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Featured Lucifer in Isaiah 14 can't be anyone else but Satan...

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ewq1938, Feb 15, 2017.

  1. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Won with the world is a loss. Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
    Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
    Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
    Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
    Isaiah 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
    Isaiah 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?



    1966

    01966 heylel {hay-lale'}
    from 01984 (in the sense of brightness); TWOT - 499a; n m
    AV - Lucifer 1; 1

    Lucifer = "light-bearer"
    1) shining one, morning star, Lucifer
    1a) of the king of Babylon and Satan (fig.)
    2) (TWOT) 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon



    OT:1966
    heylel (hay-lale'); from OT:1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning-star:


    KJV - lucifer (the king of Babylon).


    2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.


    The Hebrew word for Satan's original name is Heylel, Lucifer in the English tongue. Lucifer in Latin originates from two words, "Lux" and "Ferre" or "Lux-ferre" (from lux, "light", and ferre, "to bear, bring"). When we speak of Lucifer in English we are talking about the one known as Heylel in the Hebrew. The same individual with a name spanning a few, if not more, languages.


    Lucifer was created "full of wisdom" meaning very smart, "perfect in beauty" and he "sealed up the sum" which means he was created as a "full pattern" which is thought to mean "perfect", with nothing lacking. But, all those things together caused Lucifer to think he was greater than he really was so he sought to have a greater status.


    He then is said to want to have his throne above God's and be like the Most High but is cast down to the pit. If that doesn't remind you of what happens to Satan then nothing I say will.


    2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


    2 Thessalonians:


    "exalteth himself above all that is called God"
    "shewing himself that he is God"


    Isaiah:


    "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God"
    "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High"


    Types or foreshadows are used in scripture. It is common for someone to have done something which really points forward to someone else fulfilling a prophecy. There have been many foreshadows of Christ, and there are many of Satan. The King of Babylon may have been a real human being or might have literally been Satan, but whoever it was they did some of the things that are speaking of things Satan will do in the end times. Both tried/will try to be God but it will be Satan who will do it on a far grander, and worldwide scale.


    Ezekiel 28:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
    Ezekiel 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:


    Here another man (or possibly Satan himself by another name) is the foreshadow of the endtimes Satan. Again, the same type of thing occurring. Things repeat over and over to teach us!


    Ezekiel 28:3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
    Ezekiel 28:4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
    Ezekiel 28:5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
    Ezekiel 28:6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
    Ezekiel 28:7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
    Ezekiel 28:8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.


    Remember Isaiah?


    Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
    Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.



    Ezekiel 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
    Ezekiel 28:10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
    Ezekiel 28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
    Ezekiel 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
    Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
    Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.


    How many people were in the garden of God and had been an anointed Cherub?


    Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
    Ezekiel 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
    Ezekiel 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
    Ezekiel 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
    Ezekiel 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.


    Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

    This isnt literal lightning but a falling or shooting star. One that has that long tail of light that appears like a bolt of lightning, which also denotes how bright he is, or at least how bright he likes to think he is.


    lightning
    796

    796 astrape {as-trap-ay'}

    from 797; TDNT - 1:505,86; n f

    AV - lightning 8, light shining 1; 9

    1) lightning
    1a) of the gleam of a lamp


    "the gleam of a lamp"

    Revelation 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
    Revelation 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

    "burning as it were a lamp"

    Christ himself documenting satans future fall.


    Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
    Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
    Rev 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.

    I believe that "morning star" is a title many can have not just one person. It's a title that means a person is important and has authority. Lucifer was someone who was a morning star but he fell and cannot be called this any longer.



    Some men throughout history have matched some of these things but only one being fits them all and that is Satan, Lucifer or whatever name you want to use. Only that fallen Cherub is the one this is fully directed at.
     
  2. CodyFaith

    CodyFaith Saved by His grace Supporter

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    It says "Is this the man that made the earth tremble and did shake kingdoms?"

    Satan is not a man. And it's not written poetically or symbolic because the rest of it isn't.

    So I don't know what to think really.
     
  3. Deadworm

    Deadworm Well-Known Member

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    Rhe OP's claim about Lucifer as Satan is decisively refuted in this clear article which expresses the overwhelming scholarly consensus:

    Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12-17

    If you want serious Bible students to take your claim seriously, engage with this article's plea to take Isaiah 14 in its context.
     
  4. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Won with the world is a loss. Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Yes he is. He is not a human man but he is very much a man. Gabriel is a man also as his name means "man of God".
     
  5. John Hyperspace

    John Hyperspace UnKnown ReMember

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    This is all called "begging the question"; you are basically "backward engineering" your presumed conclusion into your propositions.
     
  6. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Won with the world is a loss. Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    That hardly disputes what I have clearly laid out and proven. What ever happened to actually engaging something and trying to dispute it the proper way?
     
