Annihilationism

ewq1938 · Jul 7, 2016

expos4ever said:
I will not bandy words with you about this. All I will say is that I, for one, believe that the lost are annihilated ultimately, but not at death.

At the second death they are annihilated.

StanJ · Jul 7, 2016

expos4ever said:
No. There have been multiple posts which I suggest show the rather obvious flaw in your reasoning.

Implying something and showing it are two different things.

expos4ever said:
The word "apo" is most certainly in 2 Thessalonians 1:9:

expos4ever said:
And you most certainly did present it as refuting annihilation:

That's because the verse does refute annihilation.
<Staff Edit>

StanJ · Jul 7, 2016

ewq1938 said:
At the second death they are annihilated.

But no scripture to support that right? Just opinion.

Colter · Jul 7, 2016

StanJ said:
Is that the same kind of Courage that Satan used to say he was better than God?

No, it's the kind of courage one has in defending the character of God against the dim view of him among the holy men in the past.

FreeinChrist · Jul 7, 2016

MOD HAT

Okay folks, you need to throttle back. Don't make your responses about "you" but about what you believe on the topic and support your own view.

StanJ · Jul 7, 2016

expos4ever said:
That is what we are debating, you cannot simply assert it.

Not an assertion when I've backed it up with corroboration.

expos4ever said:
I do not believe you have made this case at all. It is important to distinguish between scholars with a theological position to defend and more "neutral" scholars with no skin in the game. If you can point us to some credible scholars who assert that "destruction" (or "perishing" of "death") were generally understood in that culture to be only about "the body", by all means, present their names and arguments.

I've done this on more one occasion and you still haven't reciprocated to anyone in this fashion. The following is your very first post on this thread; http://www.christianforums.com/threads/annihilationism.7953299/page-11#post-69807195
Please feel free to supply any scholarly or scriptural support for all the opinions made in that post.

expos4ever said:
How, and please be precise, does it follow that if we are triune beings, "destruction" or "loss" is limited in application to the physical?

Show me where death ever relates to the spirit.

expos4ever said:
Same principle as before, but with a slight modification:
1. You assume that to go into the Lake of Fire means you will never burn up completely.
2. If this is a valid assumption - one borne out by non-circular arguments - then you definitely have a point.
3. If this is an invalid assumption - as I believe it is - it is of course entirely to be expected that there will be no Biblical texts that explicitly assert people in the Lake of Fire will be burned up. Why not? Because if you are wrong, statements about people being tossed in the Lake of Fire entail by virtue of common knowledge that things tossed into fires generally do burn up.

No assumption, scripture never tells us that the Lake of Fire is a place of consumption.
No assumption, scripture teaches us that the Lake of Fire is a place of segregation not consumption. It's a place of imprisonment.
As I've stated before if scripture is not bound by your determination your thought process of what is sensible or nonsense. As the context of death in the entire Bible only ever relate to the physical then it is irrational to conclude that it can ever be anything more than physical. Again as requested multiple times give us one scripture where death actually refers to a spirit because I've giving you Revelation 20:10 that shows the spirits don't die yet you still conclude that Spirits cast in there will die.

Now please tell us how a metaphorical Lake of Fire can destroy a metaphysical being?

StanJ · Jul 7, 2016

Colter said:
No, it's the kind of courage one has in defending the character of God against the dim view of him among the holy men in the past.

I really have no idea what you're referring to. This thread is about traditionalism vs conditionalism, so how exactly are holy men of the past relative to this topic?

expos4ever · Jul 7, 2016

StanJ said:
Show me where death ever relates to the spirit.

The point is that it is entirely plausible, and in fact I suggest highly likely, that when writers of Scripture refer to the "death" or "perishing" of someone, they are, in fact intending to represent that the entire person - body and soul - has / will ultimately perish precisely because to "perish" means for the whole person to cease to exist.

ewq1938 · Jul 7, 2016

expos4ever said:
The point is that it is entirely plausible, and in fact I suggest highly likely, that when writers of Scripture refer to the "death" or "perishing" of someone, they are, in fact intending to represent that the entire person - body and soul - has / will ultimately perish precisely because to "perish" means for the whole person to cease to exist.

Yes because only the righteous have their body soul and spirit preserved:

1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The opposite is non-preservation of those same three aspects.

expos4ever · Jul 7, 2016

StanJ said:
No assumption, scripture never tells us that the Lake of Fire is a place of consumption.

Here is the problem. While I concede that some Biblical texts talk about fires that do not consume their fuel, it remains the case - obviously - that fires generally consume their fuel.

You are expecting that every time someone wants to represent something as burned up, they need to explicitly tell the reader that the item was burned up. This makes no sense. If I toss a piece of paper in a raging fire, the mere declaration "I tossed the piece of paper in the fire" is sufficient to indicate the paper gets burned up because, of course, that is what fires do - they consume paper away to nothing. With your line of thinking, my audience will assume that the piece of paper remains eternally on fire, just because I did not add ".....and the paper was consumed".

You are not recognizing the obvious general truth that fires, in general do consume what gets tossed in them.

expos4ever · Jul 7, 2016

StanJ said:
Now please tell us how a metaphorical Lake of Fire can destroy a metaphysical being?

