LDS The Mormon Jesus

BigDaddy4

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Just a couple of things.

I understand that the word 'angel' is simply a spirit that is also a messenger of God. To my knowledge, an angel is no different than all the spirit creations of God the Father. As you know from the scriptures Jesus was also designated an angel as he also was a messenger for the Father.

Let me tell you why Mormons believe that Jesus did not create lucifer/satan.
It starts in Genesis 1. Mormons believe that God the Father (Elohim) made, formed/created all things spiritually in Genesis 1. That included both Jesus and lucifer and you and I, and any other living beings. All were in the form of spirit.
Read 2 Kings 6:14-17 to get a glimpse of this world of spirits:
14 Therefore sent he thither horses, and chariots, and a great host: and they came by night, and compassed the city about.
15 And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do?
16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.
17 And Elisha prayed, and said, Lord, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

Then God the Father (Elohim) rested from all His labors.

After this, then Jesus, who is also known as Lord God (Yahweh Elohim) started his material creation in Genesis 2. He created the material earth and heavens, and then formed Adam out of the dust of the ground, and breathed into him the 'breath of life' and he became a living soul.

We believe that the 'breath of life' is = to the spirit that God the Father had formed in Genesis 1. So the Lord God (different than Elohim) took the spirit and breathed (or put) it into Adams flesh body and he became a living soul.

Jesus then went on to form the material plants and animals and all that there was to be on the earth, or above the earth or beneath the earth.

Therefore, to us, God the Father (Elohim) made/formed/created the sprits of Jesus and lucifer and you and I. Jesus, the Lord God (Yahweh Elohim) did not create lucifer's spirit. Even in his perfect and beautiful and powerful status, lucifer chose the wrong path and turned against God.

Jesus, OTOH, was loyal to God and besides that, he was also perfect and beautiful and powerful and sinless. As God the Father said, Jeus loved righteousness and hated iniquity, and therefore God the Father rewarded Jesus by having him come and sit down on His right side. No other spirit angel was so rewarded for their works of righteousness. Only Jesus. He became the ONLY son of God to be begotten in the flesh and have the inheritance and name that set him apart from all other spirits.

There is a lot more I could say, but this is why we believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers, and that Jesus did not create lucifer/satan's spirit.

And you would be incorrect, Biblically speaking. "All things created..." means all things. (Gen. 1:1, John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, etc. etc.)
 
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SusanD.

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God is not the Father of Satan or Satan's children.

Matthew 12
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

John 8
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Both Jesus and lucifer had to be made/created by the same God, God the Father.

This is false doctrine too (this is where LDS is similar to Jehovah's Witnesses)
In a letter to the church at Colossae, the Apostle Paul gave an intriguing description of Jesus. In it, he explained Christ's relationship to God the Father and to creation. Some have claimed that Paul’s description of Christ as the first-born of creation means that Jesus was created -- not eternal, not God. Such a doctrine, however, conflicts with the rest of the Bible. Christ could not be both Creator and created; John 1 clearly names Him Creator. Let’s take a careful look at the passage where Jesus is called the first-born.

Colossians 1:15-21
“And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; so that He Himself might come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.”

Jesus is God
Christ’s relationship to His Father begins with the phrase "the image of the invisible God." The word “image,” meaning copy or likeness, expresses Christ's deity. This word involves more than a resemblance, more than a representation. He is God! Although He took on human form, He has the exact nature of His Father (Hebrews 1:3).

The "Word" of John 1:1 is a divine Person, not a philosophical abstraction. In the incarnation, the invisible God became visible in Christ; deity was clothed with humanity (Matthew 17:2). God is in Christ: visible, audible, approachable, knowable, and available. All that God is, Christ is.

(What does it mean that Jesus is the 'first-born' over Creation?)

May God grant you understanding and true peace.
 
