Let's clear up the Eschatology Scripture?
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Postvieww
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Psalm3704 saidI rest my case!
Now you can throw the post-trib delusional doctrine out the window.
That's funny. I don't see the word "removal" highlighted in bold red, do you?
Let me guess. You have no idea what the shaking of heaven and earth means.
The trip to heaven isn't revealed by the shaking of heaven and earth. It's mentioned in Hebrews 12:22.
Hebrews 12:22 New King James Version (NKJV)
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
That's not what it means.
Clearly Hebrews 12:22-29 destroys the delusional doctrine of a post-trib rapture.
All you need to know is just two things, the church will escape to heaven.
Hebrews 12:25
See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven,
Hebrews 12:22
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In the near future, every Christian on earth is destined for 1 of 2 places, they either escape or they get left behind.
You'll get what you want, I'll take an easy escape anyday.
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I rest my case!
You’ve not made a case yet. Your cryptic talk and “I’m smarter than you” attitude does not make a case. The fact that God has not already destroyed the earth by fire has no bearing on the pre or post debate the final destruction of earth by fire will be after either one whichever is correct. If you have a case to make, then make it I’m all ears.
Now you can throw the post-trib delusional doctrine out the window.
LOL!
That's funny. I don't see the word "removal" highlighted in bold red, do you?
At least you acknowledged it was “funny” it was said in jest. Didn’t you see the LOL?
Let me guess. You have no idea what the shaking of heaven and earth means.
It is you who tried to use the passage to dispute my post, and it is you that failed to make your case. Once again, avoiding straight up debate, clear points and even a minimal effort in making a “case”.
The trip to heaven isn't revealed by the shaking of heaven and earth. It's mentioned in Hebrews 12:22.
Hebrews 12:22 New King James Version (NKJV)
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
You did not directly address any point in my post #350 that you partially quoted.
The verse above has nothing to do with a future PRE-TRIB resurrection of the church, or any trip to heaven by said church! If you have a case to make, then make it.
That's not what it means.
Then share your knowledge and make your case!
Clearly Hebrews 12:22-29 destroys the delusional doctrine of a post-trib rapture.
LOL!
All you need to know is just two things, the church will escape to heaven.
Your highlighting of words and shuffling of verses does not a case make. Nothing in Hebrews 12:22-29 speaks of a pretrib resurrection and a trip for resurrected saints to heaven it simply is not in the text.
Hebrews 12:25
See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven,
Your assumption that escape in this verse refers to an escape to heaven is without basis, or merit. It is not in the context or the text. It simply is a desperate attempt to support a theory not found in scripture.
Hebrews 12:22
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
“You have come” not will in the future come. No wonder some can find a pre-trib proof text hiding in many verses where none exist.
You'll get what you want, I'll take an easy escape anyday.
That statement is just one of the problems with the doctrine you tout. Jesus never promised an “Easy” anything about being a believer in Him. Just look at the apostles and what they endured, nothing was easy for them, and they for sure did not “escape” hard times..
If we truly are the last generation are we just so special that we will just be wisked away from the face of trouble and tribulation? I think not, believe what you will. You have far more to lose if you are wrong.
Proverbs 22:3 A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished.
I challenge you to find one bible commentary that supports anything in Hebrews 12 supporting a pretrib resurrection and trip to heaven for those resurrected saints. I will be waiting for a response to the challenge.
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keras
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After several years of trying to get people who believe in a rapture to see the truth about God's plans for His people, I realize this task is impossible because those who believe in a rapture to heaven; pre, mid or post, are locked into it and only the holy Spirit can change their belief.
Isaiah 29:9-12 says the Lord will place people into a deep sleep [of confusion] and make them unable to understand the visions.
Isaiah 29:14....I will astound these people and the wisdom and intelligence of them will disappear. Matthew 11:25
So those who have chosen to believe the fables that Paul said would be taught in the time to come, 2 Timothy 4:3-4 are basically unable to see the truth and that is how God wants it.
