On Purgatory

I believe many would say it's an instantaneous event. 1 Corinthians 15:52 & 2 Corinthians 5:8

Monk Brendan said:

1 Cor:3:12-13 says (KJV) "Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is."

According to classic Catholic belief Purgatory is a place of burning fire, that does the final refining of the gold, silver and precious stones. Is the passage above not definite proof that such a place exists?

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Not in the least. It's been discussed before around here, but "fire" does not describe such a complicated Medieval invention as Purgatory is--not any more than the appearance of the word "baby" proves Limbo. Besides, fire does not try one's work in Purgatory because that not at all how Purgatory is supposed to operate.

Monk Brendan said:

First of all, Purgatory is not a medieval invention.

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Yeh, it is. There is room for saying that the general idea of something like a Purgatory of some sort has an earlier origin among Christians, but if we're talking about Purgatory itself--and that's what was said here--it's a Medieval creation and FWIW clearly reflects the mindset of the Late Middle Ages in Western Europe.

Second, you are trying to throw dust in my face, because I did not mention Limbo at all, so that comment is a non-sequitur.

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Whoa. I could have used a dozen examples of taking a single word from Scripture and saying that it 'proves' a theory that is complicated, unique, and full of specifics. If you thought I was linking Limbo and Purgatory, you assumed too much. Let's use a different example, then. I believe that you would not say that the mention of "love" (found written somewhere or other in the Bible) proves the validity of same-sex marriages. That's a real world example and not just hypothetical, but it's the same reasoning as you used when saying, "According to classic Catholic belief Purgatory is a place of burning fire, that does the final refining of the gold, silver and precious stones. Is the passage above not definite proof that such a place exists?"

[QUOTE="Monk Brendan,<snip>And the Reference to 2 Cor just means that when we die, we will be with the Lord, but not before our refining process![/QUOTE]

Sure it is. We both agree the purgation comes after we shed this fallen early flesh and be in the presents of the Lord. Our differences are in the details. I say it's instantaneous, I would like to see you establish your position from scripture that it's anything more than that.

Yes. I can't recall anyone else theorizing that we will die, then go through some potentially lengthy rehabbing or punitive process, and only then face God. Just about every church that I'm familiar with teaches that the particular or immediate judgment will be, well, immediate. Here's the first line from th Wikipedia article on the particular judgment:

Particular judgment, according to Christian eschatology, is the Divine judgment that a departed person undergoes immediately after death....

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Monk Brendan said:

1 Cor:3:12-13 says (KJV) "Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is."

According to classic Catholic belief Purgatory is a place of burning fire, that does the final refining of the gold, silver and precious stones. Is the passage above not definite proof that such a place exists?

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This certainly is one of many scriptures that talks about a purification after death. The early Church believed in this purification as does the present day Church.

However, it is not because of scripture that purgatory is denied. It is because of the false concept of imputed righteousness. I contribute nothing to my salvation, therefore, why purgatory.

Monk Brendan said:

Okay, and you will probably go through that fire, and have only wood, hay, and straw, without any Silver, Gold or precious gems. You will escape hell, maybe, but without any reward whatsoever. How about trying a loving approach to the same question, for instance:
I disagree with the concept of imputed righteousness, I don't feel that I bring anything to my salvation, therefore, why would I be tried in Purgatory.
It does leave a nicer flavor on the tongue that the bitter lemon you used.

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There is nothing bitter about my response. IMO, you are barking up the wrong tree. Scripture has been twisted to fit one's own ideas, so it is with purgatory.

Monk Brendan said:

First of all, Purgatory is not a medieval invention. Read some of the Orthodox writings on Toll Houses--it's the same thing.

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It is not remotely the same.

But before you reply, you might want to read The Soul after Death by Fr. Seraphim Rose.?

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What help would that be?

Monk Brendan said:

Purgatory was spoken about by the Jews in the inter-Testamental times and IS recorded by at least one book in the Apocrypha

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That's often said by Catholics, but it's not true. However, if someone is going to word it as "spoken about" it's easy to consider almost anything that refers to the dead or the afterlife, etc. seem to be "about" Purgatory (or any number of other concepts, theories, and ideas) without ever showing any reason to think there actually IS a Purgatory.

BTW, praying for the dead is a Christian Duty, and that is where Purgatory began.

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That's more accurate. Praying for the dead doesn't prove the existence of Purgatory in the least, but from that practice, men create the notion of that prayer having a certain effect, and that then leads to the question of "what good can it do if the saved don't need it and the damned can't have their status changed?" Then an answer is provided, strictly from theory, and it's called Purgatory.

My church, by the way, does pray for God's mercy on all the faithful departed, and we don't for a moment think that there's a Purgatory with indulgences, a Treasury of Merit from which the indulgences are doled out, and all the rest of the fanciful teachings that surround the idea of Purgatory that was created in the Latin Church in the Late Middle Ages and announced by a church council.

And yes, before you start taking me to task over it, there have been some terrible Popes in the history of the Church.

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What makes you think I'd "take you to task" over that?? Or is it something all "non-Catholics" are supposed to do?

Monk Brendan said:

If you have read this work, you would understand. If you have not, it gives a clearer picture of the state of the soul after we die, including results that come about when praying for the dead.

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I've read it, and from memory, I don't believe Fr Seraphim brought up the subject of purgatory.

Monk Brendan said:

But before you reply, you might want to read The Soul after Death by Fr. Seraphim Rose.

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Please don't.