Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

Major1 · Dec 20, 2016

Douggg said:
No it does not refute anything as those believers are not referred to as the church in the text.

In addition to people from all nations, the Jews, Israel, will become Christians once their perceived messiah betrays them. Which the rapture can happen anytime between now and when the Antichrist commits the act of betrayal.

There are three events to take place that wiil influence many persons to become Christians, yet miss the rapture.
1. Gog/Magog, the end of Islam, many muslims will then become Christians
2. The rapture event takes place and many of those left behind become Christians
3. The abomination is setup to be worship and many person will become Christians then

The two witnesses will also be testifying during the first 1260 days of the 7 years - the gospel message and not to trust the Antichrist person as being the true messiah, and to flee into the mountains when the abomination of desolation is setup to be worship.

I would also say that we need to remember that there will be a 7 year peace treaty in place.

Now, for there to be a peace treaty, logic and common sense says that there must then be a war/conflict = Ezek 38???

Douggg · Dec 20, 2016

Major1 said:
I would also say that we need to remember that there will be a 7 year peace treaty in place.

Now, for there to be a peace treaty, logic and common sense says that there must then be a war/conflict = Ezek 38???

Major, I would like for you to look at Ezekiel 39:4 and 39:17-20. There are two feasts on dead bodies, in Ezekiel 39 for two different events.. The first is the feast on Gog's army in 39:4, then the detailed cleanup of the land, followed by a 7 year period.

Then in 39:17-20 there is a second feast on dead bodies - which is the Armageddon feast. The 7 years following Gog's destruction is the 70th week. The muslim armies and nations, as well as the end of Islam, will already have been done before the 7 years begin.... so there is no necessity for a 7 years peace plan, Israel's enemies will have been destroyed, and she will think that she is on the doorstep of the messianic age.

What covenant is in Daniel 9, that Daniel was praying about his people transgressing? It is the Mt. Sinai covenant. That is the covenant that will be confirmed for the 7 year cycle that is in Deuteronomy 31:9-13. The process to confirm the covenant is the reading of the covenant, the law, to the nation of Israel that God promised the land of Israel as being theirs forever.

Can you not see the how appropriate that would be following Gog/Magog which the attack will be to take the land away from the Jews?

Concerning the rapture. It might take place before the 70th week begins. Or maybe after it begins, but sometime before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation in Daniel 8:11-13. Why is it called the transgression of Desolation? Because the Antichrist will be a Jew - who will transgress the Mt. Sinai covenant - that he had just confirmed 3 years 3 months, thereabouts, earlier to begin the 70th week.

I am giving you information that they have not taught you at DTS.

Major1 · Dec 20, 2016

keras said:
The desperation of some to fit in a rapture, somewhere - anywhere, makes people commit terrible errors.
Are Christians not written in the Book of life? Rev 13:8
Are Christians not God's holy people? 1 Peter 2:10
Are Christians not Jesus' Chosen people? John 15:16
Are Christians not the Children of God's Promise? Romans 9:8
Are Christians not the Israel of God? Galatians 6:16
A resounding YES to all of the above!

Your idea of a false Messiah coming to Jewish Israel, isn't Biblical. You give no scriptural support for any of your assertions and guesses above. None of it is correct.
Having to fit in a rapture to heaven in the last days, colors all of your thinking and leads to a completely wrong view of what God has planned to happen.
A big step forward for all is to know the truth that every true Christian believer, is now the Israel of God.
The Jews rejected Jesus and now we Christians are the inheritors of God's promises to Israel, WE are God's people and we have the privilege of being His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, and displaying His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8

Rev. 13:8........
SAINTS are in view in Revelation 13:8- BUT they ARE NOT the Church.

1 Peter 2:10.....
The chosen race is not black or white or red or yellow or brown. The chosen race is a new people from all the peoples—all the colors and cultures—who are now aliens and strangers among in the world. See verse 11, "Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers . . . "

What gives us our identity is not color or culture. But chosenness. Christians are not the white race; they are the chosen race. Christians are not the black race; they are the chosen race. We are the black chosen and the white chosen and the yellow chosen and the red chosen. Out from all the races we have been chosen—one at a time, not on the basis of belonging to any group.

John 15:16......
Replacement Theology demands that the church takes the place of Israel.
God gave Abraham an eternal and everlasting promise, that from his seed would come a great
nation that would always endure. God said that that nation, Israel, would become so great in the
earth that anyone who blessed Israel and the Jews, God would bless. And anyone that cursed
Israel and the Jews, God would curse. This promise came with no expiration date.

Romans 9:8........
Romans 9 comes after Romans 8 for this utterly crucial reason: It shows that the word of God’s covenant with Israel has not failed, because it is grounded in God’s sovereign, electing mercy. Therefore, the promises to the true Israel and the promises of Romans 8 will stand! That is the gospel of Romans 9. The promises purchased by the blood of Christ will be performed by the sovereign power of God.

Major1 · Dec 20, 2016

Douggg said:
Major, I would like for you to look at Ezekiel 39:4 and 39:17-20. There are two feasts on dead bodies, in Ezekiel 39 for two different events.. The first is the feast on Gog's army in 39:4, then the detailed cleanup of the land, followed by a 7 year period.

Then in 39:17-20 there is a second feast on dead bodies - which is the Armageddon feast. The 7 years following Gog's destruction is the 70th week. The muslim armies and nations, as well as the end of Islam, will already have been done before the 7 years begin.... so there is no necessity for a 7 years peace plan, Israel's enemies will have been destroyed, and she will think that she is on the doorstep of the messianic age.

What covenant is in Daniel 9, that Daniel was praying about his people transgressing? It is the Mt. Sinai covenant. That is the covenant that will be confirmed for the 7 year cycle that is in Deuteronomy 31:9-13. The process to confirm the covenant is the reading of the covenant, the law, to the nation of Israel that God promised the land of Israel as being theirs forever.

Can you not see the how appropriate that would be following Gog/Magog which the attack will be to take the land away from the Jews?