The quote above is a prime example of the determination of someone who no matter how much proof of their error, refuses to shift from a belief that offers an easy escape. It wouldn't be so bad if they kept their false ideas to themselves, or just their circle of like minded friends, but to promote something that isn't Biblical on an international Christian forum, is seriously bad. James 3:1
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keras
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Who will listen to me? Jeremiah 6:10
In my writings of the Prophetic scriptures about the end times, I find that many simply cannot see or understand the plainly revealed Word as given to us in the Bible. The Bible does tell us that the Lord can and does place a veil over those who He does not wish to understand His plans. This was done to the Jewish people in Jesus’ day and still remains upon them now.
Matthew 13:13-15 I speak in parables, for these people look without seeing, hear without listening or understanding. The prophecy of Isaiah 6:9-10, is being fulfilled in them. Their minds have become dull, they have shut their eyes and stopped their ears. Otherwise they might see, hear and understand and then they might turn to Me and I would heal them.
Jesus came in person to them, performing miracles and teaching eternal truths, but they failed to recognize who He was and rejected Him. They lost their chance for themselves and their descendants when they called out ‘His blood be upon us and our children’. Now, nearly 2000 years later, the Jews still actually put their hands to their ears whenever the Name of Jesus is mentioned. Christians are the only religion not permitted to emigrate to the State of Israel.
But we Christians are told in:
2 Timothy 4:4 In the last days, people will stop their ears to the truth and turn to fables
2 Timothy 3:2…always wanting to be taught, but incapable of attaining to a knowledge of the truth.
So now, in the latter days, some are in the same situation of failing to properly discern the truth, turning to false teachings and therefore being made incapable of correct understanding.
Isaiah 29:9-10 If you confuse yourself, you will remain confused, if you blind yourself, you will stay blinded, be drunk – but not with strong drink, for the Lord has poured on you a spirit of deep stupor. He has closed your eyes, [the prophets] and covered your heads. [the seers] Deuteronomy 29:4
Isaiah 48:1-8 Hear this now, you House of Jacob! Those who invoke the God of Israel, but not with honesty and sincerity, you call yourselves His people and lean for support on the God of Israel. I revealed what will happen long ago, I declared them to you before they happened, so you could not say: We discovered these things for ourselves. From now on, I will show you new things, hidden things, so you can’t say; I know that already. For you neither heard or knew, your ears were closed long ago.
Matthew 11:25-26 Jesus said: I thank you, Father – the Creator of the heavens and the earth, for keeping hidden these things from the learned and wise and revealing them to the uneducated. Yes, Father, for that was Your choice. 1 Corinthians 1:20
Daniel 12:9-10 The prophecies are to be kept secret until the time of the end. …none of the wicked will understand, only the wise leaders will understand.
Even today, as evidenced by the incredible variety of opinions about what we face in our future, it seems that we are incapable of any sort of consensus in the interpretation of the prophecies. Isaiah 56:10-11, Deuteronomy 32:28-29
What can we do? Each must carefully read the prophesies as given to us in the Bible, putting aside all theories, ideas or specious interpretations of people qualified as they may seem to be, and see what it is those ancient prophets are actually telling us. 2 Peter 1:19
That is my aim and object in all my writing: to set out the Prophetic Word in easily read short articles and giving other verses to explain it, along with how what is said could literally be fulfilled in the light of our modern knowledge. If what I write about conflicts with what you have been taught and believe, then please: for your own sake, check all the relevant scriptures in order to come to an understanding of the truth.
Pray for understanding and do not be ‘in the dark’, about what will happen. 1 Thess.5:4-5, Isaiah 54:4-8, Isaiah 32:3-4
logostelos.info
In my writings of the Prophetic scriptures about the end times, I find that many simply cannot see or understand the plainly revealed Word as given to us in the Bible. The Bible does tell us that the Lord can and does place a veil over those who He does not wish to understand His plans. This was done to the Jewish people in Jesus’ day and still remains upon them now.
Matthew 13:13-15 I speak in parables, for these people look without seeing, hear without listening or understanding. The prophecy of Isaiah 6:9-10, is being fulfilled in them. Their minds have become dull, they have shut their eyes and stopped their ears. Otherwise they might see, hear and understand and then they might turn to Me and I would heal them.
