Sabbathkeeper&Wife
1Corinthians 13:2 - agape
GOOD quote. I rather call the first sanctification . The gift part brought on by faith.
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Righteousness by Faith
- Thread starter masmpg
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Please show this from the bible. Great principles but does not prove that sin will not cause us to lose our salvation.
Here is what God told Isaiah. He said our iniquities separate us from God. So can we be separated from God and still have salvation?
Isa:59:1&2: "Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear."
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I agree that there is imputed (justified) righteousness, and imparted (sanctified) righteousness, but that does not mean there are two type , kinds, flavors, of righteousness. There is only one righteousness of Christ which covers all confessed sins and makes us justified and sanctified, along with sinless, perfect, holy, and righteous. This is righteousness by faith. Accepting Christ's righteousness as our own by faith. This will give us victory over all sin when we look to the cross for it.
2 Corinthians 3:18 is the most awesome example of the Christian walk of sanctification. It points out that we are transformed from glory to glory, implying that every step of our Christian walk is a finish product. We are sanctified, past tense every step of the way, from one glory to the next glory. The KJV says it much more powerfully. We are not "being"transformed, we are transformed every step of the way, so that if we die while we are at one stage we are still sanctified. Furthermore only those who are sanctified, past tense, can do the Lords work.
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The transformation is the renewing of the mind. we learn to see ourselves as we truly are in Jesus. Righteous. And then we live from our true identity.
The thing to note is that glory to glory implies you can be sinless, but still be able to grow up to a new glory. There isn't a monotone perfection, a stagnant peak, there is growth even in heaven. Do you see what I mean? Just we because we are righteous doesn't mean there isn't more to learn and grow in.
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We are 100% secure of our salvation unless we outright refuse it willfully. This because Jesus secured our salvation, not us. But we can enter in, or refuse. Works, whether good or bad, do not play a role in salvation.
Sanctification actually means to set apart. Look it up in Strongs. We are set apart for good works, good works are the natural consequence of receiving grace, the power of God. The process to which you refer is the renewing of the mind. But it is not from sinfulness to perfection. It is moving from glory to glory, growing in intimacy with our God.
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The more important question is where the bible says sin removes salvation. The reason this is the thing to look for, is because the bible clearly teaches we can be assured of salvation. Now if we have been sealed with the Spirit and have confidence in Jesus, then we are no longer trusting in our own works. By saying you can lose salvation by sinning, you are saying that salvation relies on your own good works. You are minimising Jesus work and adding your own.
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Interesting verse you choose. The lords hand is not shortened that it cannot save. Therefore salvation is in Gods hands, not ours. As I understand, without Jesus, sin seperates us from God. But with Jesus we are reconciled into Him where neither height nor depth, nor anything can seperate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Saviour.
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Where is sin causing loss of salvation here? I read this to mean that we should stay vigilant with regard to what we set our hearts on, remain focussed on pure and good things. Don't think that we can just get lazy and be deceived into problematic sins because they cause problems. But I'm not reading anything about salvation being lost.
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Sabbathkeeper&Wife
1Corinthians 13:2 - agape
Mathew 7:21-23-
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (who practice lawlessness)
John 14:15-
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:24-
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Isaiah 29:13-
Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Mathew 15:8-9-
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
James 2:18-20-
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (who practice lawlessness)
John 14:15-
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:24-
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Isaiah 29:13-
Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Mathew 15:8-9-
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
James 2:18-20-
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
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Is this with regard to losing salvation? All I see are verses showing groups who never received salvation trying to earn it by supernatural works, or by just saying "I believe in God" but not receiving His salvation.
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Sabbathkeeper&Wife
1Corinthians 13:2 - agape
How would you know that salvation was not given them? They obviously thought it was and did His bidding, or thought they were. People don't usually spend too much time doing churchwork unless they think they are part of the fold. Of course, that excludes the leaders of ministries who profit that know what they do. They have their own reward. In context, these are people pleading at the door expecting to be let in and dumbfounded that they weren't. They didn't come begging with their heads hung low, they rapped on the door and the denial of entrance was the first news they had heard of not making the cut. They seemingly were decieved into thinking that by simply believing and professing His name that they had it covered. People mis-reading John 3:16 will fall into the same category because they only read the headlines and not the whole article. It says "should" not perish, not "will not", yet many do. They believed a lie.