Concerning the rapture. It might take place before the 70th week begins. Or maybe after it begins, but sometime before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation in Daniel 8:11-13. Why is it called the transgression of Desolation? Because the Antichrist will be a Jew - who will transgress the Mt. Sinai covenant - that he had just confirmed 3 years 3 months, thereabouts, earlier to begin the 70th week.

I am giving you information that they have not taught you at DTS.

Thank you Doug. I did not just attend DTS but that is another story. However, Dr. Walvoord was maybe the very best Bible teacher. I know he was the best one I ever saw.

I understand what you are proposing and that is Ezek. 39:1 goes up to verse 16 and it is talking about the Gog/Magog war. However you are saying that in verse 17 onward where God says, “thus son of man” it is another prophecy and it talking about the aftermath of the Armageddon war.

Some people believe that Ez. 38 opens the Tribulation Period and Ez. 39 close it at Armageddon.
When it is read I can see how that could be thought of. Personally I believe that chapter 38 and 39 are all one event of Gog & Magog.

When? I believe it will be before the Tribulation Peroid and very close to the Rapture, probably before it.

I have thought for a long time that the A/C will be an apostate Jew.

You did not specify the verse where you asked about the Mt. Sinia covenant so I am assuming it is 9:27.

The first two Hebrew words are literally, “shall cause a covenant to be strong”...whose root can mean “prevail, have strength, be great, have stability, make firm.” The potency of this wording may imply the Jews are forced to accept the agreement because of the antichrist’s superior power.

I am not the expert in any way but I do not see a reference to the Mt. Sinai covenant.
It appears that it will be a binding/strong agreement between Israel and the A/C.

keras · Dec 20, 2016

The determination of those who believe in a rapture removal to heaven for them is commendable, but very unfortunate.
Their view of what will happen, is fixated on a rapture, something that isn't actually prophesied and conflicts with what God does plan for His people.
New and Old testament teaching is that God has always kept for Himself, a group of faithful people. The clearest demonstration of this is when all the original Israelites of the Exodus died in the desert, excepting the few faithful; Moses, Caleb, etc.
So to think that all ethnic Israel will be saved, as some think to mean the Jewish State of Israel, is ridiculous. Many prophesies tell of only a remnant, the few true Christian Jews will be saved.
Jesus made it clear in His Parable of the vineyard:
Matthew 21:33-46 Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who planted a vineyard and put a wall around it, built a watchtower and rented it out to vine-growers then went on a journey. When the harvest time approached, he sent his slaves to the vine-growers to receive his produce. The vine-growers took his slaves and beat one, and killed another, and stoned a third. Again he sent another group of slaves larger than the first; and they did the same thing to them. But afterward he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' But when the vine-growers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' They took him, and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. Therefore when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers? They said to Him, "He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons. Jesus said to them: Did you never read in the Scriptures; The Stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. This is the Lord’s doing and it is amazing to us.
Therefore I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, who will produce the fruit of it. And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust. When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them. When they sought to seize Him, they feared the people, because they considered Him to be a prophet.

In this perfectly clear parable, which is paralleled by Isaiah 5:1-7, Jesus prophesied that the Jews, as a nation, were going to be replaced by something new; faithful Christians who do what they can to spread the Gospel and fulfilling their appointed tasks.

"He will bring those wretches to a wretched end" did happen in 70 AD. But the Jewish nation still rejects Jesus and they face another judgement. Isaiah 6:11-13

The entire leadership of the apostolic church and most of the Elders in the churches were Jewish. They became Christians who stopped keeping the Sabbath and abandoned the Mosaic system of Judaism. They began worshipping God on their seventh day of the working week: the Lord's day.

Jesus went to the Jews first but they rejected Him as the Messiah. The Kingdom is now open to both Jew and Gentile equally. Everyone must believe, repent, confess Jesus as Lord and be baptized for the remission of their sins. There is only one way to get saved! Jews have no special route to heaven that gentiles do not have. They all must believe and become true Christian believers to be saved.

Paul always began his evangelism in a new city by preaching in the Jewish synagogues. When the Jews rejected the gospel, he turned to the gentiles: But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming. Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said: It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; but since you Jews repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. Acts 13:45-46

1 Peter 2:7-10 So for you who have faith, the Cornerstone [Jesus] is of great value, but for the faithless it is a stone they trip over. They trip and fall because they refuse to believe the Word and this is the fate appointed for them.

But you Christians are now the chosen race, a royal priesthood, a dedicated people, a nation claimed by God for His own. We are called out of darkness into His glorious Light. Once Christians were not a people, now you are God’s people…..
Notice that the; you are a chosen, holy nation of priests, that was originally applied to ethnic Israel at the foot of Mt. Sinai, Exodus 19:6, is now applied to Christians to the exclusion of ethnic Israel, unless they too, become Christian.
The fate appointed for them: Jeremiah 12:14 has the clearest prophecy of God’s intentions for the apostate Jewish State of Israel.: …I shall uproot the evil neighbours from My Land and also Judah as well. But if they learn the ways of My Christian people, their families will join My people there.

Major1 · Dec 20, 2016

keras said:
The determination of those who believe in a rapture removal to heaven for them is commendable, but very unfortunate.
Their view of what will happen, is fixated on a rapture, something that isn't actually prophesied and conflicts with what God does plan for His people.
New and Old testament teaching is that God has always kept for Himself, a group of faithful people. The clearest demonstration of this is when all the original Israelites of the Exodus died in the desert, excepting the few faithful; Moses, Caleb, etc.
So to think that all ethnic Israel will be saved, as some think to mean the Jewish State of Israel, is ridiculous. Many prophesies tell of only a remnant, the few true Christian Jews will be saved.
Jesus made it clear in His Parable of the vineyard:
Matthew 21:33-46 Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who planted a vineyard and put a wall around it, built a watchtower and rented it out to vine-growers then went on a journey. When the harvest time approached, he sent his slaves to the vine-growers to receive his produce. The vine-growers took his slaves and beat one, and killed another, and stoned a third. Again he sent another group of slaves larger than the first; and they did the same thing to them. But afterward he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' But when the vine-growers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' They took him, and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. Therefore when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers? They said to Him, "He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons. Jesus said to them: Did you never read in the Scriptures; The Stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. This is the Lord’s doing and it is amazing to us.
Therefore I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, who will produce the fruit of it. And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust. When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them. When they sought to seize Him, they feared the people, because they considered Him to be a prophet.

