LDS The Mormon Jesus

[Rescued One]

Truth changes in Mormonism. And when it doesn't change, Mormon apologists come up with different ways to hide it or to say that even though something was taught as doctrine, it was actually speculation. An example would be the Adam-God doctrine with is now called the Adam-God theory.

In Mormonism there is eternal matter that God did not create. Creation ex-nihilio is considered a false teaching. "Let us make man in our own image." Mormonism teaches: man is made of eternal matter, God is made of eternal matter, Jesus is made of eternal matter. Everything is made of eternal matter.

Doctrine and Covenants 131
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

Eternal matter had no beginning and will have no end. Man had no beginning and will have no end.

Was man actually created? Men, angels, and gods had no beginning and will have no end.

D&C 132
19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.
20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

Gods are from everlasting to everlasting.

Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Paul, in his great speech on Mars’ hill, speaking of God, said: “… in him we live, and move, and have our being; … for we are … his offspring.” (Acts 17:28.)

Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery declared “that he lives!

“For we saw him, … and we heard the voice bearing record …

“That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.” (D&C 76:22–24.)

“Begotten sons and daughters unto God.” Can this be true in light of the fact that we all know that we are begotten sons and daughters of our earthly fathers? Yes, it is true because human souls are dual beings—spirits tabernacled in bodies of flesh and bone. The revelation says, “… the spirit and the body are the soul of man.” (D&C 88:15.) God is the father of man’s spirit, even as his earthly father is the father of his mortal body...

"The truth is, my beloved brethren and sisters, man is a child of God—a God in embryo."
Marion G. Romney, Man—A Child of God, Ensign, July 1973

This first temporal creation of all things, as we shall see, was paradisiacal in nature. In the primeval and Edenic day all forms of life lived in a higher and different state than now prevails. The coming fall would take them downward and forward and onward. Death and procreation had yet to enter the world. That death would be Adam’s gift to man, and, then, the gift of God would be eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Thus, existence came from God;* death came by Adam; and immortality and eternal life come through Christ. And thus, in Lehi’s precise and eloquent language, all men are in “a state of probation” because of the Fall. And “if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden.” He was then in a state of physical immortality; meaning he would have lived forever because there was as yet no death. “And they [our first parents] would have had no children”; they would have been denied the experiences of a mortal probation and a mortal death; and it is out of these two things—out of death and the tests of mortality—that eternal life comes. But—thanks be to God—“Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy. And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall.” (2 Ne. 2:21–26.)
Christ and the Creation - Ensign June 1982 - ensign

* Didn't we exist eternally?

 

[KevinSim]

Eternal matter had no beginning and will have no end. Man had no beginning and will have no end.

Was man actually created? Men, angels, and gods had no beginning and will have no end.

...

* Didn't we exist eternally?

The alternative to us humans existing eternally is that God created us out of nothing, that God took us from not existing to existing. And if you have that, the next logical step is that God can take us from existing to not existing. There are just too many problems with that point of view to take it really seriously.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Truth changes in Mormonism. And when it doesn't change, Mormon apologists come up with different ways to hide it or to say that even though something was taught as doctrine, it was actually speculation. An example would be the Adam-God doctrine with is now called the Adam-God theory.

In Mormonism there is eternal matter that God did not create. Creation ex-nihilio is considered a false teaching. "Let us make man in our own image." Mormonism teaches: man is made of eternal matter, God is made of eternal matter, Jesus is made of eternal matter. Everything is made of eternal matter.

Doctrine and Covenants 131
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

Eternal matter had no beginning and will have no end. Man had no beginning and will have no end.

Was man actually created? Men, angels, and gods had no beginning and will have no end.

D&C 132
19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.
20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

Gods are from everlasting to everlasting.

Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Paul, in his great speech on Mars’ hill, speaking of God, said: “… in him we live, and move, and have our being; … for we are … his offspring.” (Acts 17:28.)

Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery declared “that he lives!

“For we saw him, … and we heard the voice bearing record …

“That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.” (D&C 76:22–24.)

“Begotten sons and daughters unto God.” Can this be true in light of the fact that we all know that we are begotten sons and daughters of our earthly fathers? Yes, it is true because human souls are dual beings—spirits tabernacled in bodies of flesh and bone. The revelation says, “… the spirit and the body are the soul of man.” (D&C 88:15.) God is the father of man’s spirit, even as his earthly father is the father of his mortal body...