Jesus came in person to them, performing miracles and teaching eternal truths, but they failed to recognize who He was and rejected Him. They lost their chance for themselves and their descendants when they called out ‘His blood be upon us and our children’. Now, nearly 2000 years later, the Jews still actually put their hands to their ears whenever the Name of Jesus is mentioned. Christians are the only religion not permitted to emigrate to the State of Israel.
But we Christians are told in:
2 Timothy 4:4 In the last days, people will stop their ears to the truth and turn to fables
2 Timothy 3:2…always wanting to be taught, but incapable of attaining to a knowledge of the truth.
So now, in the latter days, some are in the same situation of failing to properly discern the truth, turning to false teachings and therefore being made incapable of correct understanding.
Isaiah 29:9-10 If you confuse yourself, you will remain confused, if you blind yourself, you will stay blinded, be drunk – but not with strong drink, for the Lord has poured on you a spirit of deep stupor. He has closed your eyes, [the prophets] and covered your heads. [the seers] Deuteronomy 29:4
Isaiah 48:1-8 Hear this now, you House of Jacob! Those who invoke the God of Israel, but not with honesty and sincerity, you call yourselves His people and lean for support on the God of Israel. I revealed what will happen long ago, I declared them to you before they happened, so you could not say: We discovered these things for ourselves. From now on, I will show you new things, hidden things, so you can’t say; I know that already. For you neither heard or knew, your ears were closed long ago.
Matthew 11:25-26 Jesus said: I thank you, Father – the Creator of the heavens and the earth, for keeping hidden these things from the learned and wise and revealing them to the uneducated. Yes, Father, for that was Your choice. 1 Corinthians 1:20
Daniel 12:9-10 The prophecies are to be kept secret until the time of the end. …none of the wicked will understand, only the wise leaders will understand.
Even today, as evidenced by the incredible variety of opinions about what we face in our future, it seems that we are incapable of any sort of consensus in the interpretation of the prophecies. Isaiah 56:10-11, Deuteronomy 32:28-29
What can we do? Each must carefully read the prophesies as given to us in the Bible, putting aside all theories, ideas or specious interpretations of people qualified as they may seem to be, and see what it is those ancient prophets are actually telling us. 2 Peter 1:19
That is my aim and object in all my writing: to set out the Prophetic Word in easily read short articles and giving other verses to explain it, along with how what is said could literally be fulfilled in the light of our modern knowledge. If what I write about conflicts with what you have been taught and believe, then please: for your own sake, check all the relevant scriptures in order to come to an understanding of the truth.
Pray for understanding and do not be ‘in the dark’, about what will happen. 1 Thess.5:4-5, Isaiah 54:4-8, Isaiah 32:3-4
logostelos.info
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I think so too Douggg. 
Keras Keras Keras!!! The one who pulls verses out of context. The one who thinks he's the only one who knows old testament prophecies. The one who thinks he can use them to pull a wool over people's eyes.
Have you not carefully read Isaiah 29? It's about Jerusalem during the Abomination of Desolation when God begins to pour out His wrath upon the world and start His destruction beginning with Jerusalem. Jeremiah 25:29.
Isaiah 29:1-14 Good News Translation (GNT)
29 God's altar, Jerusalem itself, is doomed! The city where David camped is doomed! Let another year or two come and go, with its feasts and festivals,2 and then God will bring disaster on the city that is called “God's altar.” There will be weeping and wailing, and the whole city will be like an altar covered with blood. 3 God will attack the city, surround it, and besiege it. 4 Jerusalem will be like a ghost struggling to speak from under the ground, a muffled voice coming from the dust.
5 Jerusalem, all the foreigners who attack you will be blown away like dust, and their terrifying armies will fly away like straw. Suddenly and unexpectedly 6 the Lord Almighty will rescue you with violent thunderstorms and earthquakes. He will send windstorms and raging fire; 7 then all the armies of the nations attacking the city of God's altar, all their weapons and equipment—everything—will vanish like a dream, like something imagined in the night. 8 All the nations that assemble to attack Jerusalem will be like a starving person who dreams he is eating and wakes up hungry, or like someone dying of thirst who dreams he is drinking and wakes with a dry throat.
