; it is simply implying the present state of things, governed by the Divine providence, in contradistinction from the eternal state: and it is very remarkable that, in 1 Timothy 1:17, God himself is called τω δε βασιλει των αιωνων, the King of the WORLD; what we call King eternal; and here it evidently means Him who governs both worlds, and rules in time and eternity.
Hist. Eccles. lib. iii. c. 20, that "The relatives of our Lord were brought before Domitian, and interrogated whether they were of the family of David; and what sort the kingdom of Christ was, and where it would appear? They answered, that this kingdom was neither of this world, nor of an earthly nature; that it was altogether heavenly and angelical; and that it would not take place till the end of the world." [CLARKE]

OldWiseGuy · May 13, 2017

he-man said:
Huh? GOD who in his judgment gave over the minds of the unbelieving Jews to spiritual darkness, so that destruction came upon them to the uttermost.
Some, and particularly the ancient fathers, have connected and have read the verse: 2Co 4:4 But GOD hath blinded the minds of the unbelievers of this world, Theophylact, and Augustine, all plead for the above meaning; and St. Augustine says that it was the opinion of almost all the ancients
Lest the light of the glorious Gospel - They have resisted the grace which God gave them, and have refused to yield to the evidences which amply prove the Messiahship of Jesus; and therefore their eyes were judicially darkened, as it is said in the prophet: He hath closed their eyes, and hath given them the spirit of slumber. That is, they have shut their eyes against the light, and their blindness and stupor are the consequence. Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. [CLARKE]
Psa 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. Hos 1:9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
2Co 4:3 But if our Gospel be hid - Κεκαλυμμενον· Veiled; he refers to the subject that he had treated so particularly in the conclusion of the preceding chapter. If there be a veil on the Gospel, it is only to the wilfully blind; and if any man’s heart be veiled that hears this Gospel, it is a proof that he is among the destroyed, απολλυμενοι, those who are fully under the power of sin; who have given up themselves to work wickedness; [CLARKE] G622 ἀπόλλυμι apollumi From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. (2) For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. (3) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Huh? Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. So, Listen: Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God and this world has not yet become Jesus's world but shall in the near future. What of THIS WORLD, means is simply mankind at large in their state of probation in this lower world, in opposition to their state in the world to come. The same meaning the word has in several other places, to which l need not refer; it is simply implying the present state of things, governed by the Divine providence, in contradistinction from the eternal state: and it is very remarkable that, in 1 Timothy 1:17, God himself is called τω δε βασιλει των αιωνων, the King of the WORLD; what we call King eternal; and here it evidently means Him who governs both worlds, and rules in time and eternity.
Hist. Eccles. lib. iii. c. 20, that "The relatives of our Lord were brought before Domitian, and interrogated whether they were of the family of David; and what sort the kingdom of Christ was, and where it would appear? They answered, that this kingdom was neither of this world, nor of an earthly nature; that it was altogether heavenly and angelical; and that it would not take place till the end of the world." [CLARKE]

Your presentation is indeed convincing, but I'm not quite convinced.

There's that small "g" in "god of this world". Perhaps because the word for "world" means "age" in this verse. If God is God of all time/eternity why the small "g" and why is this "god" restricted to this "age"? Doesn't it mean that God has given mankind over to a "reprobate mind" (the mind of Satan) during this age? Isn't Satan the real god of this age?

he-man · May 13, 2017

OldWiseGuy said:
Your presentation is indeed convincing, but I'm not quite convinced.There's that small "g" in "god of this world". Perhaps because the word for "world" means "age" in this verse. If God is God of all time/eternity why the small "g" and why is this "god" restricted to this "age"? Doesn't it mean that God has given mankind over to a "reprobate mind" (the mind of Satan) during this age? Isn't Satan the real god of this age?

Sorry but no small g here it is from the manuscripts of Codex Alexandrinus, Codex Sinaiticus, Beza: εν οιϲ ο θϲ του αιω
Are you not aware that the Bible was written in Majuscule?

See the Line over the θC

OldWiseGuy · May 13, 2017

he-man said:
Sorry but no small g here it is from the manuscripts of Codex Alexandrinus, Codex Sinaiticus, Beza: εν οιϲ ο θϲ του αιω
Are you not aware that the Bible was written in Majuscule?
View attachment 196623 See the Line over the θC

At this point the conclusion is sufficiently uncertain as to warrant 'leave sleeping dogs lie' in this regard. God bless.

he-man · May 13, 2017

OldWiseGuy said:
At this point the conclusion is sufficiently uncertain as to warrant 'leave sleeping dogs lie' in this regard. God bless.

