LDS The Mormon Jesus
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We LDS partake of the Lord's supper in remembrance of Him every week
. It is a great thing.
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MJFlores
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and eggsWe have the Lord Supper annually. To us we value this because it is the time we renew our covenant with Christ, to be judged by my Lord Jesus. That is why others are expelled or just left the Church because Christ has already passed judgement.We LDS partake of the Lord's supper in remembrance of Him every week
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SusanD.
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I thought this discussion was entitled 'the Mormon Jesus' and it has morphed into debates on the word easter and bunnies etc...
Can we bring it back to the discussion on whether the Mormon jesus is really the Jesus of the Holy Bible? I say NO.
"apostles of the Mormon Church and current official LDS publications affirm it. As explained in Ensign,
"On first hearing, the doctrine that Lucifer and our Lord, Jesus Christ, are brothers may seem surprising to some—especially to those unacquainted with latter-day revelations. But both the scriptures and the prophets affirm that Jesus Christ and Lucifer are indeed offspring of our Heavenly Father and, therefore, spirit brothers….But as the Firstborn of the Father, Jesus was Lucifer’s older brother. (See Col. 1:15; D&C 93:21.)"
Further, according to the official LDS teacher’s manual, Gospel Principles,
"We needed a Saviour to pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. Our Father said, “Whom shall I send?” (Abraham 3:27). Two of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said, “Here am I, send me” (Abraham 3:27)….Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor” (Moses 4:1)."
Source: http://www.equip.org/article/is-jesus-christ-the-spirit-brother-of-satan/
Absolutely NOWHERE in the Holy Bible can we find such a teaching.....
Christ Jesus is not some lower spiritual being on equal footing with satan/Lucifer:- Jesus Christ is the eternal Creator God (John 1; Col. 1; Heb. 1; Rev. 1).
So, LDS people, you got the wrong Jesus and need to be able to OBJECTIVELY search this out on your own, using only the Holy Bible, NOT with the LDS interpretations.
Peace to you.
Can we bring it back to the discussion on whether the Mormon jesus is really the Jesus of the Holy Bible? I say NO.
"apostles of the Mormon Church and current official LDS publications affirm it. As explained in Ensign,
"On first hearing, the doctrine that Lucifer and our Lord, Jesus Christ, are brothers may seem surprising to some—especially to those unacquainted with latter-day revelations. But both the scriptures and the prophets affirm that Jesus Christ and Lucifer are indeed offspring of our Heavenly Father and, therefore, spirit brothers….But as the Firstborn of the Father, Jesus was Lucifer’s older brother. (See Col. 1:15; D&C 93:21.)"
Further, according to the official LDS teacher’s manual, Gospel Principles,
"We needed a Saviour to pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. Our Father said, “Whom shall I send?” (Abraham 3:27). Two of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said, “Here am I, send me” (Abraham 3:27)….Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor” (Moses 4:1)."
Source: http://www.equip.org/article/is-jesus-christ-the-spirit-brother-of-satan/
Absolutely NOWHERE in the Holy Bible can we find such a teaching.....
Christ Jesus is not some lower spiritual being on equal footing with satan/Lucifer:- Jesus Christ is the eternal Creator God (John 1; Col. 1; Heb. 1; Rev. 1).
So, LDS people, you got the wrong Jesus and need to be able to OBJECTIVELY search this out on your own, using only the Holy Bible, NOT with the LDS interpretations.
Peace to you.
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Summing this up: the Father is the Father to all-- there is no other. This is entirely Biblical. This is about the supremacy of the Father.
LDS canon is not limited to just the Bible. Rather we believe that God is living and continues to speak to His children and give more guidance/scripture.
LDS in *NO* way believe that Lucifer is remotely the person Jesus Christ is.
This LDS do believe enthusiastically.
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SusanD.
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Hi.
I am aware that LDS religion has other teachings as it's authority, diminishing the authority of Holy Bible... herein lies the problem. Any religion that claims to be Christian but does not keep the Holy Bible as it's sole written authority is bound to have errors. Yes, God is living and continues to speak to His born-again children in Christ Jesus and gives us guidance through the indwelling Holy Spirit, not by someone coming along hundreds of years later with different claims... (such as Joseph Smith).
This is not a denial of the LDS claim that Lucifer is the brother of Jesus. Anyway, as I said earlier, the Mormon Jesus is NOT the Jesus revealed in the Holy Bible.
Peace to you.
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The fact that God lives and continues to speak in NO way diminishes Him or the Bible.
Do you have a verse that claims this?
There is no denial in the supremacy of the Father being the Father of all: me, you, Mother Teresa, Hitler, Christ, Lucifer. This does not mean that any of these individuals are the same, and in no way minimizes the unfailing righteness and goodness of Christ whom alone was/is the Son of God.
Who do you believe Lucifer's Father was? (Obviously Lucifer has now abandoned any righteousness or goodness).