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Jane_Doe

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This is false doctrine too (this is where LDS is similar to Jehovah's Witnesses)
In a letter to the church at Colossae, the Apostle Paul gave an intriguing description of Jesus. In it, he explained Christ's relationship to God the Father and to creation. Some have claimed that Paul’s description of Christ as the first-born of creation means that Jesus was created -- not eternal, not God. Such a doctrine, however, conflicts with the rest of the Bible. Christ could not be both Creator and created; John 1 clearly names Him Creator. Let’s take a careful look at the passage where Jesus is called the first-born.

Colossians 1:15-21
“And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; so that He Himself might come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.”

Jesus is God
Christ’s relationship to His Father begins with the phrase "the image of the invisible God." The word “image,” meaning copy or likeness, expresses Christ's deity. This word involves more than a resemblance, more than a representation. He is God! Although He took on human form, He has the exact nature of His Father (Hebrews 1:3).

The "Word" of John 1:1 is a divine Person, not a philosophical abstraction. In the incarnation, the invisible God became visible in Christ; deity was clothed with humanity (Matthew 17:2). God is in Christ: visible, audible, approachable, knowable, and available. All that God is, Christ is.

(What does it mean that Jesus is the 'first-born' over Creation?)

May God grant you understanding and true peace.
Clarifying LDS beliefs here:
LDS do believe that Jesus Christ is eternal and there is never a time He did not exist
That He is ONE with the Father
Etc.
 
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BigDaddy4

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Clarifying LDS beliefs here:
LDS do believe that Jesus Christ is eternal and there is never a time He did not exist
That He is ONE with the Father
Etc.
Which is deceptively not true and is not in agreement with this:

Let me tell you why Mormons believe that Jesus did not create lucifer/satan.
It starts in Genesis 1. Mormons believe that God the Father (Elohim) made, formed/created all things spiritually in Genesis 1. That included both Jesus and lucifer and you and I, and any other living beings. All were in the form of spirit.

Peter1000 claims Mormons believe something else. Are you sure you are in alignment with the beliefs of the church that you claim the spirit led you to? One or both of you cannot be right.

In addition, it is deceptive for you to claim that Jesus is "ONE with the Father". You mean a separate being who is one in purpose, etc., NOT one in essence as many Christian posters have tried to explain to you. You conveniently leave that part out to sound more Christian like.

The harder you cling to Mormon theology, the farther away from the Truth you seek you will be.
 
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NYCGuy

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Clarifying LDS beliefs here:
LDS do believe that Jesus Christ is eternal and there is never a time He did not exist
That He is ONE with the Father
Etc.

Adding further clarity:

Mormons believe Jesus is eternal and there was never a time He did not exist because they believe we are all eternal and there never was a time when we did not exist. We all have a core, uncreated intelligence that is eternal.

Mormons also believe that we are all literal spirit children of Heavenly Father and His spouse, Heavenly Mother, and that Jesus was the literal firstborn spirit son of our heavenly parents.
 
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SusanD.

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Adding further clarity:

Mormons believe Jesus is eternal and there was never a time He did not exist because they believe we are all eternal and there never was a time when we did not exist. We all have a core, uncreated intelligence that is eternal.

Mormons also believe that we are all literal spirit children of Heavenly Father and His spouse, Heavenly Mother, and that Jesus was the literal firstborn spirit son of our heavenly parents.
Hi.
This just clarifies even further that the 'Mormon Jesus' is a false Christ.
Matthew 24:24 - the true Lord Jesus even taught that there would be false christs and false prophets...
 
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Jane_Doe

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Hi.
This just clarifies even further that the 'Mormon Jesus' is a false Christ.
How do you figure?
Is Christ's majesty somehow dependent on other people being trash?
Note: the term "literal" here doesn't mean literal in involving a birth canal (how we think of a literal birth). Rather it is pointing out that Father is the Son's Father.
 
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SusanD.