An etymologist studies the origins of words, how their meaning changes and develops over time and how they fall into disuse, etc.
Satan (n.) In biblical sources the Hebrew term the satan describes an adversarial role. It is not the name of a particular character. Although Hebrew storytellers as early as the sixth century B.C.E. occasionally introduced a supernatural character whom they called the satan, what they meant was any one of the angels sent by God for the specific purpose of blocking or obstructing human activity. [Elaine Pagels, "The Origin of Satan," 1995] Greek Satanas, from Hebrew satan "adversary, one who plots against another," from satan "to show enmity to, oppose, plot against," from root s-t-n "one who opposes, obstructs, or acts as an adversary." In Septuagint (Greek) usually translated as diabolos "slanderer," literally "one who throws (something) across" the path of another
It would have been better if the translators had followed the WYCLIFF BIBLE:
fiend (n.) Look up fiend at Dictionary.com Old English feond "enemy, foe, adversary," originally present participle of feogan "to hate," from Proto-Germanic *fijand- "hating, hostile" (source also of Old Frisian fiand "enemy," Old Saxon fiond, Middle Dutch viant, Dutch vijand "enemy," Old Norse fjandi, Old High German fiant, Gothic fijands), from suffixed form of PIE root *pe(i)- "to hurt" (source also of Sanskrit pijati "reviles, scorns," Greek pema "suffering, misery, woe," Gothic faian "to blame," and possibly Latin pati "to suffer, endure"). According to Watkins, not allied to foe and feud (n.).
Lucifer Belief that it was the proper name of Satan began with its use in Bible to translate Greek Phosphoros even though it is literally a reference to the King of Babylon (see Isaiah xiv.4). Sometimes rendered daystar in later translations.
phosphorus (n.) Look up phosphorus at Dictionary.com"substance or organism that shines of itself," 1640s, from Latin phosphorus "light-bringing," also "the morning star" (a sense attested in English from 1620), from Greek Phosphoros "morning star," literally "torchbearer," from phos "light," contraction of phaos "light, daylight" (related to phainein "to show, to bring to light," from PIE root *bha- (1) "to "to shine") + phoros "bearer," from pherein "to carry," from PIE root *bher- (1) "to carry," also "to bear children."
But if you are a Nationalist it might have done better to let sleeping dogs lie and not let the truth get in the way of a good story.
My advice for you is If you can't run with the big dogs, you'd better stay on the porch
From the Archives of The Advocate
Sorry but no small g here it is from the manuscripts of Codex Alexandrinus, Codex Sinaiticus, Beza: εν οιϲ ο θϲ του αιω
Are you not aware that the Bible was written in Majuscule?

See the Line over the θC

OldWiseGuy · May 13, 2017

he-man said:
An etymologist studies the origins of words, how their meaning changes and develops over time and how they fall into disuse, etc.
Satan (n.) In biblical sources the Hebrew term the satan describes an adversarial role. It is not the name of a particular character. Although Hebrew storytellers as early as the sixth century B.C.E. occasionally introduced a supernatural character whom they called the satan, what they meant was any one of the angels sent by God for the specific purpose of blocking or obstructing human activity. [Elaine Pagels, "The Origin of Satan," 1995] Greek Satanas, from Hebrew satan "adversary, one who plots against another," from satan "to show enmity to, oppose, plot against," from root s-t-n "one who opposes, obstructs, or acts as an adversary." In Septuagint (Greek) usually translated as diabolos "slanderer," literally "one who throws (something) across" the path of another
It would have been better if the translators had followed the WYCLIFF BIBLE:
fiend (n.) Look up fiend at Dictionary.com Old English feond "enemy, foe, adversary," originally present participle of feogan "to hate," from Proto-Germanic *fijand- "hating, hostile" (source also of Old Frisian fiand "enemy," Old Saxon fiond, Middle Dutch viant, Dutch vijand "enemy," Old Norse fjandi, Old High German fiant, Gothic fijands), from suffixed form of PIE root *pe(i)- "to hurt" (source also of Sanskrit pijati "reviles, scorns," Greek pema "suffering, misery, woe," Gothic faian "to blame," and possibly Latin pati "to suffer, endure"). According to Watkins, not allied to foe and feud (n.).
Lucifer Belief that it was the proper name of Satan began with its use in Bible to translate Greek Phosphoros even though it is literally a reference to the King of Babylon (see Isaiah xiv.4). Sometimes rendered daystar in later translations.
phosphorus (n.) Look up phosphorus at Dictionary.com"substance or organism that shines of itself," 1640s, from Latin phosphorus "light-bringing," also "the morning star" (a sense attested in English from 1620), from Greek Phosphoros "morning star," literally "torchbearer," from phos "light," contraction of phaos "light, daylight" (related to phainein "to show, to bring to light," from PIE root *bha- (1) "to "to shine") + phoros "bearer," from pherein "to carry," from PIE root *bher- (1) "to carry," also "to bear children."
But if you are a Nationalist it might have done better to let sleeping dogs lie and not let the truth get in the way of a good story.
My advice for you is If you can't run with the big dogs, you'd better stay on the porch
From the Archives of The Advocate
Sorry but no small g here it is from the manuscripts of Codex Alexandrinus, Codex Sinaiticus, Beza: εν οιϲ ο θϲ του αιω
Are you not aware that the Bible was written in Majuscule?