9 Go ahead and be stupid! Go ahead and be blind! Get drunk without any wine! Stagger without drinking a drop! 10 The Lord has made you drowsy, ready to fall into a deep sleep. The prophets should be the eyes of the people, but God has blindfolded them. 11 The meaning of every prophetic vision will be hidden from you; it will be like a sealed scroll. If you take it to someone who knows how to read and ask him to read it to you, he will say he can't because it is sealed. 12 If you give it to someone who can't read and ask him to read it to you, he will answer that he doesn't know how.
13 The Lord said, “These people claim to worship me, but their words are meaningless, and their hearts are somewhere else. Their religion is nothing but human rules and traditions, which they have simply memorized. 14 So I will startle them with one unexpected blow after another. Those who are wise will turn out to be fools, and all their cleverness will be useless.”
29 God's altar, Jerusalem itself, is doomed! The city where David camped is doomed! Let another year or two come and go, with its feasts and festivals,2 and then God will bring disaster on the city that is called “God's altar.” There will be weeping and wailing, and the whole city will be like an altar covered with blood. 3 God will attack the city, surround it, and besiege it. 4 Jerusalem will be like a ghost struggling to speak from under the ground, a muffled voice coming from the dust.
5 Jerusalem, all the foreigners who attack you will be blown away like dust, and their terrifying armies will fly away like straw. Suddenly and unexpectedly 6 the Lord Almighty will rescue you with violent thunderstorms and earthquakes. He will send windstorms and raging fire; 7 then all the armies of the nations attacking the city of God's altar, all their weapons and equipment—everything—will vanish like a dream, like something imagined in the night. 8 All the nations that assemble to attack Jerusalem will be like a starving person who dreams he is eating and wakes up hungry, or like someone dying of thirst who dreams he is drinking and wakes with a dry throat.
9 Go ahead and be stupid! Go ahead and be blind! Get drunk without any wine! Stagger without drinking a drop! 10 The Lord has made you drowsy, ready to fall into a deep sleep. The prophets should be the eyes of the people, but God has blindfolded them. 11 The meaning of every prophetic vision will be hidden from you; it will be like a sealed scroll. If you take it to someone who knows how to read and ask him to read it to you, he will say he can't because it is sealed. 12 If you give it to someone who can't read and ask him to read it to you, he will answer that he doesn't know how.
13 The Lord said, “These people claim to worship me, but their words are meaningless, and their hearts are somewhere else. Their religion is nothing but human rules and traditions, which they have simply memorized. 14 So I will startle them with one unexpected blow after another. Those who are wise will turn out to be fools, and all their cleverness will be useless.”
Look at the titles in all the translations. What city do you see at the top of Isaiah 29?
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah+29&version=NKJV;GNT;ESV;NLT;NASB
The only one you were able to fool was your sidekick Postvieww who doesn't know his left foot from his right when it comes to bible prophecy.
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Too late! Case closed! LOL!
Yeah right. Just trying to cover up your foolish error. Too late now, it already happened and we know you're just trying to cover it up.
No apparently it's you who doesn't know what God meant when He said “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” Hebrews 12:26
Hebrews 12:22-29 speaks for itself and utterly refuted all your post-tribulation rapture nonsenses. You just don't know it because you don't understand this scripture.
Of course I did. It's right here in Hebrews 12:22-29. It explicitly refuted and debunked all your nonsenses. You just don't see it because you don't understand this scripture. It explicitly stated the firstborn of the church taken to heaven just before God begins His judgement upon the earth.
It's undeniably pre-trib and destroys any possibility of a post-trib rapture.
Hebrews 12:22-29 New King James Version (NKJV)
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,”indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we mayc serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,”indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we mayc serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Ask your sidekick Keras. You don't listen to anyone not post-trib nor the bible. LOL!!!
You won't be LOL so much if you knew Hebrews 12:22-29 is about the firstborn of the church taken to heaven just before God begins His judgement upon the earth.
You be doing a /sigh instead if you actually understood Hebrews 12:22-29.
And that's not what you did in posts 336 and 359?
What does this say Watson? Where is the place where God dwells? Where Jesus dwells? Where angels dwells?
Bottom line is your just don't get it.
Hebrews 12:22-29 New King James Version (NKJV)
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven,
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven,
The escape is easier than you think. You just have to wait for the pre-trib rapture.