In this perfectly clear parable, which is paralleled by Isaiah 5:1-7, Jesus prophesied that the Jews, as a nation, were going to be replaced by something new; faithful Christians who do what they can to spread the Gospel and fulfilling their appointed tasks.

"He will bring those wretches to a wretched end" did happen in 70 AD. But the Jewish nation still rejects Jesus and they face another judgement. Isaiah 6:11-13

The entire leadership of the apostolic church and most of the Elders in the churches were Jewish. They became Christians who stopped keeping the Sabbath and abandoned the Mosaic system of Judaism. They began worshipping God on their seventh day of the working week: the Lord's day.

Jesus went to the Jews first but they rejected Him as the Messiah. The Kingdom is now open to both Jew and Gentile equally. Everyone must believe, repent, confess Jesus as Lord and be baptized for the remission of their sins. There is only one way to get saved! Jews have no special route to heaven that gentiles do not have. They all must believe and become true Christian believers to be saved.

Paul always began his evangelism in a new city by preaching in the Jewish synagogues. When the Jews rejected the gospel, he turned to the gentiles: But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming. Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said: It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; but since you Jews repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. Acts 13:45-46

1 Peter 2:7-10 So for you who have faith, the Cornerstone [Jesus] is of great value, but for the faithless it is a stone they trip over. They trip and fall because they refuse to believe the Word and this is the fate appointed for them.

But you Christians are now the chosen race, a royal priesthood, a dedicated people, a nation claimed by God for His own. We are called out of darkness into His glorious Light. Once Christians were not a people, now you are God’s people…..
Notice that the; you are a chosen, holy nation of priests, that was originally applied to ethnic Israel at the foot of Mt. Sinai, Exodus 19:6, is now applied to Christians to the exclusion of ethnic Israel, unless they too, become Christian.
The fate appointed for them: Jeremiah 12:14 has the clearest prophecy of God’s intentions for the apostate Jewish State of Israel.: …I shall uproot the evil neighbours from My Land and also Judah as well. But if they learn the ways of My Christian people, their families will join My people there.

The parable you quoted in Matthew is perfectly correct.

We are in agreement that the church is a chosen generation and a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people.

The church is that holy nation......BUT that does not mean that the church has replace and it Israel went away and does not exist.

The root of Replacement Theology is Satan’s hatred of the Jewish people. Satan hates the Jews with a passion for several reasons:
1). God chose them to be His witness to the world.
2).Through them God gave the world the Bible.
3). Through them God gave the world the Messiah.
4.) God has promised that He will save a great remnant of them.
5). God has promised that through that remnant He will bless all the nations of the world during the Millennial reign of Jesus.

Satan is determined to destroy every Jew on planet earth so that God cannot keep His promises to them.

Replacement Theology that you are proposing emphasizes Israel’s disobedience to God and their subsequent justifiable punishment by God and their displacement as the people of God.

To put it another way, “The Chosen People of Israel have been replaced by the Church because the Jewish nation acted wickedly and has forfeited the right to be the people of God.”

You may or may not be aware and you may or may not admit it if you are, but it is this teaching that early on caused the Church to be infected with a virulent form of anti-Semitism. You see, for almost 2,000 years the Church at large, both Catholic and Protestant, has maintained that due to the fact that the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah, then killed Him, God poured out His wrath on them in 70 AD, destroying their nation and their Temple, and in the process, He washed His hands of them, leaving them with no purpose whatsoever as a nation.

In short, because of their continuing disobedience and their rejection of Jesus, God has replaced Israel with the Church, transferring the blessings promised to Israel to the Church.

In direct contradiction of Replacement Theology, the Bible teaches that the Jews have never been replaced with the Church by God because of their unbelief. In Romans 3 Paul asserts point blank that their rejection of Jesus has not nullified God’s faithfulness to the promises He has made to them:
1) What advantage has the Jew? [The Church: “None!”]
2) Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.
3) What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it? [The Church: “Yes!”]
4) May it never be! Rather, let God be found true though every man be found a liar…

Douggg · Dec 20, 2016

Major1 said:
I understand what you are proposing and that is Ezek. 39:1 goes up to verse 16 and it is talking about the Gog/Magog war. However you are saying that in verse 17 onward where God says, “thus son of man” it is another prophecy and it talking about the aftermath of the Armageddon war.

Some people believe that Ez. 38 opens the Tribulation Period and Ez. 39 close it at Armageddon.
When it is read I can see how that could be thought of. Personally I believe that chapter 38 and 39 are all one event of Gog & Magog.

Hi Major, I would says Ezekiel 38-39:16 is one event...just preceding the 70th week. And Ezekiel 39:17-29 is another event, ending the 70th week.

if you compare Ezekiel 17-19 with Revelation 19:17-18. And then look at verse 21, compared to Psalms 2....

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

..... about the Lord setting his glory among the heathen, and compare that with Pslams2:8 following the opening verses of why do the heathen rage and image a vain thing (to make war on Jesus at Armageddon)... 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Those go together, Pslams 2, Armageddon, and Jesus setting his glory among the heathen, to rule them with a rod of iron.

There's even more evidence. When we look at Matthew 24:31 about the angels set out to gather the elect and compare that with Ezekiel 39: about not have left any of the scattered house of Israel, none left in the nations.... it is pretty conclusive to me that Ezekiel 39:17-29 is at the closure of the 70th week and Jesus having returned.

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

Douggg · Dec 20, 2016

Major1 said:
You did not specify the verse where you asked about the Mt. Sinia covenant so I am assuming it is 9:27.

In the opening part of Daniel 9, Daniel is confessing that his people Israel transgressed the covenant made in the desert. That establishes "the" covenant to be confirmed as the Mt. Sinai covenant - as that is the only covenant talked about in Daniel 9.

Here are the verses...

4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;

5 We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments:

6 Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.

7 O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee.

8 O Lord, to us belongeth confusion of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against thee.

9 To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;

10 Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets.