See the Line over the θC

So it is your belief that the Lord God is the "god" of this present evil age?

Galatians 1:4
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world (age), according to the will of God and our Father:

You may be confusing the two Greek words for "world". One is the world in general, it's people, institutions, etc. The other, the one I'm citing, means the age, or the course the world (society) is taking. I don't think God is the God of the evil course that society is taking.

The use of this term is never used in a positive light in the NT. Jesus and the writers constantly bemoan the evil implicit in this "age".

OldWiseGuy · May 13, 2017

he-man said:
My advice for you is If you can't run with the big dogs, you'd better stay on the porch

I'm a lone wolf. I don't run with anyone.

he-man · May 14, 2017

OldWiseGuy said:
So it is your belief that the Lord God is the "god" of this present evil age? Galatians 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world (age), according to the will of God and our Father:

Sorry but just being a Lone Wolf doesn't cut it. You must adhere to the principles of the Spirit and LISTEN to what the Bible says to you!
Ps 47:2 For the LORD most high is terrible; He is a great King over all the earth.
1Ch 29:11 Thine, O LORD, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all.
Dan 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.
Deu 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD He is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else. 10:14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD'S thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is. that the Lord He is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath; that he has made both, and is the possessor and Lord of them, and does what he pleases with them; that the one is his throne, his dwelling place, and the other his footstool; and that the inhabitants of both are his creatures, and under his authority and command, and he can dispose of them as he pleases: [GILL]
Jos 2:11 And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.
1Sa 2:8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them.
1Sa 2:9 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.
1Sa 2:10 The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them: the LORD shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed.

OldWiseGuy said:
You may be confusing the two Greek words for "world". One is the world in general, it's people, institutions, etc. The other, the one I'm citing, means the age, or the course the world (society) is taking. I don't think God is the God of the evil course that society is taking. The use of this term is never used in a positive light in the NT. Jesus and the writers constantly bemoan the evil implicit in this "age".

G2889 κόσμος kosmos Probably from the base of G2865; orderly arrangement, that is, decoration; by implication the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively [morally]): - adorning, world.Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the G2889 world: again, I leave the G2889 world, and go to the Father.
165 αιώνα αιον age
166 αιωνιος αιωνιου sempiternal, having beginning, but no end, age long, forever
Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil G165 age, according to the will of God and our Father: world. G166 αἰώνιος from G165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; perpetual, eternal, for ever, everlasting, .G
3611 inhabitable world; G3611 Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
3625 οικουμενην οἰκέω ὁ ἀγαθὸς δαίμων inhabited Roman world ὁ ἀγαθὸς δαίμων, inhabited region, whole earthly dominion [00311]
οικουμενῃ; Οικουμενη Feminine participle present passive of G3611 (as noun, by implication of G1093); land, that is, the (terrene part of the) globe; specifically the Roman empire: - earth, world.; signifies properly the inhabited part of the earth, from οικεω, to dwell, or inhabit. Ἡ γη, which signifies the earth, or world in general, is frequently restrained to this sense, being often used by the evangelists and others for all the country of Judea. See Luk 4:25; Jos 2:3. See Josephus, Ant. book xx. c. 3.

OldWiseGuy · May 14, 2017

he-man said:
Sorry but just being a Lone Wolf doesn't cut it. You must adhere to the principles of the Spirit and LISTEN to what the Bible says to you!

I do. You just don't agree with what the Spirit is revealing to me. So you are in disagreement with the Spirit.

he-man said:
Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil G165 age.............

So you do agree with me on this.

Lucifer in Isaiah 14 can't be anyone

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Wake me when it's soup.

he-man

he-man

he-man

Wake me when it's soup.

he-man

Wake me when it's soup.

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he-man

Wake me when it's soup.

he-man

Wake me when it's soup.

he-man

Wake me when it's soup.

he-man

Wake me when it's soup.

Wake me when it's soup.

he-man

Wake me when it's soup.

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