1 Thessalonians 1:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead,even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead,even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
Sure beats waiting on a post-trib rapture. having to go through the tribulation after being left behind and only to find out at the end there is no rapture, no escape either.
Where did Jesus say anything about the last generation? More foolish assumptions.
You're not in any position to challenge anyone anything.
Unless you have successfully challenged yourself to accept what the bible teaches and conform to it's teachings instead of doing the opposite, you're in no position to make any type of request. I can easily post a commentator's comment but all you'll do is deny everything just as you have denied the bible.
I challenge you to admit the truth. Which comes first, the resurrection or the judgement. The resurrection is in verse 19, Christ descends upon earth for the judgement in verse 21.
Which comes first, verse 19 or verse 21?
Isaiah 26:19-21 New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.
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Right! We should all just gather together in a huge campfire, roasting marshmallows, singing kumbaya and listen to you preach about an apocalyptic CME at the 6th seal.
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keras
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Psalm3704, your style of posting belittles yourself.
Me thinks you doth protest too much. But your attitude is typical of someone whose case is flimsy and without any certain proof.
Postview and I make valid, scriptural points, but you say: 'we just don't get it'. It; being the false theory of a rapture removal to heaven, that you determinedly promote despite such an idea being contrary to anything that Jesus and the Apostles taught.
If you think that Isaiah 29 applies only to the Jews, this proves you haven't read that chapter properly. Read again Isaiah 29:17-24.....the humble and the poor will rejoice in the Lord...the wicked will be cut down...When Jacob's descendants, [now the Christian peoples] see what the Lord has done for them, they will regard Him with awe and praise His Name.
THIS is our promise and our destiny, the enemies gone, the holy Land cleared and all the Lord's people, Christians from every race, nation and language, gathered and living there in peace and prosperity. Amos 9:13-15, Isaiah 66:18b
Me thinks you doth protest too much. But your attitude is typical of someone whose case is flimsy and without any certain proof.
Postview and I make valid, scriptural points, but you say: 'we just don't get it'. It; being the false theory of a rapture removal to heaven, that you determinedly promote despite such an idea being contrary to anything that Jesus and the Apostles taught.
If you think that Isaiah 29 applies only to the Jews, this proves you haven't read that chapter properly. Read again Isaiah 29:17-24.....the humble and the poor will rejoice in the Lord...the wicked will be cut down...When Jacob's descendants, [now the Christian peoples] see what the Lord has done for them, they will regard Him with awe and praise His Name.
THIS is our promise and our destiny, the enemies gone, the holy Land cleared and all the Lord's people, Christians from every race, nation and language, gathered and living there in peace and prosperity. Amos 9:13-15, Isaiah 66:18b
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keras
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The Lord will send the fire!
So, what you are saying, is you don't believe what the ancient prophets wrote in our Bibles?
The prophesies about Jesus' first Advent literally happened; born in Bethlehem...rode on a donkey....etc.
At reason you can think of that they won't literally happen in the end times?
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I think you're upset. If you calm down, I'll save you a roasted marshmallow for when you finish telling us about the CME that will annihilate mankind before our Lord's return. And two marshmallows if you can prove the elects are raptured from heaven immediately after the tribulation.
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No! My style of posting belittles yourself.
No, you both don't get it one bit, and likely never will till we're gone, but by then it'll be too late.
~It said you have come to Mount Zion. Who has come? It's the firstborn of the Church who are registered in heaven, they are the wise virgins who didn't get left behind. Verse 23.
~Where is Mount Zion? It said right there, the heavenly Jerusalem. Verse 22. This refutes your foolish notion against the rapture removal to heaven.
~When will this happen? It's right there also crystal clear. It happens just before God tends to shake heaven and earth. Verse 26. This rapture to heaven happens pre-trib.
~Deny it all you want but this scripture is explicitly clear, the church gets rapture to heaven before the tribulation.
Hebrews 12:22-29 New King James Version (NKJV)
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,”indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,”indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Your argument falls apart at the seam Keras. Isaiah 29 happens during the tribulation, Amos 9:13-15 and Isaiah 66:18 is shortly after the tribulation. Thanks to me, you realized your error with Isaiah 29 and now must cover your embarrassment with scriptures about Israel after the tribulation.
