Lucifer in Isaiah 14 can't be anyone else but Satan...

Kenneth Redden

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Is this a serious statement? If you can, I would like to see some credible scholarship supporting this.

None of this makes any sense to me.
That's the problem. There is no credible scholarship supporting this because Christian Hermeneutics has become a stumbling block to true biblical study. Because not only do you not see it, but your hermeneutical view blinds you to the demonstration the apostle Paul wrote afore in few words, all together. This is the interpretation of the KJV Bible, which is implied in 2 Peter 1:20.
 
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Der Alte

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That's the problem. There is no credible scholarship supporting this because Christian Hermeneutics has become a stumbling block to true biblical study. Because not only do you not see it, but your hermeneutical view blinds you to the demonstration the apostle Paul wrote afore in few words, all together. This is the interpretation of the KJV Bible, which is implied in 2 Peter 1:20.

Thank you I have heard it all before Joseph Smith, Charles Russell, John Thomas, Ellen White, L. Ron Hubbard etc.
 
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Kenneth Redden

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None of this makes any sense to me.
But its very simple. Isaiah 28:10 says we must learn, precept upon precept, like using martyr in Revelation 2:13 to understand that Satan murdered, "the deep," with a lie, as was in his heart. We learn also, line upon line, like using the word, "father," from the definition of the name, Antipas, to join, "father," in John 8:44. Its like using the word, "abode," in John 8:44 to call "dwelleth" in Revelation 2:13.
Thank you I have heard it all before Joseph Smith, Charles Russell, John Thomas, Ellen White, L. Ron Hubbard etc.
You're welcome. The problem with Christian Hermeneutics is that it forces the student to view the Word of God, from the 1st Century AD; not from the 21st Century, which is where we live today!
 
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Der Alte

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But its very simple. Isaiah 28:10 says we must learn, precept upon precept, like using martyr in Revelation 2:13 to understand that Satan murdered, "the deep," with a lie, as was in his heart.
Anyone can prove almost anything about the Bible by taking one verse from one place, another verse from another place and more verses from different places jam them all together as if it is one coherent thought. That is how the folks I mentioned above deceived their followers.
You're welcome. The problem with Christian Hermeneutics is that it forces the student to view the Word of God, from the 1st Century AD; not from the 21st Century, which is where we live today!
The problem with this argument is I can't seem to find any verses which tell me that the word of God changed somehow between the 1st century and this century. And if you attempt to support this argument scripturally please don't waste time with a bunch of out-of-context proof texts as you have done here.
 
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Kenneth Redden

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Anyone can prove almost anything about the Bible by taking one verse from one place, another verse from another place and more verses from different places jam them all together as if it is one coherent thought. That is how the folks I mentioned above deceived their followers.
There is a very simple logic to the process Paul has shown in his demonstration. In fact, I think that virtually any logical association of patterns is allowed; as long as you know that whatever and wherever you read, it is regarding the beginning of the creation and following, as known in the book of Genesis.

The problem with this argument is I can't seem to find any verses which tell me that the word of God changed somehow between the 1st century and this century. And if you attempt to support this argument scripturally please don't waste time with a bunch of out-of-context proof texts as you have done here.
Of course not, and you won't. It is not God who has changed, it is we who have changed, having scientific knowledge of the Universe. Therefore; we need more answers in order to reconcile the KJV Bible in the 21st Century. This is what Paul has given to us; today, the fourth day of the creation!
 
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Kenneth Redden

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Anyone can prove almost anything about the Bible by taking one verse from one place, another verse from another place and more verses from different places jam them all together as if it is one coherent thought. That is how the folks I mentioned above deceived their followers.

The problem with this argument is I can't seem to find any verses which tell me that the word of God changed somehow between the 1st century and this century. And if you attempt to support this argument scripturally please don't waste time with a bunch of out-of-context proof texts as you have done here.
Context!?! You have absolutely no idea of the context. Consider the KJV Bible written for the Revelation of Jesus Christ, therefore; it is him who is to be understood! Not the believer!
 