Edit: I apologize for the unkind tone in my voice earlier. I now realize I was letting my bad mood from this morning other stuff this morning carry over. My bad, and I apologize.
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Ignatius the Kiwi
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It's okay, God isn't going to condemned us for celebrating his creation.
Is it okay? Really?
You, Lord, have abandoned your people, the descendants of Jacob. They are full of superstitions from the East; they practice divination like the Philistines and embrace pagan customs. Isaiah 2:6
The Lord God abandoned Israel because they embraced pagan customs. And you think the Lord God will not abandon people with pagan customs? What did Jesus say about these traditions like Easter and Christmas?
And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! Mark 7:9
View attachment 194766
That is how people can see if a religion is from God or otherwise.
Well archaeologist and religious scholars in the US and EU said that Easter came from pagan origins. Of course, Astarte, Ashtaroth, Ishtar, Eastre were idol goddesses of their time but its worship continues in Easter celebration and repackaged as a Christian celebration.
View attachment 194767
Can you explain to me why Easter is only called Easter in England and Oster in Germany and everywhere else in between those two countries and Babylon it is called some variant of Pascha or Resurrection day? The problem with your hypothesis is that it ignores what Easter actually is, a development of the Jewish Pascha which turned it's focus away from the original Exodos or Paschal Sacrifice but to Christ's own sacrifice. Read the most ancient excerpts we have by Ireneaus, Melito, Eusebius and etc and tell me they were talking about a Pagan festival? If so, what Pagans ever celebrated their day on the following Sunday of the 14th of Nisan like to Quatrodecimans did? Or what Pagans ever celebrated on the Sunday following the first full moon of the Spring Equinox? What are you primary sources to demonstrate that Christians stole it from pagans rather than it being adopted from Judaism as it clearly was?
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You have permission and the right to start a thread about Easter.
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SusanD.
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Hi.
Without wanting to give any 'respect' to this fallen angel Lucifer, I will say this:-
1. Scripture indicates he was an angel of beauty:-
Ezekiel 28:13-25 "You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, til iniquity was found in you."(emphasis added)
Let's be clear that satan is a fallen angel, in comparison to the Lord Jesus Christ who is the very Word of God made flesh, not an angel and not the 'brother' of a fallen angel.
2. This fallen angel Lucifer, now known as satan/the devil (the accuser/adversary) was cast out from God's presence, whereas the Lord Jesus is at the right hand of God the Father:
Revelation 12:7-9 "and war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,
but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.
So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
See Hebrews 1, please try to look objectively, without any LDS commentaries/interpretations, to see the DIFFERENCE in NATURE/ESSENCE between Jesus and angels.
3. The Lord Jesus gives His followers authority over the power of the fallen angel satan:-
Luke 10:17-19 "Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name; and He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you."
I will leave it there for now...
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God is not the Father of Satan or Satan's children.
Matthew 12
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
John 8
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Matthew 12
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
John 8
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
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Peter1000
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I appreciate that we don't want to give light to satan. We do not either.
But, it is imparative that we know who he was at one time in order to have a discussion and full knowledge of how he fits into the scheme of our Heavenly Father.
From the scriptures you have quoted, we know that at one time he was a dazzling, powerful, next to God and Jesus spirit. Whether you call him a cherub, an angel, a spirit, lucifer, it doesn't matter. He was powerful and had a place next to God himself and was once an impressive righteous, perfect person.
We know this because even when he turned against God and Jesus, he was still able to persuade 1/3 of the stars in heaven (other angels) to follow him, and they were so committed to him that he was able to cause a war in heaven. Michael, the archangel had on his side 2/3 of the stars of heaven (other angels) and was able to defeat lucifer and his angels only by the blood of the Lamb (who is Jesus Christ himself).
Lucifer and his angels were forced out of heaven and were thrown down to the earth, to tempt and bother man. lucifer's name was changed to satan, and he was present in Eden to tempt our first parents and helped create the fall of man. So from the beginning, he was doing his best to thwart the plans of God and Jesus.
In lucifer's best moments though, many Christian commentators believe that lucifer was second only to Jesus next to God the Father.
Isaiah says that lucifer was a 'son of the morning', which means that he was one of the first to be created by God the Father.
Now that we know about lucifer/satan, lets turn our attention the Jesus.
We know that Jesus was the firstborn of the spirit children of God.
See Colossians 1:15
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.
(So we see from this scripture that Jesus was the firstborn of all the creatures of God)
Also see Revelations 3:14
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.
(Again, we can see that Jesus was the beginning or first of the creations of God)
We know there were many spirit sons of God in heaven from these scriptures:
Job 38:7
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
Job 2:1
Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord.
