Catholic group defies church, ordains woman priest in NC

Paidiske

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If, however, we say that some of what's in the Bible is just cultural, i.e. what some people of another time and place thought for reasons applicable to them but not to us, the rest of the Bible is undermined as well, and no doctrine is safe from the claim that "X is just what those people believe to be true, but we know better. Here's what we think the truth is now."

I'm not sure that's exactly what's happening here, though? Saying that culture influenced Scripture is stating something incredibly obvious. Saying that we might want to separate some of those cultural influences from our own practice is not really foreign to any contemporary Christian (although some may only do so unconsciously).

Though, the claim needs to be made for a canonical theology which still shapes our contemporary thinking and practice in an appropriately enculturated way for our own place and time. We can't just believe whatever we like and pretend God endorses it because it feels good. We need to be able to establish a case for it from within Scripture.

Fortunately for proponents of women's ordination, we are able to do that. Not everyone might find the case convincing, but it's not divorced from a Scriptural foundation.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Women were unordained deaconesses. And women never at any time presided over the Mass. That is reserved to priests only.
Let me throw this in here as i recover from the flu (and before my headache comes back):

1. There was not separate sacerdotal class of believers in the NT church. All believers are called to sacrifice (Rm. 12:1; 15:16; Phil. 2:17; 4:18; Heb. 13:15,16; cf. 9:9) and all constitute the only priesthood (hieráteuma) in the NT church, that of all believers, (1Pt. 2:5,9; Re 1:6; 5:10; 20:6).

2. Nowhere does the Holy Spirit use the distinctive Greek word for what we refer to in English as "priests." For the words “hiereus” and “archiereus" ("priest" and "high priest" as in Heb. 4:15; 10:11) are the Greek words which the Holy Spirit distinctively uses for a separate sacerdotal (sacrificing) class in the New Testament (over 280 times total*, mainly as archiereus”) that of Old Testament "priests" (Hebrew ko^he^n) as well as those of pagans and the general priesthood of all NT believers. But which words He never uses for New Testament pastors ("poime¯n"), which are called presbuteros (senior/elder) or episkopos (superintendent/overseer), which refers to those in one pastoral office. (Titus 1:5,7; Acts 20:17,28.

The English word "priest" is a etymological corruption of the Greek presbuteros, if with uncertainty, being referred to in Old English (around 700 to 1000 AD) as "preostas" or "preost," and finally resulting in the modern English "priest," which originally was used for presbuteros, but came to be used for both OT "ko^he^n" and NT “hiereus,” thereby losing the distinction the Holy Spirit provided by never using the distinctive term of hiereus for NT presbuteros, or describing as them as a distinctive sacerdotal class of believers. Catholicism attempts to justify using the same distinctive word for both OT "ko^he^n" and NT presbuteros via an imposed functional equivalence, supposing NT presbuteros engaged in a unique sacrificial ministry.

3. There was no Mass in the NT church, that of a priests officiating over the Lord's supper, changing the elements in to the "real" body and blood of Christ under the appearance of bread and wine (which actually no longer exist, being replaced by the "Real Presence" of Christ, until the non-existent bread or wine begins to decay) and which is offered by the priest as a sacrifice for sin, and which he then dispenses to the people in order for them to obtain spiritual and eternal life, which ritual is the supreme central activity of the Catholic church and the primary active function of her pastors.

No NT pastor is even described officiating at the Lord's supper, or charged with doing so in the record of the NT church (Acts onward, which writings show us how the NT church understood the gospels), nor is the Lord's supper even manifestly described in Acts (simply refers to breaking of bread) or the rest of the NT onward, except in one epistle, which does not describe the distinctive Cath. Eucharist.

4. Instead of dispensing bread as part of their ordained function, and offering the Lord's supper as a sacrifice for sin, instead the primary work of NT pastors is that of prayer and preaching. (Act 6:3,4; 2 Tim.4:2)) by which they “feed the flock” (Acts 20:28; 1Pt. 5:2) for the word is called spiritual "milk," (1Co. 3:22; 1Pt. 1:22) and "meat," (Heb. 5:12-14) what is said to "nourish" the souls of believers, and believing it is how the lost obtain life in themselves. (1 Timothy 4:6; ;Acts 15:7-9; cf. Psalms 19:7) In contrast, nowhere in the record of the NT church is the Lord's supper described as spiritual food, and the means of obtaining spiritual life in oneself.

That said, the NT pastorate is clearly restricted to males, who is the head of the women, and which reflects the order within the Trinity.

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)

And which was the standard in Protestantism. More here by God's grace: ARE WOMEN PASTORS BIBLICAL?
 
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Albion

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Ah, yes, but that's not the issue, Paidiske. The post we're working from said this:

I don't get why there's something against women priests. The only reason the Bible supposedly says that is because the Bible and the society at the time was formed by men, and women were seen as lesser and more property than people. We rightly see men and women as equal now.