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Der Alte

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There is a very simple logic to the process Paul has shown in his demonstration. In fact, I think that virtually any logical association of patterns is allowed; as long as you know that whatever and wherever you read, it is regarding the beginning of the creation and following, as known in the book of Genesis.
Of course not, and you won't. It is not God who has changed, it is we who have changed, having scientific knowledge of the Universe. Therefore; we need more answers in order to reconcile the KJV Bible in the 21st Century. This is what Paul has given to us; today, the fourth day of the creation!

Same old snake oil as dispensed by the likes of Joseph Smith, Charles Russell, John Thomas, Ellen White, L. Ron Hubbard, John Thomas etc. The church has been wrong for 2000+ years but someone claims to have found the only true truth. So everyone should flock to them and learn the "truth."
 
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Kenneth Redden

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Anyone can prove almost anything about the Bible by taking one verse from one place, another verse from another place and more verses from different places jam them all together as if it is one coherent thought. That is how the folks I mentioned above deceived their followers.

The problem with this argument is I can't seem to find any verses which tell me that the word of God changed somehow between the 1st century and this century. And if you attempt to support this argument scripturally please don't waste time with a bunch of out-of-context proof texts as you have done here.
We read the KJV Bible through Christ Jesus' eyes!
 
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Kenneth Redden

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Same old snake oil as dispensed by the likes of Joseph Smith, Charles Russell, John Thomas, Ellen White, L. Ron Hubbard, John Thomas etc. The church has been wrong for 2000+ years but someone claims to have found the only true truth. So everyone should flock to them and learn the "truth."
I don't know what to respond to here. I could say, "it does too;" but you've already used that argument, or lack of one. Please say what you mean, and be specific; then maybe I could respond with a little more than what I have here.
 
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Der Alte

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We read the KJV Bible through Christ Jesus' eyes!
You seem to be saying the opposite in this previous post.
Kenneth Redden said:
Therefore; we need more answers in order to reconcile the KJV Bible in the 21st Century. This is what Paul has given to us; today, the fourth day of the creation!
 
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Kenneth Redden

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Anyone can prove almost anything about the Bible by taking one verse from one place, another verse from another place and more verses from different places jam them all together as if it is one coherent thought. That is how the folks I mentioned above deceived their followers.

The problem with this argument is I can't seem to find any verses which tell me that the word of God changed somehow between the 1st century and this century. And if you attempt to support this argument scripturally please don't waste time with a bunch of out-of-context proof texts as you have done here.
No, it is not God who has changed, it is we who have changed; we now have scientific knowledge, and that is the difference.
 
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Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isaiah 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Isaiah 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?



1966

01966 heylel {hay-lale'}
from 01984 (in the sense of brightness); TWOT - 499a; n m
AV - Lucifer 1; 1

Lucifer = "light-bearer"
1) shining one, morning star, Lucifer
1a) of the king of Babylon and Satan (fig.)
2) (TWOT) 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon



OT:1966
heylel (hay-lale'); from OT:1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning-star:


KJV - lucifer (the king of Babylon).


2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.


The Hebrew word for Satan's original name is Heylel, Lucifer in the English tongue. Lucifer in Latin originates from two words, "Lux" and "Ferre" or "Lux-ferre" (from lux, "light", and ferre, "to bear, bring"). When we speak of Lucifer in English we are talking about the one known as Heylel in the Hebrew. The same individual with a name spanning a few, if not more, languages.


Lucifer was created "full of wisdom" meaning very smart, "perfect in beauty" and he "sealed up the sum" which means he was created as a "full pattern" which is thought to mean "perfect", with nothing lacking. But, all those things together caused Lucifer to think he was greater than he really was so he sought to have a greater status.


He then is said to want to have his throne above God's and be like the Most High but is cast down to the pit. If that doesn't remind you of what happens to Satan then nothing I say will.


2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


2 Thessalonians:


"exalteth himself above all that is called God"
"shewing himself that he is God"


Isaiah:


"I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God"
"I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High"


Types or foreshadows are used in scripture. It is common for someone to have done something which really points forward to someone else fulfilling a prophecy. There have been many foreshadows of Christ, and there are many of Satan. The King of Babylon may have been a real human being or might have literally been Satan, but whoever it was they did some of the things that are speaking of things Satan will do in the end times. Both tried/will try to be God but it will be Satan who will do it on a far grander, and worldwide scale.