"The truth is, my beloved brethren and sisters, man is a child of God—a God in embryo."
Marion G. Romney, Man—A Child of God, Ensign, July 1973

This first temporal creation of all things, as we shall see, was paradisiacal in nature. In the primeval and Edenic day all forms of life lived in a higher and different state than now prevails. The coming fall would take them downward and forward and onward. Death and procreation had yet to enter the world. That death would be Adam’s gift to man, and, then, the gift of God would be eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Thus, existence came from God;* death came by Adam; and immortality and eternal life come through Christ. And thus, in Lehi’s precise and eloquent language, all men are in “a state of probation” because of the Fall. And “if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden.” He was then in a state of physical immortality; meaning he would have lived forever because there was as yet no death. “And they [our first parents] would have had no children”; they would have been denied the experiences of a mortal probation and a mortal death; and it is out of these two things—out of death and the tests of mortality—that eternal life comes. But—thanks be to God—“Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy. And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall.” (2 Ne. 2:21–26.)
Christ and the Creation - Ensign June 1982 - ensign

* Didn't we exist eternally?

I think you are going to have to explain what you are thinking before we can straiten out what your point is.

 

[withwonderingawe]

The title here is the Mormon Jesus so I'll add this passage from 3 Nephi 11 as He appears to His other sheep.

8 And it came to pass, as they understood they cast their eyes up again towards heaven; and behold, they saw Man descending out of heaven; and he was clothed in a white robe; and he came down and stood in the midst of them; and the eyes of the whole multitude were turned upon him, and they durst not open their mouths, even one to another, and wist not what it meant, for they thought it was an angel that had appeared unto them.

9 And it came to pass that he stretched forth his hand andspake unto the people, saying:

10 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world.

11 And behold, I am the light and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me, and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning.

12 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words the whole multitude fell to the earth; for they remembered that it had been prophesied among them that Christ should show himself unto them after his ascension into heaven.

13 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto themsaying:

14 Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.

 

[Rescued One]

Is the Mormon Jesus a created being?

 

[withwonderingawe]

Is the Mormon Jesus a created being?

Not in the sense of 'something from nothing'.

Thus, existence came from God;* death came by Adam; and immortality and eternal life come through Christ.....

D&C 88
11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;
12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—
13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

D&C 93
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

So the light which is in you and gives you life is not created as in something from nothing.

 

[NYCGuy]

The major point of disconnect between the Mormon idea of Jesus and the orthodox Christian one is that Mormons believe that Jesus is the literal first born spirit son of Heavenly Father and His spouse, Heavenly Mother.

 

[Rescued One]

Not in the sense of 'something from nothing'.



D&C 88
11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;
12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—
13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

D&C 93
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

So the light which is in you and gives you life is not created as in something from nothing.

So Jesus is created and has a light within Him which gives Him life?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

This is a simple problem, first God created all mater in Genesis 1:1, later He used that mater to form or put together all things. Since the Son of God created all things, He is not a created being himself. Col 1:15-18
We know that the Son of God holds all things together.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was unformed and void, darkness was on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God hovered over the surface of the water. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

Genesis 2:7Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

7 Then Adonai, God, formed a person from the dust of the ground and breathed



"But these may well represent the earliest and most basic. Genesis 1 and 2 are certainly highly evolved and later than some on the list. So here, in very condensed form, and in no highly-worked out order, are 20 starters:

