Catholic group defies church, ordains woman priest in NC

"Hear" in Scripture often carries the sense of obeying, or doing what is asked. I agree that God does not bend himself to our disordered desires. But I don't think that amounts to a total disconnection from God, either.

Mrs.PGL said:

there is no greater teacher than Jesus, and if the RCC wants to call itself Christian, it should learn that.

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The Catholic Church accepted that 2 thousand years ago.

JoeP222w said:

This is what happens when you deny Sola Scriptura and Toto Scriptura.

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The Apostles didn't teach or use either so why accept a tradition of some new churches which began around 1600 years after Jesus established his Church?

Mrs.PGL said:

Let's look at this realistically. Who would have her smiling and celebrating like that for defying scripture? That's who will be teaching those who follow her.

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How has she defied Scripture? She defied the Catholic Church, okay, but how has she defied Scripture? There are many interpretations regarding the ordination of both men and women. Remember, some churches, the Roman Catholic Church, won't ordain married men either. However, other Catholics, the Old Catholics and Anglo-Catholics, have had no or few issues with the ordination of women. There are many Old Catholic churches and Anglican churches in the Anglo-Catholic tradition that welcome women priests and even bishops.

Yarddog said:

The Apostles didn't teach or use either so why accept a tradition of some new churches which began around 1600 years after Jesus established his Church?

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You are very mistaken.

Jesus taught it and so did the Apostles.

Matthew 12:3
Matthew 12:5
Matthew 19:4
Matthew 22:31
Mark 12:10
Mark 12:26
Luke 6:3

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, (17) that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Raphael Jauregui said:

How has she defied Scripture? She defied the Catholic Church, okay, but how has she defied Scripture? There are many interpretations regarding the ordination of both men and women. Remember, some churches, the Roman Catholic Church, won't ordain married men either. However, other Catholics, the Old Catholics and Anglo-Catholics, have had no or few issues with the ordination of women. There are many Old Catholic churches and Anglican churches in the Anglo-Catholic tradition that welcome women priests and even bishops.

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Not to say that she "defied" scripture but I'm sure you know why the Catholic and Orthodox Churches do not ordain women is based on scripture and the traditions handed down by the Apostles. Also, the Catholic Church does ordain married men, if they were already married when they sought the priesthood.

JoeP222w said:

You are very mistaken.

Jesus taught it and so did the Apostles.

Matthew 12:3
Matthew 12:5
Matthew 19:4
Matthew 22:31
Mark 12:10
Mark 12:26
Luke 6:3

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, (17) that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

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Try again, none of those scriptures teach sola or toto scruptura.

Edit: AS we see in 2 Thess. 15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

Jesus taught by word of mouth, for the most part. The Gospel is all that he taught and what God revealed through his Holy Spirit, to the Church.

Yarddog said:

Not to say that she "defied" scripture but I'm sure you know why the Catholic and Orthodox Churches do not ordain women is based on scripture and the traditions handed down by the Apostles. Also, the Catholic Church does ordain married men, if they were already married when they sought the priesthood.

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The reasons typically given are more related to tradition than to Scripture. One reason is that Catholics and Eastern Orthodox believe that the priest is an 'alt christus' or 'other Christ' in the sense that the priest represents Christ at the altar. Since Christ was male, Catholic and Orthodox theologians argue that priests should be male. Logically, however, then doesn't that mean that priests should also be chosen from among circumcised Hebrews as someone mentioned above? On the men point, the Catholic Church sometimes ordains men who are married. As a rule, though, the western Catholic Church only ordains celibate men who are not in relationships. The Eastern Catholic Church ordains married men, but the western Catholic Church has not yet made that full decision.

Yarddog said:

the Catholic and Orthodox Churches do not ordain women is based on scripture and the traditions handed down by the Apostles.

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Interestingly, the Coptic Church, Greek Orthodox Churches of Greece and Alexandria, and the Armenian Orthodox Church have consecrated women as deacons as they have recently restored the women's diaconate. Patriarch Theodoros of Alexandria performs first consecration of deaconesses - Basilica.ro

Raphael Jauregui said:

Interestingly, the Coptic Church, Greek Orthodox Churches of Greece and Alexandria, and the Armenian Orthodox Church have consecrated women as deacons as they have recently restored the women's diaconate. Patriarch Theodoros of Alexandria performs first consecration of deaconesses - Basilica.ro

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There were female deacons in the early Church and I have read that Pope Francis is considering this for the Catholic Church.

Yarddog said:

Try again, none of those scriptures teach sola or toto scruptura.

Edit: AS we see in 2 Thess. 15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

Jesus taught by word of mouth, for the most part. The Gospel is all that he taught and what God revealed through his Holy Spirit, to the Church.

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And the traditions that Paul taught was that Scripture is the highest authority, not the church.

Yarddog said:

I have read that Pope Francis is considering this for the Catholic Church.

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I heard that too! It'll be fascinating to see how the conversation progresses.

JoeP222w said:

And the traditions that Paul taught was that Scripture is the highest authority, not the church.

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Maybe you can provide us with where you find that?

When Paul spoke of the scriptures he was referring to the writings of Judaism. Paul, being one of the leaders of the Church, gave the traditions given to him by Jesus, through the Holy Spirit, because Paul basically didn't understand those writings, even though he had been taught them by one of the great Rabbis, until Jesus opened his mind to them.