That is where these controversies inevitably wind up, not with any measured analysis of the force of culture upon particular wording or a problem of idioms or anything else like that. Inevitably it becomes, "The Bible (in that section which the speaker cares about, that is) is out of date, doesn't count in our day and age, etc."

It inevitably ends up with the #1 claim made by the pro-women's ordination people during the debates in ECUSA a few years back: "The Holy Spirit changed his mind. Take it from us."
 
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Paidiske

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I have no doubt that there are people who get exasperated and offer over-simplified arguments at times.

But I sometimes feel, Albion, when we're discussing this, that you're still trying to have the discussion ECUSA should have had (when was it, in the 70s?). And yet the rest of us are trying to have a different discussion, and it becomes very difficult when it feels as if you're attributing to us a position or arguments which are not exactly ours.
 
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Paidiske

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It inevitably ends up with the #1 claim made by the pro-women's ordination people during the debates in ECUSA a few years back: "The Holy Spirit changed his mind. Take it from us."

It's this sort of thing, which you bring up often, even when it's not directly the matter under discussion. I sometimes am left feeling like I'm trying to answer for people who were having this argument before I was born!

Not that there isn't room to discuss ECUSA and what was and wasn't said, and all of that, but perhaps that could be its own discussion?
 
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BroIgnatius

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Any group that splits off from the parent inherits all the history of the parent, so we all come from Christ, just as we come from Adam and all come from Abraham. First a follower of Christ then whatever tradition of the church you are a part of. If you are a Catholic first then you need to surrender your identity of catholicism to follow Christ; as is the demand of Christ. The Catholic church in practice is unrecognizable from 33 AD. Just because there is a claim to starting on track doesn't mean it has continued on track and such is the great debate of the church; but at the very least all come from Christ and saying yours is the true start disvalues other traditions as genuine and separates Christ's church.

You are a split from the Catholic Church, as are all denominations today. The history in that chart, however, is fantasy.
 
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BroIgnatius

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But the history is even less in agreement with Broignatius' claim than that (which I know is just the standard revisionist stuff that his church teaches all its people, so nothing very personal or special there).

Yes, when a "branch" of any such "tree" develops, it's part of that tree, not something that just came out of nowhere. However, the tree of early Christianity was non-denominational. That was the church referred to in history as the "Undivided Church." Later on, the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox churches, the Oriental Orthodox, the Armenian, the Church of the East, and several others developed separately, coming from it.

All of these have claims on the history going all the way back to the Apostolic church founded in AD 33. Each of them could boast that it alone can make the claim, but in truth they all have the same early history.

Actually, history is in complete agreement with what I said. Revisionist history may differ. First Century Christianity was the Catholic Church. We even have extant manuscripts from Pope Clement I. The label of Catholic was applied in 107 AD by St Ignatius of Antioch.

Both history and Scripture proves the Catholic Church.
 
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tulipbee

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Interesting chart. but listing a laughable bogus history based on anti-Catholic bias with no relationship to truth.

The Catholic Church is the only group that goes back to 33 AD. Both Scripture and history proves that.
The rock, right?
Superstar-Category_Superstar_562x408_theRock.png
 
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Greyy

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Oh, I don't think it's that simple. Even in that brief article covering this ordination, the women's group people took pains to "talk Catholic" about ltheir orders, where the Apostolic Succession comes from, and more. You can bet that, if there were a longer interview, they would not be arguing that they're really Roman Catholic--along with a lot of talk about altar calls, baptisms in rivers, Sola Scriptura, or anything else that might suggest a sympathy for any belief or practice that's not typically Roman Catholic.

That they are not evangelical Christians does not mean they are Catholic.

There is absolutely no basis for their organization calling itself Roman Catholic. The group began by claiming that a Roman Catholic Bishop in good standing and in full communion with the Pope secretly ordained women of their organization as bishops. That itself, is an extremely far fetched basis of a rebel "Catholic group." There have been organizations, started by the Church which ended up ex-communicated. While some would argue their broke union means they are no longer Catholic, there is still some reasonable justifications for calling themselves Catholic. But a person being ordained in secret by a bishop and then starting their own organization is an entirely different issue.

As it turned out, they lied. They were ordained by a person ordained by others claiming to have apostolic succession, but had nothing to do with the Catholic Church. I can go out and find someone claiming to have apostolic succession and get ordained by them as a bishop and start my own group. There is absolutely no basis for me claiming it is "Catholic." That right there is the end of the discussion.

But, it only gets worse for them. There is nothing about the group that is Catholic structurally. What the heck are they? Are they are religious order? Are they an apostolic society? They have no structure and have no authority which they define as a "circular model of governance." So you don't have any basis for Catholicism, you don't exist as anything Catholic... surely... you must have some purpose.

And here it is: "Our purpose as an organization focused on the preparation and ordination of women to the Roman Catholic priesthood" makes it apparent it is nothing more than a protest movement. They exist to ordain women. It is a group of women that got ordained through a guy claiming to have apostolic succession, who exist to ordain other women.
 