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How do you figure?
Is Christ's majesty somehow dependent on other people being trash?
Note: the term "literal" here doesn't mean literal in involving a birth canal (how we think of a literal birth). Rather it is pointing out that Father is the Son's Father.
Hi.
Christ's majesty somehow dependent on other people's trash? How did you infer that from my previous statement?:nomouth:
I follow the Holy Bible. When we follow that as our only written authority from God we can walk in truth. If we follow add-ons, such as 'doctrines and covenants', 'pearl of great price', etc which teaches a different gospel and therefore a different Jesus to the One in the Holy Bible, this leads people into great deception.
You are following a religion that is based on "another gospel". This can be easily tested if you are willing to seek to know the truth and not rely on the feeling/burning in your bosom you may have felt when you were being introduced to LDS religion. I say this not with any sarcasm or mockery intended but with the hope that you would one day see that the Jesus of Mormonism/LDS is a different Jesus than the true One that has ALREADY been revealed...
Some simple questions for you to pray and ask the true Creator God about:-
1. Does the Holy Bible teach that Jesus was the brother of Lucifer? Where?
2. Does the Holy Bible teach that God was once man who became God and that we all can become gods? Where?
3. Can you reconcile LDS teachings about multiple gods etc in light of what the one true God said to Isaiah the prophet:-

Isaiah 44:24
"I am the LORD, and no other;
There is no God besides Me.
I will gird you, though you have not known Me,
That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting
That there is none besides Me.
I am the LORD, and no other"

Isaiah 44:24
"Thus said the LORD, your redeemer, and He that formed you from the womb, I am the LORD that makes all things; that stretches forth the heavens alone; that spreads abroad the earth by Myself..."

Please be willing to consider LDS teachings as objectively as you can. Your eternal life is at stake.

Peace be with you.
 
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withwonderingawe

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I follow the Holy Bible. When we follow that as our only written authority from God we can walk in truth. If we follow add-ons, such as 'doctrines and covenants', 'pearl of great price', etc which teaches a different gospel and therefore a different Jesus to the One in the Holy Bible,

And what do you call the Christian creeds which call God incomprehensible?

"And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not" John 1

You have to understand we feel you teach a different doctrine than what is in the Bible, you teach of a Jesus which is incomprehensible, you have lost your way and follow the false prophets Paul, Peter and John warned about.

We are the promised 'restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began' Act 3

SusanD. Some simple questions for you to pray and ask the true Creator God about:-
1. Does the Holy Bible teach that Jesus was the brother of Lucifer? Where?

Sure it does;

The Lord asked Job
"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

I asked myself who are the morning stars? I found that Jesus is referred to as the bright and morning star, Rev 22:16 and then in Isa 14 the name Lucifer in the Hebrew also means morning star, son of dawn.

So we have here two beings, Jesus and Lucifer sharing the same name or title of 'morning star' and sing together at the foundation of the earth along with the rest of the sons of God. Adam must have been there, because Luke tells is that he too is a son of God.

2. Does the Holy Bible teach that God was once man who became God

We've been having a very long discussion on this issue and I hate to repeat myself over and over again. It's not really that God was once a man but that God is a man.

Joseph Smith said; “God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did” then he uses John 5 to explain that Jesus was following what he had seen his Father do before him."

"Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: ....For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will....For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;..."

So Jesus only does what he saw his Father before him do.

The pattern goes like this; Yahweh was the firstborn of the spirit, He was ordained God with the oil of Gladness by his God and Father before he came to this earth. He then died and was resurrected to ascend unto heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father.

We ponder on the idea that God the Father went though the same process on another earth somewhere in the eternities. He was a God who became a mortal man, he died on a cross as Jesus did and rose from the grave as Jesus did and sat down at the right hand of his Father and God.

3, and that we all can become gods? Where?

It's his opening statement of purpose;

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..."

and in the closing
Rev 21and 22
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.....He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.......And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever."

The name in the forehead is very significant. When the High Priest would enter the Holy of Holies he would wear the name of Yahweh on his forehead and his robe was made out of the same fabric as the veil which represents the body of Christ. Symbolically the High Priest became Yahweh/Jesus.