(So the idea that God had 1 son is not correct. But what is correct is that of all the spirit children of God or sons of God, (angels - of which Jesus was one of them) only one of them was the only-begotten son of God, and that was Jesus. Jesus has the distinction of being the firstborn of the spirit angels/sons of God of God, and he also has the distinction to be the only-begotten son of God in the flesh.
So when the scriptures say in:
Hebrews 1:4
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
(Jesus was made (notice made) better than the angels because he inherited his Fathers genes and his Fathers name, with was more a more excellent name than for instance, my father's genes and name.
Notice also in Hebrews 2:9
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
(We notice this scripture because it says Jesus was made (notice made) a little lower than the angels.....)
So in these 2 Hebrews scriptures we have Jesus made far better than angels, and Jesus made a little lower than the angels. I hope that is not too confusing.
In either scripture though the word 'made' is used. So the idea that Jesus was the firstborn (made) spirit son of God, should not be difficult to understand, and it does not derail his divinity, because he has existed forever and ever, just like the Father.
Was Jesus an angel? Many Christian commentators say yes. Many websites say yes, Jesus was an angel, because he was a messenger for the most High God the Father. He was the chief angel. Many scriptures attest to this, In fact being the perfect son and one who hated iniquity and loved righteousness, he became the voice for the Father, and gained the title, the Word of God.
Could Jesus and lucifer be brothers. Of course they could. Jesus was the firstborn of the sons of God. lucifer was a son of the morning, so he was born shortly after, maybe even the second son of God.
Both Jesus and lucifer had to be made/created by the same God, God the Father.
Both Jesus and lucifer are referred to as the morning star.
Isaiah refers to lucifer as the morning star in Isaiah 14:12(ESV) and Jesus is referred to the morning star by himself in Revelation 22:16 (ESV). Therefore many Chistian commentators have suggested that they were both superior individuals at one time.
Lucifer finally chose to go against God, and we know what happened to him. Jesus was always loyal to God. Because of his loyalty and his sinlessness, God the Father brought Jesus to sit by His side. God did not do that for any other of his sons of God (angels), but only Jesus. God the Father called Jesus God and gave him a throne, and a sceptor of righteousness. Jesus's God even annointed his head with the oil of gladness above Jesus's fellow sons of God.
See Hebrews 1:8-9
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
(who are Jesus's fellows?)
There is a lot of study that goes into this subject. It is not easy to pull out all the scriptures that refer to the pre-mortal existence. But they are certainly there. Hope you take the time to read what I have written. Let me know what you think.
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BigDaddy4
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Lucifer is a fallen angel. Angels were created by God through Jesus Christ. Nowhere in Scripture do angels refer to God as "Father". And, by the very fact that Jesus created the angels cannot mean that Lucifer and Jesus are brothers.
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Peter1000
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Just a couple of things.
I understand that the word 'angel' is simply a spirit that is also a messenger of God. To my knowledge, an angel is no different than all the spirit creations of God the Father. As you know from the scriptures Jesus was also designated an angel as he also was a messenger for the Father.
Let me tell you why Mormons believe that Jesus did not create lucifer/satan.
It starts in Genesis 1. Mormons believe that God the Father (Elohim) made, formed/created all things spiritually in Genesis 1. That included both Jesus and lucifer and you and I, and any other living beings. All were in the form of spirit.
Read 2 Kings 6:14-17 to get a glimpse of this world of spirits:
14 Therefore sent he thither horses, and chariots, and a great host: and they came by night, and compassed the city about.
15 And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do?
16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.
17 And Elisha prayed, and said, Lord, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
Then God the Father (Elohim) rested from all His labors.
After this, then Jesus, who is also known as Lord God (Yahweh Elohim) started his material creation in Genesis 2. He created the material earth and heavens, and then formed Adam out of the dust of the ground, and breathed into him the 'breath of life' and he became a living soul.
We believe that the 'breath of life' is = to the spirit that God the Father had formed in Genesis 1. So the Lord God (different than Elohim) took the spirit and breathed (or put) it into Adams flesh body and he became a living soul.
Jesus then went on to form the material plants and animals and all that there was to be on the earth, or above the earth or beneath the earth.
Therefore, to us, God the Father (Elohim) made/formed/created the sprits of Jesus and lucifer and you and I. Jesus, the Lord God (Yahweh Elohim) did not create lucifer's spirit. Even in his perfect and beautiful and powerful status, lucifer chose the wrong path and turned against God.
Jesus, OTOH, was loyal to God and besides that, he was also perfect and beautiful and powerful and sinless. As God the Father said, Jeus loved righteousness and hated iniquity, and therefore God the Father rewarded Jesus by having him come and sit down on His right side. No other spirit angel was so rewarded for their works of righteousness. Only Jesus. He became the ONLY son of God to be begotten in the flesh and have the inheritance and name that set him apart from all other spirits.
There is a lot more I could say, but this is why we believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers, and that Jesus did not create lucifer/satan's spirit.
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