11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him. [Major, the law of Moses is another name for the Mt. Sinai covenant, because the laws that God gave them were transmitted through Moses]

12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.

13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.

14 Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.

15 And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.

Major, the covenant in verse 4, the law of Moses, and reference to God bringing them out of Egypt - is all in reference to the Mt. Sinai covenant. I would like to point to "transgressed" in verse 11. It is transgressed because it was violation of the terms of the covenant - which to transgress those terms of keeping God's law, the children of Israel had to be a partner in the covenant.

Now when we look, in comparison, at the little horn stopping the daily sacrifice in Daniel 8 - it is also by reason of transgression. And the result is called the transgression of desolation - which is the little horn person (who at the time will have become the King of Israel, illegitimate, the Antichrist) going into the temple sitting claiming to be God, in 2thessalonians2:4.

It is a transgression because the person will be a Jew - a partner in the covenant, that he violates by stopping the daily sacrifice, claiming to be God.

The confirmation of "the" covenant for 7 years - it is talking about the Mt. Sinai covenant.

Which another piece of information you may not be aware of is that the new covenant in Jeremiah 31, that Christians know to be in Jesus..... the Jews (Judaism) don't look at it that way.... but as a "renewal" of the existing Mt. Sinai covenant. So the prince who shall come confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant will reinforce what they already believe is going to happen - although they (the Jews) are wrong about it.

keras · Dec 20, 2016

Major1 said:
The church is that holy nation......BUT that does not mean that the church has replace and it Israel went away and does not exist.

It is better stated that every righteous believer comprise the holy nation of God.
The Jewish State of Israel exists, but they are no more that any other nation on earth. God HAS helped them, in order to maintain their visible presence, while He works with His real chosen ones.

Major1 said:
Replacement Theology that you are proposing emphasizes Israel’s disobedience to God and their subsequent justifiable punishment by God and their displacement as the people of God.

I reiterate: Jews have exactly the same chance of salvation as anybody else. Nationality no longer counts, we Christians do not displace Jews, they choose their fate.

Major1 said:
In short, because of their continuing disobedience and their rejection of Jesus, God has replaced Israel with the Church, transferring the blessings promised to Israel to the Church.

God's Blessings to His people still apply. Call them God's people, the holy people, the seed of Abraham, the Israel of God, there is no difference, just the one people from the beginning to the end.
This is where your problem lies. The rapture theory demands a separation between Israel and Christians. Like the idea of a rapture to heaven, it isn't Biblical, isn't part of God's Plan and will never happen.
We Christians will inherit all the holy Land, Psalms 37:29, it is you and me that will praise Jesus as He stands on Mt Zion, Revelation 7:9 and we will be His people; bearing the fruit of the Spirit. Colossians 1:10-2

Major1 · Dec 20, 2016

Douggg said:
In the opening part of Daniel 9, Daniel is confessing that his people Israel transgressed the covenant made in the desert. That establishes "the" covenant to be confirmed as the Mt. Sinai covenant - as that is the only covenant talked about in Daniel 9.

Here are the verses...

4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;

5 We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments:

6 Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.

7 O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee.

8 O Lord, to us belongeth confusion of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against thee.

9 To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;

10 Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets.

11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him. [Major, the law of Moses is another name for the Mt. Sinai covenant, because the laws that God gave them were transmitted through Moses]

12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.

13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.

14 Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.

15 And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.

Major, the covenant in verse 4, the law of Moses, and reference to God bringing them out of Egypt - is all in reference to the Mt. Sinai covenant. I would like to point to "transgressed" in verse 11. It is transgressed because it was violation of the terms of the covenant - which to transgress those terms of keeping God's law, the children of Israel had to be a partner in the covenant.

Now when we look, in comparison, at the little horn stopping the daily sacrifice in Daniel 8 - it is also by reason of transgression. And the result is called the transgression of desolation - which is the little horn person (who at the time will have become the King of Israel, illegitimate, the Antichrist) going into the temple sitting claiming to be God, in 2thessalonians2:4.

It is a transgression because the person will be a Jew - a partner in the covenant, that he violates by stopping the daily sacrifice, claiming to be God.

The confirmation of "the" covenant for 7 years - it is talking about the Mt. Sinai covenant.

Which another piece of information you may not be aware of is that the new covenant in Jeremiah 31, that Christians know to be in Jesus..... the Jews (Judaism) don't look at it that way.... but as a "renewal" of the existing Mt. Sinai covenant. So the prince who shall come confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant will reinforce what they already believe is going to happen - although they (the Jews) are wrong about it.

Thank you for that. Of course there is another "covenant" in 9:27 but I see where you are coming from. And thank you for the information on the Law of Moses.

You are saying that the Mount Sinai covenant commanded Israel to keep His commands, and to never make a peace treaty/covenant with any of nations that lived within her land..........correct???

Her land was never to be divided up and given to foreigners! Not only will Israel break that covenant but already has done just that in giving up God's Land for a peace that will never happen.

Transgressing yes, but more wickedly, Israel continues to reject their true Messiah, Jesus. The bible prophesies that one day Israel will receive a false messiah instead---the Antichrist---who will lead in confirming the final peace treaty according to Daniel 9, and if you look it up, you will find that there is an event called the " Geneva treaty" which is a very close type.

Is that what you were referring to?

Major1 · Dec 20, 2016

keras said:
It is better stated that every righteous believer comprise the holy nation of God.
The Jewish State of Israel exists, but they are no more that any other nation on earth. God HAS helped them, in order to maintain their visible presence, while He works with His real chosen ones.

I reiterate: Jews have exactly the same chance of salvation as anybody else. Nationality no longer counts, we Christians do not displace Jews, they choose their fate.

God's Blessings to His people still apply. Call them God's people, the holy people, the seed of Abraham, the Israel of God, there is no difference, just the one people from the beginning to the end.
This is where your problem lies. The rapture theory demands a separation between Israel and Christians. Like the idea of a rapture to heaven, it isn't Biblical, isn't part of God's Plan and will never happen.
We Christians will inherit all the holy Land, Psalms 37:29, it is you and me that will praise Jesus as He stands on Mt Zion, Revelation 7:9 and we will be His people; bearing the fruit of the Spirit. Colossians 1:10-2

Honestly my brother, I do not have any problems at all. Well maybe my left knee and a dog that chases squirrels but never catches any of them.