Strawman, I never asserted that the lake of fire is "metaphorical".

expos4ever · Jul 7, 2016

StanJ said:
I've done this on more one occasion and you still haven't reciprocated to anyone in this fashion.

Please just simply identify the post number(s) of posts where you have actually made the case - and not simply stated - that to the people of that time place, the term "death" / "perish" were restricted in application to the body. I concede that I have ye yet to make the case that these terms were indeed intended to be taken as including the totality of the spirit. Are you able to concede the same thing - that you have not really made the relevant case?

All I want is a post number - how hard can that be to provide?

expos4ever · Jul 7, 2016

StanJ said:
No assumption, scripture never tells us that the Lake of Fire is a place of consumption.

Nor does scripture tell us that when the sun goes down, it gets dark. But that is hardly a case that if a writer of scripture told us the sun went down, they would not have intended us to understand by implication that it gets dark.

Fires do basically two things:

1. Give off heat and light;
2. Consume their fuel.

You appear to be expecting that writers of scripture have to tell their readers what they already know - that fires consume their fuel.

Colter · Jul 7, 2016

The Bible supports eternal life, eternal death and the concept of an eternal suffering.

Matthew 25:46
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (NIV)

Revelation 14:11
"And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the markof his name." (NKJV)

Like it or not the traditional idea of an eternal torment comes from the scripture.

ewq1938 · Jul 7, 2016

Colter said:
The Bible supports eternal life, eternal death and the concept of an eternal suffering.

Matthew 25:46
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (NIV)

Revelation 14:11
"And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the markof his name." (NKJV)

Like it or not the traditional idea of an eternal torment comes from the scripture.

You haven't supplied anything that supports such a concept. Eternal punishment is not eternal torture and smoke rising forever does not equal eternal torture either.

The bible says death and destruction await the unsaved. There is no such thing as immortality for the unsaved.

Colter · Jul 7, 2016

ewq1938 said:
You haven't supplied anything that supports such a concept. Eternal punishment is not eternal torture and smoke rising forever does not equal eternal torture either.

The bible says death and destruction await the unsaved. There is no such thing as immortality for the unsaved.

<Staff Edit>

Full context.

9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury,which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of Godwho keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

StanJ · Jul 7, 2016

expos4ever said:
The point is that it is entirely plausible, and in fact I suggest highly likely, that when writers of Scripture refer to the "death" or "perishing" of someone, they are, in fact intending to represent that the entire person - body and soul - has / will ultimately perish precisely because to "perish" means for the whole person to cease to exist.

And it is entirely possible if not highly probable that you're wrong given how the scripture conveys death as being a strictly physical thing.

StanJ · Jul 7, 2016

expos4ever said:
Here is the problem. While I concede that some Biblical texts talk about fires that do not consume their fuel, it remains the case - obviously - that fires generally consume their fuel.

Yes, REAL fires, not metaphorical ones.

expos4ever said:
You are expecting that every time someone wants to represent something as burned up, they need to explicitly tell the reader that the item was burned up. This makes no sense. If I toss a piece of paper in a raging fire, the mere declaration "I tossed the piece of paper in the fire" is sufficient to indicate the paper gets burned up because, of course, that is what fires do - they consume paper away to nothing. With your line of thinking, my audience will assume that the piece of paper remains eternally on fire, just because I did not add ".....and the paper was consumed".

Not when the context is literal. We've already established that your sense of things is not how the Bible is interpolated.
It has become apparent that you also don't understand the meaning of the word metaphor.
met·a·phor
ˈmedəˌfôr,ˈmedəˌfər/
noun
a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.

expos4ever said:
You are not recognizing the obvious general truth that fires, in general do consume what gets tossed in them.

Unless of course they are metaphorical and consume whatever the writer of the metaphor wants them to consume.
The bottom line however is that you still didn't answer my question despite all your verboseness.

StanJ · Jul 7, 2016

expos4ever said:
Nor does scripture tell us that when the sun goes down, it gets dark. But that is hardly a case that if a writer of scripture told us the sun went down, they would not have intended us to understand by implication that it gets dark.

It does if you know where to find it and implication is not necessary. Gen 15:17 & Deuteronomy 16:16 to name just two of many.

expos4ever said:
Fires do basically two things:
1. Give off heat and light;
2. Consume their fuel.
You appear to be expecting that writers of scripture have to tell their readers what they already know - that fires consume their fuel.

Fire also consumes matter that is not considered fuel, such as water. 1 Kings 18:33-38.
However, again you deflect and obfuscate because we are not dealing with literal fire are we?

StanJ · Jul 7, 2016

expos4ever said:
Please just simply identify the post number(s) of posts where you have actually made the case - and not simply stated - that to the people of that time place, the term "death" / "perish" were restricted in application to the body. I concede that I have ye yet to make the case that these terms were indeed intended to be taken as including the totality of the spirit. Are you able to concede the same thing - that you have not really made the relevant case?
All I want is a post number - how hard can that be to provide?

You've already shown great adeptness at doing this, so I can only assume that this post is just another deflection in order for you to not deal with the real issue here.

Annihilationism

What is your view of the final state of the unrepentant.

Annihilationism (I believe the unrepentant will be destroyed)

Traditionalism (I believe the unrepentant will suffer eternal conscious torment in hell)

Universalism (I believe that everyone will eventually be saved)

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