(1) Proverbs 8 The birth of Wisdom and her co-creative role

(2) Psalm 33 The Creative Word

(3) Psalm 104 Dynamic Creation – fruitfulness at the boundaries

(4) Jeremiah 10 True (the world) and false (idols) creation

(5) Jeremiah 4 An ‘anti-creation’ story: rolling it all back when humans disobey

(6) Isaiah 28 Creation and the husbandry of agriculture

(7) Isaiah 40 Numbering the structures of the cosmos

(8) Isaiah 45 Creation is the backdrop to history

(9) Isaiah 11 The hope of a New Creation

(10) Hosea 2 A New Covenant with Creation

(11) Genesis 1 The Cosmos is God’s real Temple

(12) Genesis 2 Creation as ordering and forming

(13) Psalm 89 Creation is God’s dominion

(14) Psalm 8 Humankind’s glory in creation

(15) Psalm 19 Creation re-echoes God’s creative Word

(16) Psalm 102v25 Foundations of the earth and heavens

(17) Job 26 Spreading out the skies and suspending the earth

(18) Job 28 Wisdom is the perception and measure of creation with God

(19) Job 38 Measuring out the foundations of the earth and heavens

(20) John 1 Logos as the creative form

(21) Revelation 21 The New Creation

OK there was an extra one, but I also left out several others. You need to find the relevant verses in most cases!"

The 20 (+) Creation Stories in the Bible

 

[withwonderingawe]

So Jesus is created and has a light within Him which gives Him life?

No it says; Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

The Intelligence is the part of your being that makes you you, it is your personality, your will and your gender.

"Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose." Proclamation on Family

I think it helps to understand the word perfect, we always say God is perfect meaning there is no wrong in him but that isn't the actual meaning.

This is from Strongs, it says the Greek word is teleioō and it means;
to be finished,
complete,
add what is yet wanting in order to render a thing full,
to bring to the end (goal) proposed,
to bring to a close or fulfilment by event

So is what Mormonism teaches Biblical?

John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God. ..... In him was life; and the life was the light of men.....Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God/El; thou art the King of Israel/Yahweh.

John 17 :5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

1 Peter 1 (Jesus) Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory;......


Jesus has always been Jesus in his being, the Father clothed the intelligence of Jesus in eternally existing spirit matter and named him Yahweh, giving him glory and anointing him God with the oil of gladness.

"... Being made so much better than the angels, ....unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." Heb 1

As Yahweh he says " I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded." Isa 45

But he was not complete or perfect, he himself said on the third day I will be perfected, see Luke 13:32. To become perfect Yahweh gave up the glory he had and took on the flesh of mortality.

Heb 5
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

On the third day Jesus rose from the grave with a body of flesh and bone. He ascended to his Father and received of his glory once again thus He had now fulfilled the preordained plan to make him prefect.

The basic underling concept that Yahweh/Jesus progressed to perfection is very very Biblical!

 

[MJFlores]

Who is the Lord Jesus Christ?
What do we, in the Church of Christ, believe?

Just sit back and relax - you could prepare a snack while enjoying the Vid.

 

[KevinSim]

Is the Mormon Jesus a created being?

Absolutely not. Jesus as Mormons understand Him is not any more a created being than Jesus as traditional Christians understand Him is.

 

[KevinSim]

Who is the Lord Jesus Christ?
What do we, in the Church of Christ, believe?

Just sit back and relax - you could prepare a snack while enjoying the Vid.

Wow, do traditional Christians think the Church of Christ is Christian? Talk about abandoning the Nicene Creed!

 

[Rescued One]

No it says; Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

The Intelligence is the part of your being that makes you you, it is your personality, your will and your gender.

"Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose." Proclamation on Family

I think it helps to understand the word perfect, we always say God is perfect meaning there is no wrong in him but that isn't the actual meaning.

This is from Strongs, it says the Greek word is teleioō and it means;
to be finished,
complete,
add what is yet wanting in order to render a thing full,
to bring to the end (goal) proposed,
to bring to a close or fulfilment by event

So is what Mormonism teaches Biblical?

John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God. ..... In him was life; and the life was the light of men.....Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God/El; thou art the King of Israel/Yahweh.

John 17 :5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

1 Peter 1 (Jesus) Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory;......


Jesus has always been Jesus in his being, the Father clothed the intelligence of Jesus in eternally existing spirit matter and named him Yahweh, giving him glory and anointing him God with the oil of gladness.

"... Being made so much better than the angels, ....unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." Heb 1

As Yahweh he says " I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded." Isa 45

But he was not complete or perfect, he himself said on the third day I will be perfected, see Luke 13:32. To become perfect Yahweh gave up the glory he had and took on the flesh of mortality.

Heb 5
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

On the third day Jesus rose from the grave with a body of flesh and bone. He ascended to his Father and received of his glory once again thus He had now fulfilled the preordained plan to make him prefect.

The basic underling concept that Yahweh/Jesus progressed to perfection is very very Biblical!