It is NOT the Rapture that demands a separation of the Church and Israel, the Bible makes that separation itself.

You are just so entrenched in Replacement Theology that you can not see the trees on the hillside.
In your replacement theology, the Church replaces Israel such that Israel has no redemptive future.

MY dear brother, the Church is made up of Jews who have been physically called out of the nations, but also spiritually called out from unbelieving Israel, and Gentiles who have been spiritually called out of the nations to worship the God of Israel.

But one does not replace the other one. I have over the past week or so quoted you verse after verse which clearly say that God has not forsaken Israel. So you problem is not with me posting those verses but with God who wanted them placed into the Bible.

The Church has not replaced national Israel. National Israel never was a spiritual body of people, but merely a nation of saved and unsaved people, like others nations. And God has a future program of prophecy to fulfill for that nation. Paul considered himself part of remnant Israel (Romans 11:1-5), part of Christ (Romans 9:3), and part of the Church (Ephesians 5:29-30). This shows that the Church, the Body of Christ and remnant Israel are synonymous.

Douggg · Dec 20, 2016

Major1 said:
Thank you for that. Of course there is another "covenant" in 9:27 but I see where you are coming from. And thank you for the information on the Law of Moses.

You are saying that the Mount Sinai covenant commanded Israel to keep His commands, and to never make a peace treaty/covenant with any of nations that lived within her land..........correct???

No, I am saying there is no peace treaty agreement involved at all.

The entire notion of a 7 year peace agreement is conjecture that has become popularized repeated over and over that people just assume that it is correct. It is has been programmed into peoples minds that the interpretation of confirming the covenant for 7 years is a peace treaty.

There will be no need for any kind of peace treaty for one thing - following Gog/Magog because Israel's enemies in the middle east will have all been destroyed and Islam over.

The Mt. Sinai covenant is not a peace treaty, never was. It was a covenant between the children of Israel and God, that they would be his nation and He would be their God. And under the terms of the covenant they would be blessed if they obeyed his laws - or they would be cursed if they disobeyed his laws in going after other gods.

Transgressing yes, but more wickedly, Israel continues to reject their true Messiah, Jesus. The bible prophesies that one day Israel will receive a false messiah instead---the Antichrist---who will lead in confirming the final peace treaty according to Daniel 9, and if you look it up, you will find that there is an event called the " Geneva treaty" which is a very close type.

Is that what you were referring to?

No, the bible doesn't say peace treaty. Bible commentators have said peace treaty.

There is no peace treaty of any kind involved regarding confirmation of the covenant for 7 years. It is misdirection looking for a 7 year peace treaty to happen. Back in 2011, it was the quartet, then the Oslo accords, and so on, people looking for a 7 year peace treaty.

That the person stops the daily sacrifice in the middle part of the week, is not because he breaks a peace treaty, but because he transgresses the Mt. Sinai covenant by claiming to have achieved God-hood.

The war that he subsequently makes is on the saints, worldwide, and convinces the kings of the earth to make war on Jesus at the very end. But not because there was any kind of peace treaty ever involved.

And to end this post on a positive note....lest we lose focus on who we have hope in.

keras · Dec 20, 2016

Major1 said:
The Church has not replaced national Israel

Obviously not. That isn't my contention.
At present, we have Christian believers in every nation, incl Israel and the State of Israel occupies a part of the holy Land.
Bible prophecy tells us there is coming a dramatic change to the world and the Lord is coming in a judgement of fire. Isaiah 66:15-17, Zephaniah 3:8, 2 Peter 3:7
Here is God's future program for Judah:
Isaiah 3:1-9 The Lord is about to strip Judah of every prop and support, all of their leaders, generals and counsellors will lose their positions. I shall appoint inexperienced people to positions of authority. Oppression and arrogance will stalk the Land and there will be severe shortages of food and water.
Judah is brought low, for in word and deed, they defy the Lord. The look on their faces testifies against them. Like Sodom, they parade their sins. Woe betide them, they have earned the disaster that will strike them.

Isaiah 3:10-11 Happy are the righteous. [Christians] All goes well with them. Woe to the wicked, disaster is upon them. My people, those who guide you are leading you astray.

Isaiah 3:13-26 The Lord stands up to judge His people. He opens the indictment against the elders and leaders; it is you who have ruined My vineyard. You have crushed My people and oppressed the poor.
You women of Zion; I will take away your finery, instead of coifed hair, you will be bald.
Your men will fall by the sword of the Lord, as in battle. Judah’s defenses are stripped bare, laid flat to the ground. [Isaiah 22:2 & 8…your slain did not fall by the sword, as in battle….and the mainstays of Judah’s defenses are removed.]
The entire Middle East area is prophesied to be cleared and cleansed. Jeremiah 10:18, Ezekiel 30:2-5, Isaiah 22:14
THEN all of the holy Land will be repopulated by the Lord's people, true Christians. Isaiah 66:18b-21, Ezekiel 34:11-21, Revelation 7:1-14 Great will be that time!

keras · Dec 20, 2016

Major1 said:
MY dear brother, the Church is made up of Jews who have been physically called out of the nations, but also spiritually called out from unbelieving Israel, and Gentiles who have been spiritually called out of the nations to worship the God of Israel.

Correct, and so as 1 Peter 2:9-10 says: Christians are the called out ones...... who before were not a people, but are now the people of God.
So the true Church is the holy people of God and ethnic Israel is no longer of any more significance than any other nation.
Bible prophecy does NOT say ethnic Israel is to be eventually saved, on the contrary their punishment to come soon, as I post above, is more severe for them. Only a remnant of Jewish true believers will survive.

Put simply: the pretentious idea of the Church going to heaven, while Israel suffers tribulation, is quite wrong and not what God has said will happen.

Riberra · Dec 20, 2016

Douggg said:
No, I am saying there is no peace treaty agreement involved at all.

The entire notion of a 7 year peace agreement is conjecture that has become popularized repeated over and over that people just assume that it is correct. It is has been programmed into peoples minds that the interpretation of confirming the covenant for 7 years is a peace treaty.