The Church, at that didn't hold scripture as the highest authority, they held God as the highest authority and what He revealed to them through His Son Jesus Christ. They used scripture when they went to the Jews but they used the traditions of the Gospel to reveal the truth to those Jews.

No part of the ancient Church used sola scriptura because they knew that God was revealing his will through more than the written word.

BroIgnatius said:

No, there are no civil laws or regulations that apply. There are Canonical penalties, however, such as the fact that they are excommunicated even though they do not care. They will care when they met God someday.

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What makes it still even worse is that a simple well intentioned, misled person person with below average powers of deduction may be mislead by such a church, especially by their "statement," and believe they can go there and receive valid sacraments. Their Christian conscience should be stopping them from twisting the truth to meet their requirements. A shameful act in being perpetrated indeed.

Yarddog said:

No part of the ancient Church used sola scriptura because they knew that God was revealing his will through more than the written word.

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I have to disagree as in 2nd Peter 3:15-16 he accepted Paul's writing as scripture and 1st Timothy 5:18 Paul quoted Luke as scripture.
Of course written word has to have a power source just like a PC needs a power source but claiming the scripture is not Word of God is like claiming software is not code.
( The book of Esther reveals an example of the written words were backed by the power and authority of the king that couldn't be changed.)

Smidlee said:

I have to disagree as in 2nd Peter 3:15-16 he accepted Paul's writing as scripture and 1st Timothy 5:18 Paul quoted Luke as scripture.
Of course written word has to have a power source just like a PC needs a power source but claiming the scripture is not Word of God is like claiming software is not code.
( The book of Esther reveals an example of the written words were backed by the power and authority of the king that couldn't be changed.)

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What does that have to do with "sola scriptura"? Sola Scriptura is a doctrine within the newer churches which says that the Bible is the supreme authority is matters of doctrine and practice but most of the New Testament writings did not even exist when Peter and Paul wrote. Are you saying that Peter thought that what he wrote was more important than what he spoke and taught? We have two epistles by Peter but can you imagine how much he taught to his disciples that were never recorded as being from him?

Very few people doubt that the books which the Catholic Church chose to include in the NT and proclaim as Holy Scripture are God breathed but so was each and every Holy Tradition that the Apostles taught to the Bishops that they appointed to carry on God's work of building up the Church.

God Bless

Raphael Jauregui said:

How has she defied Scripture? She defied the Catholic Church, okay, but how has she defied Scripture? There are many interpretations regarding the ordination of both men and women. Remember, some churches, the Roman Catholic Church, won't ordain married men either. However, other Catholics, the Old Catholics and Anglo-Catholics, have had no or few issues with the ordination of women. There are many Old Catholic churches and Anglican churches in the Anglo-Catholic tradition that welcome women priests and even bishops.

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Women were created to help me (Genesis) Women are not to have authority over or teach men (1 Timothy) She is just as bad as someone promoting homosexuality, stealing, adultery - she is promoting rebellion against God. She needs prayer, not endorsement.

Mrs.PGL said:

Women were created to help me (Genesis) Women are not to have authority over or teach men (1 Timothy) She is just as bad as someone promoting homosexuality, stealing, adultery - she is promoting rebellion against God. She needs prayer, not endorsement.

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Men and women were both created equally in God's image. A woman can represent Christ at the altar just as much as any man. There is no gender in Christ for all are one in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:28).

Raphael Jauregui said:

Men and women were both created equally in God's image. A woman can represent Christ at the altar just as much as any man. There is no gender in Christ for all are one in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:28).

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As far as salvation is concerned, yes, there is no gender distinction....but....as far as teaching men is concerned, there is.
1 Timothy 2:11Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.
1 Timothy
If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.2Therefore an overseera must be above reproach, the husband of one wife,b sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, 5for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God’s church? 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

Qualifications for Deacons

8Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued,c not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. 9They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. 11Their wives likewisedmust be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. 12Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. 13For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

This idea that God created men and women equally is a bastardization of Scripture. God created us equal in dignity under God, and yes, in His image.

Creating us in His image means that He gave us a Rational Soul. It is the rational soul that gives us the characteristics God intended us to have -- love, awareness of Him, awareness of mortality, creativity, ability to worship Him, etc.

He did not, however, give us equal roles to play, or equal talents, intelligence, or gifts.

St. Paul's statement on this:

(Galatians 3:28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

In the distribution of gift St. Paul instructs us "All these [charism gifts] are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills." (1 Cor 12:11).

As Mrs. PGL has posted, the Scripture is clear that there are different roles to play for men and women. One major misinterpretation, however, about women remaining quiet is that these passages are talking about the liturgy of the Mass. This among other passages and teachings of the Apostles is an indication that the priesthood and ordained deaconate is reserved to men.

The fact that men and women have different roles is obvious in biology and psychology. Men are the progenitors and women carry and give birth to the babies. Men and woman have different psychologies and even different brains, as science has proven in recent decades. Men cannot be mothers and women cannot be fathers.

Thus, all of nature and humanity speaks to differences and various roles that each of us play. The fact that only men, for example, can be priests is no more unequal than the fact the only women give birth to babies. It is merely different roles, but roles of equal dignity.