So we have here in Revelation the idea being express that we each will have the name of God on our foreheads thus become God. I could give a number of other passages if you would like.

You will find this article The Great High Priest, by Margaret Barker very interesting. She explains how the temple worship points to the coming of Christ and how that was all lost with Josiah as they began to focaus on the letter of the law rather than the spirit of it. Yes it's printed at BYU but Barker is a Methodist lay minster in England and writes about Temple Theology http://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4087&context=byusq

4,Can you reconcile LDS teachings about multiple gods etc in light of what the one true God said to Isaiah the prophet:-

Yes. It's long and I'm tired, I'm sure some where back there I made an explanation. Seems like Phoebe had a whole thread dedicated to it
 
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Rescued One

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It should be pointed out that even though Mormons have made their god into a created being like the rest of us, they also find him incomprehensible.

Like the vastness of God’s creations, incomprehensible to the finite mind, His suffering is equally incomprehensible, as His Atonement is also infinite.

“The Condescension of God” - Ensign Dec. 2001 - ensign
 
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SusanD.

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And what do you call the Christian creeds which call God incomprehensible?

"And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not" John 1

You have to understand we feel you teach a different doctrine than what is in the Bible, you teach of a Jesus which is incomprehensible, you have lost your way and follow the false prophets Paul, Peter and John warned about.
We are the promised 'restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began' Act 3
Hi.
It is unfortunate that there is this reinterpreting of God's Word the Bible to fit into LDS theology - this is what LDS leaders/teachers have to do in order for what the Holy Bible says to fit in with their doctrines. A careful look at the Bible verse you quoted from in John 1 is not saying that God is 'incomprehensible' but it is saying that the darkness cannot comprehend... however, the original Greek word translated 'comprehend' also means 'overcome', so it is also more clearly translated as "... the darkness did not overcome it". Your claim that "Christian creeds call God incomprehensible" does not make sense here. Who said that Jesus is 'incomprehensible'?
When we pick individual Bible verses we need to consider the context. My Jesus is not incomprehensible - He has indeed been revealed and that is why we can enter into a real relationship with Him. John 1:14 "and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory...". I believe in the same Jesus whom the apostle John walked with and talked with, nothing incomprehensible there. It is the Jesus of LDS doctrine that is incomprehensible, from a religion that came about over 1,000 years after the church of Jesus Christ had already been established (19th century through Joseph Smith to be more exact).

The claim that the LDS church is to restore/restitute all things is based on a false premise. The false premise is that the early Church all went into apostasy, the true gospel was somehow lost etc, but this cannot be backed up by what God's word the Bible says. Apostle Paul had been shown by the Spirit of God that some would fall away, but not all. It says in 1 Timothy 4 that SOME will depart from the faith, so your religion's founder Joseph Smith got it wrong on that score (and other points which I can't go into now). Should we trust a religion that came about so late in history after the church had been established and the canon of Sripturthat claims to correct the Christian faith?
What false prophets are you claiming I follow? I follow the Holy Bible, and so do those I have worship with. It is Joseph Smith who is the false prophet but I understand you are not ready to consider this.

Perhaps you will consider this story of a former LDS and what she discovered:-Unveiling Grace: The Story of How We Found Our Way out of the Mormon Church: Lynn K. Wilder: 0025986331122: Amazon.com: Books
 
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Jane_Doe

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Your claim that "Christian creeds call God incomprehensible" does not make sense here. Who said that Jesus is 'incomprehensible'?
The Creeds which mainstream Christianity takes doctrine, and you must accept in order to be considered "Christian" on this forum.

LDS do not accept these non-scriptural creeds, hence we get branded as "non-Christian" and "cultist".

How about you?
The claim that the LDS church is to restore/restitute all things is based on a false premise. The false premise is that the early Church all went into apostasy, the true gospel was somehow lost etc
Yes, by introduction of the non-scriptural creedal doctrine, such as the idea that God is incompressible, or the idea that God changes and stops giving scripture. These ideas are no where in the Bible.
 