You don't think I know these scriptures and can figure out the blunders you tried to cover up? LOL!!!
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Psalm3704 said:
And two marshmallows if you can prove the elects are raptured from heaven immediately after the tribulation.
There is no “rapture” “resurrection” from heaven to earth. I’ll give you two more marshmallows to go with the two you offered Keras, if you can prove raptured, resurrected, saints are gathered from heaven (where God dwells). I’ll add two more if you can prove that Christ returns or gathers anyone until after the tribulation.
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Is this a pre-trib rapture proof text?
Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
This is not talking about removing the church to heaven to hide out behind closed doors while the tribulation takes place on earth. That concept is ridiculous. No one hides out from anything in heaven and especially not behind a closed door. This is the kind of exegesis that produces a mythical trip to heaven for the resurrected and glorified church.
Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
This is not talking about removing the church to heaven to hide out behind closed doors while the tribulation takes place on earth. That concept is ridiculous. No one hides out from anything in heaven and especially not behind a closed door. This is the kind of exegesis that produces a mythical trip to heaven for the resurrected and glorified church.
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Hebrew 12 is not a pre-trib rapture proof text!
Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
This is not referring to a pre-trib trip to heaven. We are already come “unto mount Sion” our names are already “written in heaven” and our “conversation” (citizenship) is already in heaven. We now at this present time can enter spiritually into the holiest of holies and come boldly unto the throne of grace.
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Philippians 3:20 For our conversation (citizenship) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Hebrews 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
In a spiritual sense we already have access to the throne of God.
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Jesus is now our mediator and we can now approach Him.
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
This does not refer to a literal escape to heaven from this earth
Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Hebrews 2:3 is the same type of language as Hebrew12:25 there is no trip to heaven implied in the context of either passage.
2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
If we stay true to Christ we have escaped final judgment and we have escaped the entanglements of sin and corruption on this earth.
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
We are not to be shaken and we are not going to be gathered until after the falling away and the man of sin is revealed.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
We have already received the kingdom which cannot be moved, it is within us.
Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
29 For our God is a consuming fire.
There is no escape to heaven trip clearly stated or implied in this passage or any other in scripture.
Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
This is not referring to a pre-trib trip to heaven. We are already come “unto mount Sion” our names are already “written in heaven” and our “conversation” (citizenship) is already in heaven. We now at this present time can enter spiritually into the holiest of holies and come boldly unto the throne of grace.
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Philippians 3:20 For our conversation (citizenship) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Hebrews 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
In a spiritual sense we already have access to the throne of God.
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Jesus is now our mediator and we can now approach Him.
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
This does not refer to a literal escape to heaven from this earth
Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Hebrews 2:3 is the same type of language as Hebrew12:25 there is no trip to heaven implied in the context of either passage.
2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
If we stay true to Christ we have escaped final judgment and we have escaped the entanglements of sin and corruption on this earth.
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
We are not to be shaken and we are not going to be gathered until after the falling away and the man of sin is revealed.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
We have already received the kingdom which cannot be moved, it is within us.
Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
29 For our God is a consuming fire.
There is no escape to heaven trip clearly stated or implied in this passage or any other in scripture.
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keras
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Great the way rapturists use the words 'crystal clear' and 'explicit', when what they promote isn't actually mentioned at all.
In no way is Isaiah 29 to happen during the GT. It starts with the sudden and shocking Day of the Lord's wrath, the Sixth Seal devastation of the holy Land. Then how people, like yourself, won't know what the Lord has planned. After that worldwide disaster, the holy Land will be regenerated and His people will know Him and praise His Name. All provable from many other prophesies like Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, that both say how the Lord's holy people are in Jerusalem during the last days.
Still think you will be living in heaven? Have you any idea how unbelievably arrogant and pretentious that idea is? Basically, you have pre-judged yourself to be worthy of something no other Christian from Stephen until now has experienced.
The reality about heaven, is all we Christians can hope for is if we are killed for our faith and our soul is kept under the heavenly Altar.
But there is dozens of promises of God to His true Christian people, of their gathering and settling into the holy Land, in peace and prosperity, being as God always intended His people to be. It will be like heaven on earth and eventually God Himself come down to dwell on earth. Revelation 21:3 Heaven will be earth!