No, Mormons misinterpret the meaning of Hebrews 5:9.

And being made perfect - That is, being made a "complete" Saviour - a Saviour suited in all respects to redeem people. Sufferings were necessary to the "completeness" or the "finish" of his character as a Saviour, not to his moral perfection, for he was always without sin; see this explained in the notes on Hebrews 2:10.
- Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Hebrews 5:9 Commentaries: And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

Perfect through sufferings - Complete by means of sufferings; that is, to render him wholly qualified for his work, so that he should be a Saviour just adapted to redeem man. This does not mean that he was sinful before and was made holy by his sufferings; nor that he was not in all respects a perfect man before; but it means, that by his sufferings he was made "wholly suited" to be a Saviour of people; and that, therefore, the fact of his being a suffering man was no evidence, as a Jew might have urged, that he was not the Son of God. There was a "completeness," a "filling up," of all which was necessary to his character as a Saviour, by the sufferings which he endured. We are made morally "better" by afflictions, if we receive them in a right manner - for we are sinful, and need to be purified in the furnace of affliction; Christ was not made "better," for he was before perfectly holy, but he was completely endowed for the work which he came to do, by his sorrows. Nor does this mean here precisely that he was exalted to heaven as a "reward" for his sufferings, or that he was raised up to glory as a consequence of them - which was true in itself - but that he was rendered "complete" or "fully qualified" to be a Saviour by his sorrows. Thus, he was rendered complete:

(1) Because his suffering in all the forms that flesh is liable to, made him an example to all his people who shall pass through trials. They have before them a perfect model to show them how to bear afflictions. Had this not occurred, he could not have been regarded as a "complete" or "perfect" Saviour - that is, such a Saviour as we need.

(2) he is able to sympathize with them, and to succour them in their temptations, Hebrews 2:18.

(3) by his sufferings an atonement was made for sin. He would have been an "imperfect" Saviour - if the name "Saviour" could have been given to him at all - if he had not died to make an atonement for transgression. To render him "complete" as a Saviour, it was necessary that he should suffer and die; and when he hung on the cross in the agonies of death, he could appropriately say, "it is "finished." The work is complete. All has been done that could be required to be done; and man may now have the assurance that he has a perfect Saviour, perfect not only in moral character - but perfect in his work, and in his adaptedness to the condition of people;" compare Hebrews 5:8-9.
- Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Hebrews 2:10 Commentaries: For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.

 

[KevinSim]

No, Mormons misinterpret the meaning of Hebrews 5:9.

Phoebe Ann, how do you know that the LDS interpretation of Hebrews 5:9 is an error? How do you go about determining the accurate interpretation of any passage of scripture?

 

[KevinSim]

Who is the Lord Jesus Christ?
What do we, in the Church of Christ, believe?

Just sit back and relax - you could prepare a snack while enjoying the Vid.

This is just proof positive to me that anything can be "proven" by the Bible. The speaker in the video actually makes a few valid points. If you assume that the term God only means one thing every time it's used in the Bible, then he's right that Jesus taught that He was not God. On the other hand, if a term like God could have multiple meanings, then how do you know what anything in the Bible really means?

In my opinion the Bible is a fine book for introducing people to the idea of a good God that loves them individually. But I see no reason to believe that God ever intended the Bible to be the final, last court of arbitration on all theological issues, that many traditional Christians seem to think it is.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Phoebe Ann, how do you know that the LDS interpretation of Hebrews 5:9 is an error? How do you go about determining the accurate interpretation of any passage of scripture?

She took off her lds filtered glasses and put on the armor of God.

 

[KevinSim]

She took off her lds filtered glasses and put on the armor of God.

Is this right what BigDaddy4 said, Phoebe Ann? If so, how did you know that you had put on the armor of God? And how does putting on that armor keep you from interpreting passages of scripture erroneously?

 

[Rescued One]

No it says; Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

The Intelligence is the part of your being that makes you you, it is your personality, your will and your gender.

"Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose." Proclamation on Family

If you want to insist that Jesus was not created, then neither is anyone or anything else.

 

[KevinSim]

If you want to insist that Jesus was not created, then neither is anyone or anything else.

That's absolutely right. Nobody is created. We all were in the beginning with God.