You are right.

Here something i have find who talk about the origin of the 7 years peace treaty theory between the Antichrist and Israel and the group who is pushing it...
Note that i am not in agreement about their claim that The Catholic Church is The AC / The little horn/Son of Perdition, or that there will be no AC/Beast taking literally power over the Earth during the last 42 months preceding the Coming of Jesus .....

But i believe that Daniel 9:23-27 have nothing to do with the Little Horn described in Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 who is the Beast described in Revelation 13:3-9 and Revelation 11:7 who will take power during 42 months ---3 1/2 years preceding the coming of Jesus.

70th Week Of Daniel Fulfillment

The 70th Week Of Daniel Deception

Understanding the seven years of the 70th week of Daniel is very important, because of the truth about their fulfillment, and the deceptions which are based on them.

The truth is that the 70th week of Daniel started when Messiah was baptized at age 30, and anointed by the Spirit.

Messiah’s ministry took place during the first half of the 7 years; so it’s not possible that it is yet future.

The truth is that the covenant of Daniel 9:27 is not just a 7-year covenant, as we’ve been led to believe.

It is the everlasting covenant, the same one that Abraham was saved by, as he believed by faith that the Father would provide a Lamb to atone for his sins.

The truth is that Messiah and His Disciples fulfilled the 70th week of Daniel, from 27-34 A.D., when they confirmed with the Jews for 7 years that He is the promised Messiah, who ratified the everlasting covenant with His blood as the Passover Lamb.

Messiah confirmed that He was the promised Messiah through His miracles, His wisdom, His knowledge of the Hebrew letters, His fulfillment of prophecy, and by His resurrection.

After Messiah’s ascension, the Apostles continued to confirm to the Jews that He is the promised Messiah, by proclaiming how He fulfilled prophecy and how He rose again.

On Pentecost, 3,000 Jews were saved from the witness of the Apostles being filled with the Spirit, and preaching the Gospel in their languages. The Church of Messiah is built on a foundation of Jews, who accepted Messiah as their Savior.

Paul proclaimed Jew first, and so it was. The seven years ended when the Jewish leaders stoned the Apostle Stephen to death, when he proclaimed that they had killed their promised Messiah.

Immediately after Stephen’s death, the Gospel was also shared with the Gentiles. The disciples were scattered throughout Judea and preached the Gospel. Philip was led to the Ethiopian Eunuch, who was saved. Saul was converted to be the Apostle to Gentiles. Peter was given the vision of the unclean animals, which represented that the everlasting covenant was to be preached to the Gentile nations. The Samaritans received salvation and the Spirit of the Father.

Scripture clearly shows us how the 70th week of Daniel was fulfilled, as Messiah and His Apostles confirmed with the Jews that He is their promised Messiah.

Some accepted Him and were saved, but most rejected Him and were condemned.

The deception is that the 70th week of Daniel hasn’t been fulfilled yet.

We’ve been told that it is about an end-times antichrist who makes a 7-year peace agreement with Israel, which starts a 7-year tribulation period.

The Jesuits created this deception in the 16th century to deflect blame away from the Popes of Rome, as the Protestant Reformers had rightly identified them as the Little Horn of Daniel, Son of Perdition of 2 Thessalonians 2, and antichrist beast of Revelation 13.

They had Jesuit Priest Francisco Ribera, a brilliant man with a doctorate in theology, write a 500 page commentary with an opposing view, where he manipulated prophecies in the books of Daniel and Revelation, to create the narrative of a one-man antichrist in an end-time 7-year tribulation.

This idea, called Futurism, was quickly adopted as the Roman Catholic Church’s official position on the Antichrist.

The true Church effectively rejected these futuristic concepts until the 19th century, when the Jesuits caused several people to promote these concepts; including Pastor Edward Irving, John Nelson Darby and Cyrus Ingerson Scofield, which led to these deceptions being taught at Dallas Theological Seminary, where the leaven of the Jesuits deceptions have spread around the world.

The historical witness of the many persecuted believers and theologians of the past have been pushed aside, and futurism is now taught by most Pastors.

I understand that this explanation of the 70th week of Daniel may be new to you, so I want to step back and take a child-like, logical view of the prophecy.

Simply ask yourself:

How long does it take the Father to fulfill His own 70 week prophecy?

The obvious and correct answer is 70 weeks. If a 70 week prophecy is given and it is not fulfilled in 70 consecutive weeks, then the prophecy is not valid.

What week follows the 69th week?

The obvious answer is the 70th week, but the enemy would have you believe that there is a 1,990+ year time gap between the 69th and 70th week, even though there is no such time gap defined in Daniel 9.

Daniel 9:25 mentions the arrival of the promised Messiah, and then Daniel 9:27 mentions a ‘covenant‘. Whose covenant do you suppose that it is referring to?

Isn’t it logical to assume that it is Messiah’s covenant, as the reason that He came was to die to ratify the everlasting covenant with His blood as the Passover Lamb?

The text even proclaims that He was ‘cut off‘, meaning that He was killed, in the middle of the seven years, which matches Isaiah’s prophecy about the promised Messiah, in Isaiah 53:8, “He was taken from prison and from judgment. And as for His generation, who considered that He shall be cut off from the land of the living? For the transgression of My people He was stricken.“

The consequences of the 70 Weeks of Daniel deception are grand!

The enemy’s end times deception is based on the concept of a futuristic 70th week of Daniel.

It causes people to look for an end times one-man Antichrist, instead of identifying the office of the papacy as the beast of Revelation, the Little Horn of Daniel and the Son of Perdition.

This is the very reason that the end times 7 year tribulation deception was created by the Roman Catholic Church.

They were being accused by the Protestant Reformers of being the Antichrist system who persecuted the saints.

The Protestant Reformers told people to ‘come out of her‘, which caused millions of people to leave the Roman Catholic Church and be saved by the pure Gospel of Messiah.

The enemy has programmed our minds to view the 70th week of Daniel as futuristic. He has used Pastors, Left Behind movies, books, etc.

But when you understand that the 70th week of Daniel has been fulfilled, and that it’s not an end-times 7-year tribulation period; most of the enemy’s deceptions about prophecy fulfillment crumble to the ground.