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Matthew 7:21-23
Ever met a "new-age" person? They do healings in Jesus Name but they don't call Him Lord and Saviour.
Ever met a person who believes God exists, and even believes Jesus exists, but they think if they are good people they will go to heaven?
These people were not who Jesus was addressing, but perhaps similar, such as Pharisees who cast out demons etc.
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Sabbathkeeper&Wife
1Corinthians 13:2 - agape
Most Christians fall under your second group. Calling Him Lord and Savior while continuing in sin is a slap in the face to Him. Remember the group of Bible verses that end with "to those that obey me"? IF He really is our Lord, we follow the Lamb wherever He goes. He does the will of His Father. We are to do His will. Rev 12:17
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What is your take on the lost sheep, the lost coin and the prodigal son? All these were once part of the fold, but went astray and came back. In fact they were welcome back with open arms, but still they were once gone from the fold altogether.
You might consider praying about being able to sin and still have Jesus in your heart. Jesus will not share the heart with satan. He that commits sin is of the devil. 1John 3:8&9. It is impossible to have both. Jesus said either you are with Him or against Him, so how can we sin (be against Him) and say we are with Him, when sin separates us from God?
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Sabbathkeeper&Wife
1Corinthians 13:2 - agape
1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1 Timothy 1:9-10
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Revelation 20:14-15
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Isaiah 9:15-16
The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.
16 For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed.
Malachi 3:5
And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
Proverbs 19:8-9
He that getteth wisdom loveth his own soul: he that keepeth understanding shall find good.
9 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish.
Revelation 13:18
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 19:10
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5-6
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
This can go on and on, old testament or new, the WORD of God never changes. Neither does He. One can convince their self, or even convince others. Changes nothing, other than the number gathered for the fire.
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1 Timothy 1:9-10
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Revelation 20:14-15
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Isaiah 9:15-16
The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.
16 For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed.
Malachi 3:5
And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
Proverbs 19:8-9
He that getteth wisdom loveth his own soul: he that keepeth understanding shall find good.
9 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish.
Revelation 13:18
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 19:10
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5-6
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
This can go on and on, old testament or new, the WORD of God never changes. Neither does He. One can convince their self, or even convince others. Changes nothing, other than the number gathered for the fire.
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That's not the second group I mentioned. What I was trying to say was, some people acknowledge intellectually that God exists, that Jesus exists, yet they do not confess Him as Lord of their lives.
Salvation is received. We can refuse the gift at any time by choice, not by sin. All three parable attest to this, especially the prodigal who chooses to leave the Father. He didn't accidentally leave by sinning, or intentionally leave by sinning, unless of of course you call leaving the house "sin", but if this is the case, this is the only kind of sin that removes our salvation, actually rejecting Him. Then we need to receive His forgiveness/salvation again. And the whole time, He remains unchanging with arms wide open.
However, just as a side note, the prodigal son is all about the older brother being jealous of the younger brother because the older brother thinks he's been "a good boy" yet is angry when the younger brother gets a party. This relates to any self-righteous group that thinks they alone deserve salvation and others aren't worthy. Salvation is available to anyone who is willing to receive it.
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Although I agree with much of what you state, it is just not biblical to presume that we can sin and still be justified, sanctified, saved. . . The wages of sin is death not a relationship with Jesus. When we sin we must confess before we can be forgiven, and get back on the path of sanctification.
There are many lessons for us in the parable of the prodigal son. The one you mentioned is another great lesson from Jesus. I have never heard that aspect of the parable. I agree that salvation is free for all. No denomination has cornered the market on salvation although some may think they have. God has children in all denominations.
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I totally agree here. We can be a Christian one day and sin the next and fall from grace and the only way back is by confessing, otherwise we are no longer walking on the path of sanctification to heaven until we do. The robe of Christ's righteousness will not cover one unconfessed sin. Here is a great story to prove it. Zechariah:3:3: "Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment." The filthy garments must be removed before we are given the robe of Christs righteousness.
I just heard a huge explosion here! It rattled the windows. Something must have blown up. I live in a small town with no kind of industry that would cause it.
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