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You got that right Sherlock Holmes. You obvious didn't know I was referring to Matthew 24:31 against the fallacious teachings of the post-tribulation rapture. Had you knew what I was talking about, you won't admit the error involving a post-trib rapture.
Matthew 24:31 New King James Version (NKJV)
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
In a rapture, people go up, they don't come down.
Gotcha!!! LOL!!!
Oh this sounds sooooo sweet!!! A post-tribber finally admitting the errors in his belief on the timing of the rapture. Of course he had to be conned first as he never thinks before he types and accidentally spilled it out. /grins
Nah you can keep your two marshmallows for admitting the error of a post-trib rapture where the saints are raptured/resurrected, gathered from heaven (where God dwells).
And again, in a rapture, people go up, they don't come down. Matthew 24:31 is clearly not a verse on the rapture.
Matthew 24:31 New King James Version (NKJV)
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
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And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
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So you don't believe in the rapture of the church?
And this character writes bible study guides too huh.
This is pretty easy to refute. When will Jerusalem be surrounded by nations, attacked and captured? At the middle of the 70th week during the Abomination of Desolation.
Isaiah 29:1-4 Good News Translation (GNT)
29 God's altar, Jerusalem itself, is doomed! The city where David camped is doomed! Let another year or two come and go, with its feasts and festivals, 2 and then God will bring disaster on the city that is called “God's altar.” There will be weeping and wailing, and the whole city will be like an altar covered with blood. 3 God will attack the city, surround it, and besiege it. 4 Jerusalem will be like a ghost struggling to speak from under the ground, a muffled voice coming from the dust.
Keras ---> Debunked!!!29 God's altar, Jerusalem itself, is doomed! The city where David camped is doomed! Let another year or two come and go, with its feasts and festivals, 2 and then God will bring disaster on the city that is called “God's altar.” There will be weeping and wailing, and the whole city will be like an altar covered with blood. 3 God will attack the city, surround it, and besiege it. 4 Jerusalem will be like a ghost struggling to speak from under the ground, a muffled voice coming from the dust.
Sure we do. It's called the rapture of the church, and this happens at the 6th Seal. You just couldn't come to your senses being so lost in the dark from your ridiculous CME teaching.
Revelation 6:12-14New King James Version (NKJV)
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
Keras, I hate to tell you this but Jesus is building a great big wondrous mansion for me in heaven. I'm getting one and so will others who will be raptured pre-tribulation. Too bad those who stays on earth forfeits all rewards as they lose out the opportunity to appear at the Bema Seat to receive their mansion.
The reality about heaven, is all we post-tribbers can hope for is if we are killed for our faith and our soul is kept under the heavenly Altar.
John 14:2-3 New King James Version (NKJV)
2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
2 Corinthians 5:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
Hebrews 11:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Hebrews 11:16 New King James Version (NKJV)
But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.
Hebrews 13:14 New King James Version (NKJV)
For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come.
Hebrews 12:22-24 New King James Version (NKJV)
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
2 Corinthians 5:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
Hebrews 11:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Hebrews 11:16 New King James Version (NKJV)
But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.
Hebrews 13:14 New King James Version (NKJV)
For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come.
Hebrews 12:22-24 New King James Version (NKJV)
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Philippians 3:20-21 New King James Version (NKJV)
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
Ephesians 2:19 New King James Version (NKJV)
Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
Ephesians 2:19 New King James Version (NKJV)
Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
You won't be able to live that long till Revelation 21:3 happens. But first you must get through Daniel's 70th week and the time of Jacob's Trouble. Have fun living in Israel during the great tribulation. I'll keep an eye on you from above.
I promise you you won't be able to stay there very long. You'll just get scattered like everyone else during the great tribulation only to end up going back to New Zealand.
Just make sure you flee when you see the AoD spoken off by the prophet Daniel. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Of course. It's a gathering, not a rapture after the tribulation. No such thing as a post-tribulation rapture. People don't get rapture from heaven.
Matthew 24:31 New King James Version (NKJV)
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
In a rapture, people go up, they don't come down.
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Hebrews 12:22-29 New King James Version (NKJV)
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.”
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.”
LALALA LOL!!!
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