  7. John Hyperspace

    John Hyperspace UnKnown ReMember

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    Gibbur doesn't mean "man" it means "might": BUT Gabriel is called a man: Daniel 9:21. I'm not understanding what you mean by "a man but not a human man"
     
  8. John Hyperspace

    John Hyperspace UnKnown ReMember

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    The proper way to dispute begging the question is to point out the error. What more can I do? Should I illustrate the entire post in reply?
     
  9. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Won with the world is a loss. Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    I never brought up the word "Gibbur"

    Again, his name in the Hebrew mean "man of God"


    A man as in a male being not a man as in a human man.
     
  10. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Won with the world is a loss. Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    I have made many points and given evidence that Lucifer and Satan are one in the same. Disprove it if you think you can but tossing around a supposed fallacy means nothing without proving it.
     
  11. John Hyperspace

    John Hyperspace UnKnown ReMember

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    Here is one example of what "begging the question" means (I'm not going to do this for every line in your post): you say "The Hebrew word for Satan's original name is Heylel" and what you are doing is using your proposition (in the thread title: Isaiah 14 is about Satan) to draw the same conclusion. Your conclusion is masquerading as a proposition. Do you understand why pointing at Haylel in Isaiah 14 and saying "That is Satan's original name" is begging the question "Is Haylel a reference to Satan?"
     
  12. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Won with the world is a loss. Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    If that was all there was then fine but I compare the two and their actions and show some undeniable similarities. So prove Lucifer is not Satan and please explain why they do and desire the same things even down to being cast into a pit, a reference to Rev 20 of course.
     
  13. John Hyperspace

    John Hyperspace UnKnown ReMember

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    Yes you did when you said "Gabriel means 'man of God'"

    Okay apparently you're not aware. The name "Gabriel" is from the Hebrew "Gibbur" "i" "el" What do you think the Hebrew "gibbur" means? Because that very word is the heart of the construct, which you are claiming means "man" when it doesn't. It means "might": the Hebrew words for man is "adam" or "ish" or "enosh"

    You can't just state some bad translation and suddenly it becomes true.

    Okay and how do you propose Gabriel is "a male" but not "human"? What makes him "male" even though there is no hint of the Hebrew for "male" anywhere near anything you're citing.
     
  14. CodyFaith

    CodyFaith Saved by His grace Supporter

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    The word man is used differently when referring to Gabriel.

    It's similar to when Abraham saw 3 men, one of those men being God. God is not a man, yet it referred to God as a man in that instance. It's used differently than saying he is an actual man, because of course they aren't.

    But in Isaiah it's used to refer to an actual man. "Is this the man?"
     
  15. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Won with the world is a loss. Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Additionally I refer to this:

    01966 heylel {hay-lale'}
    from 01984 (in the sense of brightness); TWOT - 499a; n m
    AV - Lucifer 1; 1

    Lucifer = "light-bearer"
    1) shining one, morning star, Lucifer
    1a) of the king of Babylon and Satan (fig.)
    2) (TWOT) 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon

    Then proceed to show why and how this is accurate.
     
  16. John Hyperspace

    John Hyperspace UnKnown ReMember

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    It isn't my job to prove something; it is yours to prove your proposition. There is nothing that can be done about begging the question but to point out the error and either the speaker understands the problem with his position, or, he doesn't. In all of the instances you're mentioning you're begging the question.
     
  17. John Hyperspace

    John Hyperspace UnKnown ReMember

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    This tells you how the word is translated in the AV. Nothing more, nothing less. It is begging the question.

    That is true.
    That is begging the question.

    That is true.
     
  18. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Won with the world is a loss. Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    That's called a root fallacy as the Hebrew word Gabriel is a different word than "Gibbur"

    Gabriel is H1403 but "Gibbur" is H1397


    I'm aware that this is a root fallacy. "gibbur" is one of trwo root words. The two form a new word so referencing the meaning of "gibbur" is an error.



    There is nothing wrong with the definition.


    All angels are male, so much so they are often confused as being human males but in fact they are angelic males.
     
  19. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Won with the world is a loss. Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Angels are "actual men"...
     
  20. John Hyperspace

    John Hyperspace UnKnown ReMember

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    Okay there's no reason to continue here. Show me "gibbur" used anywhere as meaning "man" (except in that bad translation you're pushing) and we'll talk. Otherwise, not only are you doing nothing but begging the question, now you're equivocating, and defining words on an arbitrary whim.

    If I ask you "Is your dog, male?" you determine this, how? If a baby pops out and the doctor says, "It's a male" how does he know? Do you understand? How do you determine a "male" "spirit"? What is the Hebrew word being translated as "male"?