The Revelation Timeline Decoded Bible study series gives you the proof that the Popes of Rome are the beast of Revelation, the Little Horn of Daniel and the Son of Perdition.

Hazrus · Dec 21, 2016

Phew. What an interesting thread!

I think one thing is clear - the pre-tribbers and the non-pre-tribbers have not come to agreement. Is anyone surprised?

I think that for the readers of this thread who are not sure of their beliefs in the rapture, you can glean the following:
1. It is a complex issue.
2. Highly intelligent, strong Christians often have opposing views on this.
3. Despite what some Rapturists say, it is NOT important to your salvation whether you believe in the Rapture.

One other thing for the readers of this thread - - - a pre-trib rapture belief is not one held by the majority of Protestant Churches worldwide. It appears to be, in general, mostly confined to Churches in the USA. I assume most of the pre-trib Rapturists who have posted here are from the USA. Please speak up if I have this wrong...

To lay my cards on the table, I would say I espouse very similar views to Last Seven on this issue. As such I am a partial preterist (don't confuse this with Full Preterism --> that's heresy).

One last comment - I'm not convinced that those of similar beliefs to mine have sufficiently understood the role of ethnic Israel in the Church. Obviously from may passages (not the least being Rom 11) both ethnic Jews and non-Jews are part of the Body, which is one group called the Church. I wouldn't call this "replacement theology", as non-Jews are not replacing ethnic Jews; Salvation is now for all. Perhaps it should be called "Inclusive Theology" or something else? Anyway, there still seems to be some sense of "specialness" (to coin a phrase) for ethnic Jews. I'm 99%+ convinced that the pre-tribbers have gone too far the other way, but the partial preterists which are my guys are not 100% right, to be fair.

Hazrus · Dec 21, 2016

Another thing - - - A lot of Christians in the USA seem to be taught that "Preterism is Heresy". Some in this thread have stated this view. I would suggest one investigates "partial preterism" before making sweeping statements and discounting a poster's statements wholesale.

Douggg · Dec 21, 2016

Riberra said:
You are right.

Here something i have find who talk about the origin of the 7 years peace treaty theory between the Antichrist and Israel and the group who is pushing it...
Note that i am not in agreement about their claim that The Catholic Church is The AC / The little horn/Son of Perdition, or that there will be no AC/Beast taking literally power over the Earth during the last 42 months preceding the Coming of Jesus .....

But i believe that Daniel 9:23-27 have nothing to do with the Little Horn described in Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 who is the Beast described in Revelation 13:3-9 and Revelation 11:7 who will take power during 42 months ---3 1/2 years preceding the coming of Jesus.

70th Week Of Daniel Fulfillment

The 70th Week Of Daniel Deception

Understanding the seven years of the 70th week of Daniel is very important, because of the truth about their fulfillment, and the deceptions which are based on them.

The truth is that the 70th week of Daniel started when Messiah was baptized at age 30, and anointed by the Spirit.

Messiah’s ministry took place during the first half of the 7 years; so it’s not possible that it is yet future.

The truth is that the covenant of Daniel 9:27 is not just a 7-year covenant, as we’ve been led to believe.

It is the everlasting covenant, the same one that Abraham was saved by, as he believed by faith that the Father would provide a Lamb to atone for his sins.

The truth is that Messiah and His Disciples fulfilled the 70th week of Daniel, from 27-34 A.D., when they confirmed with the Jews for 7 years that He is the promised Messiah, who ratified the everlasting covenant with His blood as the Passover Lamb.

Messiah confirmed that He was the promised Messiah through His miracles, His wisdom, His knowledge of the Hebrew letters, His fulfillment of prophecy, and by His resurrection.

After Messiah’s ascension, the Apostles continued to confirm to the Jews that He is the promised Messiah, by proclaiming how He fulfilled prophecy and how He rose again.

On Pentecost, 3,000 Jews were saved from the witness of the Apostles being filled with the Spirit, and preaching the Gospel in their languages. The Church of Messiah is built on a foundation of Jews, who accepted Messiah as their Savior.

Paul proclaimed Jew first, and so it was. The seven years ended when the Jewish leaders stoned the Apostle Stephen to death, when he proclaimed that they had killed their promised Messiah.

Immediately after Stephen’s death, the Gospel was also shared with the Gentiles. The disciples were scattered throughout Judea and preached the Gospel. Philip was led to the Ethiopian Eunuch, who was saved. Saul was converted to be the Apostle to Gentiles. Peter was given the vision of the unclean animals, which represented that the everlasting covenant was to be preached to the Gentile nations. The Samaritans received salvation and the Spirit of the Father.

Scripture clearly shows us how the 70th week of Daniel was fulfilled, as Messiah and His Apostles confirmed with the Jews that He is their promised Messiah.

Some accepted Him and were saved, but most rejected Him and were condemned.

The deception is that the 70th week of Daniel hasn’t been fulfilled yet.

We’ve been told that it is about an end-times antichrist who makes a 7-year peace agreement with Israel, which starts a 7-year tribulation period.

The Jesuits created this deception in the 16th century to deflect blame away from the Popes of Rome, as the Protestant Reformers had rightly identified them as the Little Horn of Daniel, Son of Perdition of 2 Thessalonians 2, and antichrist beast of Revelation 13.

They had Jesuit Priest Francisco Ribera, a brilliant man with a doctorate in theology, write a 500 page commentary with an opposing view, where he manipulated prophecies in the books of Daniel and Revelation, to create the narrative of a one-man antichrist in an end-time 7-year tribulation.

This idea, called Futurism, was quickly adopted as the Roman Catholic Church’s official position on the Antichrist.

The true Church effectively rejected these futuristic concepts until the 19th century, when the Jesuits caused several people to promote these concepts; including Pastor Edward Irving, John Nelson Darby and Cyrus Ingerson Scofield, which led to these deceptions being taught at Dallas Theological Seminary, where the leaven of the Jesuits deceptions have spread around the world.

The historical witness of the many persecuted believers and theologians of the past have been pushed aside, and futurism is now taught by most Pastors.