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NYCGuy

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The Creeds which mainstream Christianity takes doctrine, and you must accept in order to be considered "Christian" on this forum.

LDS do not accept these non-scriptural creeds, hence we get branded as "non-Christian" and "cultist".

How about you?

Yes, by introduction of the non-scriptural creedal doctrine, such as the idea that God is incompressible, or the idea that God changes and stops giving scripture. These ideas are no where in the Bible.

Of course, the idea that everything must be in the Bible is found...nowhere in the Bible.
 
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BigDaddy4

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The Creeds which mainstream Christianity takes doctrine, and you must accept in order to be considered "Christian" on this forum.

LDS do not accept these non-scriptural creeds, hence we get branded as "non-Christian" and "cultist".

How about you?

Yes, by introduction of the non-scriptural creedal doctrine, such as the idea that God is incompressible, or the idea that God changes and stops giving scripture. These ideas are no where in the Bible.
The lds are branded "non-Christian" and "cultist" by their beliefs, doctrines, and practices by all of mainstream and/or orthodox Christians.

Again, your continued lack of understanding of the Nicene Creed as used by this website is the issue. The Nicene Creed is based on the word of God and all of its statements can be found in and/or supported by Scripture.

I don't know what "incompressible" means, but God has said He does not change, so I don't know why you have a beef with that.

Whether or not God stops giving scripture or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is that if something new is presented as scripture, the Bible does have tests for that. Tests for false prophets, tests for a different gospel than what has been presented, and a call to search the scriptures (as the Bereans did in Acts) for alignment with the truth. Whether you like it or not, your prophet and founder of the lds church failed those tests. He introduced a different gospel, made God a liar that He couldn't keep His word, and proclaimed the big lie of some "Great Apostasy" in order to validate his new gospel.
 
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dzheremi

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The Creeds which mainstream Christianity takes doctrine, and you must accept in order to be considered "Christian" on this forum.

What Christian creed claims that God is incomprehensible? That's not found in the Nicene Creed, which is the Creed used as the statement of faith on this website, and in Christianity more generally.

We believe in ONE God, the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-Begotten, Begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of Light; True God of True God; Begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father by whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from Heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. And was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried. And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. And ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father. And He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; whose Kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father; Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; Who spoke through the prophets.

In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.

AMEN.


+++

That is the Nicene Creed as it is presented at this website as the website's statement of faith, meaning that if you want to be considered a Christian here, you must adhere to it in your posting. Mormons do not, and hence are not considered Christians here. Presumably there are LDS forums on which nobody is expected to profess the Nicene Creed (understandably so, as your religion rejects it) and yet they are still considered Christians by whichever measure LDS make that decision. But this is not an LDS website.

At any rate, you will not find "incomprehensible" nor that concept anywhere in the above.

I'd appreciate it if you'd stop lying about Christianity just because you disagree with it.
 
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withwonderingawe

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Your claim that "Christian creeds call God incomprehensible" does not make sense here. Who said that Jesus is 'incomprehensible'?

Strongs;To lay hold of the mind; to understand, perceive, learn, comprehend

The Athanasian Creed
.....The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
.......As also there are not three incomprehensibles,...... one Incomprehensible.

Years and year ago I was studying with a Christian lady who was witnessing to me. I read through some of the creeds, the apostles creed I could sign my name to but by the time the Athanasian creed was developed it had gone so far off from true Bible teachings I just can not accept it. As I was reading this Creed the Holy Spirit brought into my mind John 1

" And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."

Jesus is the light and men have so confused who or even what he is they stand in darkness not able to comprehend.

"These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:.....And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17

The false premise is that the early Church all went into apostasy, the true gospel was somehow lost etc,

Act 20 Paul speaking to the leadership of the Church
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

That is exactly what happened, especially with these councils they argued drawing away disciples after them and the flock was not spared. I could give you a long list of passages if you would like all prophesying of the falling away. It happened even as the Apostles were being put to death.
 
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