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Greyy

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Cardinal O’Malley, female Methodist pastor team up on ritual

Tuesday
Posted Jan 14, 2014 at 12:01 AM Updated Jan 14, 2014 at 2:17 PM

The Rev. Anne Robertson of Plymouth never thought she’d share a baptism remembrance ritual with the cardinal -- until he asked her to do so during a special service in Sudbury

By Lane Lambert
The Rev. Anne Robertson has baptized more infants and youngsters than she can count in her past years as a United Methodist minister in Massachusetts, New Hampshire and Florida.

But the Plymouth resident and Massachusetts Bible Society director never imagined that she’d get the chance to share a ritual drop of water for a baptism remembrance with a Roman Catholic cardinal.
View attachment 195907

Until Sunday, when Cardinal Sean O’Malley asked her.
It is perfectly fine for a Cardinal to participate in an ecumenical service with a female protestant pastor with symbolic dropping of water in rememberance of baptism.
 
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Greyy

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Being in sin and not being a part of the Church are two different things. The main issue here wasn't whether or not the people we're speaking of committed a sin by conducting that ordination but whether they remain part of the Church of Rome as they say.

The questions seems to be the claims made by the organization which makes this news. Honestly, no one cares if a Catholic gets ordained by some religious organization.
 
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Greyy

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Greyy

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There were female deacons in the early Church and I have read that Pope Francis is considering this for the Catholic Church.

Before anyone gets confused, we know that women served in minstry as deaconesses. This does not mean the same thing as being an ordained minister.
 
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Yarddog

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Before anyone gets confused, we know that women served in minstry as deaconesses. This does not mean the same thing as being an ordained minister.
No confusion here. But, this new commission is looking into women being ordained as deacons.
 
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BroIgnatius

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No confusion here. But, this new commission is looking into women being ordained as deacons.

To help with any confusion anyone has, the word "ordained" is not the same thing as being ordained into Holy Orders. It is impossible for a woman to be ordained into Holy Orders.

When using the term "ordained", which really shouldn't be used as it confuses people, as it applies to deaconess, it's meaning is 2nd of two definitions in the dictionary: "Order or decree (something) officially." (Oxford Living Dictionary, English definition)

The superior authority is a bishop who officially (gives an order or decree) installs a woman in the ministry of a deaconess, with duties that are particular to that office. It is not Holy Orders.
 
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Yarddog

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To help with any confusion anyone has, the word "ordained" is not the same thing as being ordained into Holy Orders. It is impossible for a woman to be ordained into Holy Orders.

When using the term "ordained", which really shouldn't be used as it confuses people, as it applies to deaconess, it's meaning is 2nd of two definitions in the dictionary: "Order or decree (something) officially." (Oxford Living Dictionary, English definition)

The superior authority is a bishop who officially (gives an order or decree) installs a woman in the ministry of a deaconess, with duties that are particular to that office. It is not Holy Orders.
According to Catholic.com, Deacons are ordained with the sacrament of holy orders which allows them to read the Gospel and to deliver sermons. This is a lower ordination than priests receive, though.

Pope Francis is having the history of female deacons researched to see if they may be able to receive this ordination as well. It all depends on just what those women did in the early Church.
 
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BroIgnatius

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According to Catholic.com, Deacons are ordained with the sacrament of holy orders which allows them to read the Gospel and to deliver sermons. This is a lower ordination than priests receive, though.

Pope Francis is having the history of female deacons researched to see if they may be able to receive this ordination as well. It all depends on just what those women did in the early Church.

Deaconesses was needed primary to assist when women were baptized. This had to do with modesty issues. They ministered to women and children, but they were not in Holy Orders.

Deacons do not have a "lower ordination" than priests. Holy Orders is Holy Orders. Rather a deacon has his role and a priest has his, a bishop has his. All three are ordained to Holy Orders, but their consecration is to different ranks and roles.

It is not possible to ordain a woman to Holy Orders. Pope Francis cannot change that as it is infallible teaching. He is have research done as to the detailed of the deaconess in the early centuries as a possibility of creating the office of deaconess again today. But this will not be to Holy Orders.
 
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Deaconesses was needed primary to assist when women were baptized. This had to do with modesty issues. They ministered to women and children, but they were not in Holy Orders.

Deacons do not have a "lower ordination" than priests. Holy Orders is Holy Orders. Rather a deacon has his role and a priest has his, a bishop has his. All three are ordained to Holy Orders, but their consecration is to different ranks and roles.

It is not possible to ordain a woman to Holy Orders. Pope Francis cannot change that as it is infallible teaching. He is have research done as to the detailed of the deaconess in the early centuries as a possibility of creating the office of deaconess again today. But this will not be to Holy Orders.
It is up to the commission and the Pope to decide if female deacons is possible.
 
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