I understand that this explanation of the 70th week of Daniel may be new to you, so I want to step back and take a child-like, logical view of the prophecy.

Simply ask yourself:

How long does it take the Father to fulfill His own 70 week prophecy?

The obvious and correct answer is 70 weeks. If a 70 week prophecy is given and it is not fulfilled in 70 consecutive weeks, then the prophecy is not valid.

What week follows the 69th week?

The obvious answer is the 70th week, but the enemy would have you believe that there is a 1,990+ year time gap between the 69th and 70th week, even though there is no such time gap defined in Daniel 9.

Daniel 9:25 mentions the arrival of the promised Messiah, and then Daniel 9:27 mentions a ‘covenant‘. Whose covenant do you suppose that it is referring to?

Isn’t it logical to assume that it is Messiah’s covenant, as the reason that He came was to die to ratify the everlasting covenant with His blood as the Passover Lamb?

The text even proclaims that He was ‘cut off‘, meaning that He was killed, in the middle of the seven years, which matches Isaiah’s prophecy about the promised Messiah, in Isaiah 53:8, “He was taken from prison and from judgment. And as for His generation, who considered that He shall be cut off from the land of the living? For the transgression of My people He was stricken.“

The consequences of the 70 Weeks of Daniel deception are grand!

The enemy’s end times deception is based on the concept of a futuristic 70th week of Daniel.

It causes people to look for an end times one-man Antichrist, instead of identifying the office of the papacy as the beast of Revelation, the Little Horn of Daniel and the Son of Perdition.

This is the very reason that the end times 7 year tribulation deception was created by the Roman Catholic Church.

They were being accused by the Protestant Reformers of being the Antichrist system who persecuted the saints.

The Protestant Reformers told people to ‘come out of her‘, which caused millions of people to leave the Roman Catholic Church and be saved by the pure Gospel of Messiah.

The enemy has programmed our minds to view the 70th week of Daniel as futuristic. He has used Pastors, Left Behind movies, books, etc.

But when you understand that the 70th week of Daniel has been fulfilled, and that it’s not an end-times 7-year tribulation period; most of the enemy’s deceptions about prophecy fulfillment crumble to the ground.

The Revelation Timeline Decoded Bible study series gives you the proof that the Popes of Rome are the beast of Revelation, the Little Horn of Daniel and the Son of Perdition.

Riberra, the 70 weeks are leading up to the stoning of Stephen? What about the 70 weeks leading up to the Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, Lord of Lords, King of Kings to destroy the wicked, heal the earth, bring in the Kingdom of God, reward the saints, raise the dead, establish worldwide knowledge of the One True God, make the crooked paths straight, end famine and disease.... I could go no, but surely you get the point.

Major1 · Dec 21, 2016

Douggg said:
No, I am saying there is no peace treaty agreement involved at all.

The entire notion of a 7 year peace agreement is conjecture that has become popularized repeated over and over that people just assume that it is correct. It is has been programmed into peoples minds that the interpretation of confirming the covenant for 7 years is a peace treaty.

There will be no need for any kind of peace treaty for one thing - following Gog/Magog because Israel's enemies in the middle east will have all been destroyed and Islam over.

The Mt. Sinai covenant is not a peace treaty, never was. It was a covenant between the children of Israel and God, that they would be his nation and He would be their God. And under the terms of the covenant they would be blessed if they obeyed his laws - or they would be cursed if they disobeyed his laws in going after other gods.

No, the bible doesn't say peace treaty. Bible commentators have said peace treaty.

There is no peace treaty of any kind involved regarding confirmation of the covenant for 7 years. It is misdirection looking for a 7 year peace treaty to happen. Back in 2011, it was the quartet, then the Oslo accords, and so on, people looking for a 7 year peace treaty.

That the person stops the daily sacrifice in the middle part of the week, is not because he breaks a peace treaty, but because he transgresses the Mt. Sinai covenant by claiming to have achieved God-hood.

The war that he subsequently makes is on the saints, worldwide, and convinces the kings of the earth to make war on Jesus at the very end. But not because there was any kind of peace treaty ever involved.

And to end this post on a positive note....lest we lose focus on who we have hope in.

I am going to have to disagree with you Doug with all respect to you.

Daniel 9:27........
"Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”

In the past I have read that there are two interpretations of “the covenant;”.

1). It is thought to be the A/C who spoken of in verse #26, and which seems to get some support from Daniel 7:25. According to this interpretation, the "covenant" refers to an agreement which the A/C makes with the "people/saints" that is the nation of Israel

2). But the word “covenant” does not apply to any such agreement, but rather to a covenant with God. That would be the position you seem to be supporting.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (make a firm covenant, ASV).

The language higbir from gabar, "be strong" does not signify confirmation of a covenant but causation of a firm covenant. And he shall cause to prevail is an excellent translation. The most natural antecedent for he, the subject of the clause, is the wicked "prince" of verse 26.

This is the nearest noun in grammatical agreement, and it fits the sense. The many here, as elsewhere, is a reference to the Hebrew people, the subject of discussion throughout chapter 9 (cf. vv. 2,12,18,19, esp. 24, "thy people ... thy holy city"). Evidently the covenant is to be made between Antichrist and Israel when the Jews are back in their homeland in the last days. The exact nature of the covenant is unknown.(The Deal of Daniel 9:27)

Major1 · Dec 21, 2016

keras said:
Correct, and so as 1 Peter 2:9-10 says: Christians are the called out ones...... who before were not a people, but are now the people of God.
So the true Church is the holy people of God and ethnic Israel is no longer of any more significance than any other nation.
Bible prophecy does NOT say ethnic Israel is to be eventually saved, on the contrary their punishment to come soon, as I post above, is more severe for them. Only a remnant of Jewish true believers will survive.

Put simply: the pretentious idea of the Church going to heaven, while Israel suffers tribulation, is quite wrong and not what God has said will happen.

With all due respect, I still have to disagree with you. Replacement Theology is very, very wrong and it has clouded your perception completely. It has caused you to completely disreguard the Word of God and that is not only sad but dangerous.

However, you are intelligent and it is your choice.

Have a wonderful Christmas and may the Lord bless you.

Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

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