Ezekiel 28:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
Ezekiel 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:


Here another man (or possibly Satan himself by another name) is the foreshadow of the endtimes Satan. Again, the same type of thing occurring. Things repeat over and over to teach us!


Ezekiel 28:3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
Ezekiel 28:4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
Ezekiel 28:5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
Ezekiel 28:6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
Ezekiel 28:7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
Ezekiel 28:8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.


Remember Isaiah?


Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.



Ezekiel 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
Ezekiel 28:10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
Ezekiel 28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Ezekiel 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.


How many people were in the garden of God and had been an anointed Cherub?


Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Ezekiel 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezekiel 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Ezekiel 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Ezekiel 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.


Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

This isnt literal lightning but a falling or shooting star. One that has that long tail of light that appears like a bolt of lightning, which also denotes how bright he is, or at least how bright he likes to think he is.


lightning
796

796 astrape {as-trap-ay'}

from 797; TDNT - 1:505,86; n f

AV - lightning 8, light shining 1; 9

1) lightning
1a) of the gleam of a lamp


"the gleam of a lamp"

Revelation 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Revelation 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

"burning as it were a lamp"

Christ himself documenting satans future fall.


Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Rev 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.

I believe that "morning star" is a title many can have not just one person. It's a title that means a person is important and has authority. Lucifer was someone who was a morning star but he fell and cannot be called this any longer.



Some men throughout history have matched some of these things but only one being fits them all and that is Satan, Lucifer or whatever name you want to use. Only that fallen Cherub is the one this is fully directed at.

Lucifer is a human king as is the king of tyre. Both represent satan,
 
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Lucifer is a human king as is the king of tyre. Both represent satan,

So you are saying there was no way Satan actually made himself a king and ruled people? How do you know either was a "human king"?
 
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Kenneth Redden

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Lucifer is a human king as is the king of tyre. Both represent satan,
I don't think the word, "human," applies here. The correct word is, "man;" "humans" may have evolved in this earth. Nevertheless, I think the story of how Satan cast darkness upon the face of the deep, in Genesis 1:2 is addressed in Revelation 2:12-13, along with the verses added through Paul's interpretation, Isaiah 14:12-14 and John 8:44. And Lucifer is the devil, Satan!
 
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Der Alte

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There is no "Lucifer" in the Jewish translations.
1917 JPS Isa 14:12
(12) How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, that didst cast lots over the nations!

Pre-Christian Targum
Isa 14:12 How art thou cast down from on high, who wast shining among the sons of men as the star Venus* among the stars: thou art dashed down to the earth, who wast a slaughterer among the nations.
* Literally " as the bright star." Often met with in the rabbinical writings, signifying the planet Venus.

225 BC LXX Isa 14:12 πῶς ἐξέπεσεν ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ ὁ ἑωσφόρος ὁ πρωὶ ἀνατέλλων; συνετρίβη εἰς τὴν γῆν ὁ ἀποστέλλων πρὸς πάντα τὰ ἔθνη.


phōsphoros φωσφόρος foce-for'-os
From G5457 and G5342; light bearing (“phosphorus”), that is, specifically) the morning star (figuratively): - day star.


ἕως heōs heh'-oce
Of uncertain affinity; a conjugation, preposition and adverb of continuance, until (of time and place): - even (until, unto), (as) far (as), how long, (un-) til (-l), (hither-, un-, up) to, while (-s).

 
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There is no "Lucifer" in the Jewish translations.


How is that helpful? You already know Lucifer is English/Latin for the Hebrew word heylel. So implying "Lucifer" isn't correct is misleading.
 
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Kenneth Redden

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Anyone can prove almost anything about the Bible by taking one verse from one place, another verse from another place and more verses from different places jam them all together as if it is one coherent thought. That is how the folks I mentioned above deceived their followers.
Good, you could use that as a good description of the way to read the demonstration the apostle Paul has for us in all his epistles. Instruction may be needed in the way to take one verse from one place, another verse from another place and more verses from different places jam them all together as if it is one coherent thought.
 
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