Refuting Sola Scriptura - Why the Bible Alone is Not Sufficient

Do You Adhear to Sola Scriptura?


  • Total voters
    97
Status
Not open for further replies.

Goatee

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.
Aug 16, 2015
7,585
3,621
59
Under a Rock. Wales, UK
✟77,615.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Divorced
So are you saying that the Roman Catholic Church changed their minds and all these popes and saints had it wrong?

1) "The holy universal Church proclaims that God cannot truly be worshipped save within herself, and asserts that all they who are without her pale shall never be saved."

Pope Gregory the Great 540-604 A.D.

2) "The Church is like the Ark of Noah, outside of which nobody can be saved."

St. Thomas Aquinas 1224-1274 A.D.

3) "That there is one Holy Catholic and apostolic Church we are compelled to believe and to hold, prompted by divine faith, and we do believe this firmly and confess it simply, outside of which there can be no salvation, or remission of sins…."

Pope Boniface VIII 1235-1303 A.D., became Pope in 1294

4) "It is a sin to believe that there is salvation outside the Catholic Church."
Pope Pius IX 1792-1878 A.D., became Pope in 1846, convened the first Vatican Council in 1869, which enunciated the Catholic doctrine of papal infallibility.

5) "We believe the Church is necessary for salvation because Christ, who is the sole mediator and exclusive way of salvation, renders Himself present for us in His body which is the Church. We must always remember the unity of the mystical body, without which there can be no salvation, is open to no one outside the Catholic Church."

Pope Paul VI 1897-1978 A.D. became Pope in 1963

6) "For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help towards salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained."

Vatican II 1965

As Catholic know, the Pope cannot be infallible on anything other than doctrine and matters of important points of faith. Ask Pope Francis what is quoted above and i bet you he will have a different answer!!
 
Upvote 0

Goatee

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.
Aug 16, 2015
7,585
3,621
59
Under a Rock. Wales, UK
✟77,615.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Divorced
What are your views on Pope Francis' stance on abortion? If the Pope is infallable in the "morals" department why is his moral views different from every pope before him?

What is his stance on abortion then? Can you quote something that he has said that you dont like?
 
Upvote 0

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 14, 2015
6,132
3,089
✟405,713.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
As Catholic know, the Pope cannot be infallible on anything other than doctrine and matters of important points of faith. Ask Pope Francis what is quoted above and i bet you he will have a different answer!!
So are you saying that you do not agree with the Roman Catholic teachings on this issue? What else did the Roman Catholic Church get wrong?
 
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,910
3,646
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟354,065.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Yes, actually you can... that is why I said study. The bible explains itself so is you break down the words and search for their meaning elsewhere in the Bible, the explanation will be given... for example, we know that a horse represents the church...

Isaiah 63:12,13
That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?
That led them through the deep, as an horse in the wilderness, that they should not stumble?



Grow up! Deflecting by wryly pointing our a typo is juvenile...
The part I bolded...the Bible does not always explain itself. That's why you and I have different understandings of John 6.
 
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,910
3,646
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟354,065.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
What does this mean?

Matt 18:17
If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
It means that there is an authority-the Church, to go to with your grievance. (In case anyone didn't respond...and I know you weren't looking for a Catholic to answer...:))
 
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,910
3,646
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟354,065.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
What are your views on Pope Francis' stance on abortion? If the Pope is infallable in the "morals" department why is his moral views different from every pope before him?
His stance is that abortion is always and everywhere wrong. I agree with him.
 
Upvote 0

Goatee

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.
Aug 16, 2015
7,585
3,621
59
Under a Rock. Wales, UK
✟77,615.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Divorced
So are you saying that you do not agree with the Roman Catholic teachings on this issue? What else did the Roman Catholic Church get wrong?

As a non-Catholic i am sure you could conjure up some?
 
Upvote 0

thecolorsblend

If God is your Father, who is your Mother?
Site Supporter
Jul 1, 2013
9,199
8,425
Gotham City, New Jersey
✟308,231.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
So what you are saying is that Catholics cannot think for themselves? They NEED someone to tell them what to believe and how to believe it?
In principle I don't think any Christian claims to think for himself. Whether he depends exclusively on Sacred Scripture for guidance or whether he looks to the Church and her authority, he looks to authority. Christians are not unique in this regard because even Our Lord obeyed God the Father and looked to His authority.

Jesus therefore said to them: When you shall have lifted up the Son of man, then shall you know, that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself, but as the Father hath taught me, these things I speak:
And he that sent me, is with me, and he hath not left me alone: for I do always the things that please him.
-- John 8:28 (DRA)

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father who sent me, he gave me commandment what I should say, and what I should speak.
-- John 12:49 (DRA)

In each of the above, Our Lord appealed to the Father's authority and the Father's mission. He outright said He was speaking on behalf of God the Father rather than Himself.

If you're bragging about thinking for yourself, I think your priorities may need fixing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Root of Jesse
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,910
3,646
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟354,065.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
There you go, you study those who come after the apostles
Why are Protestants so "either/or"? I never said I study only those who come after the apostles. We study the Bible, the writings of the apostles (which are not all contained in the NT), and those who study under them. Jesus promised that he would guide the apostles in ALL TRUTH. This included those who were successors to the apostles.

Honestly, it's like telling your wife "You look beautiful today!" And she comes back "Just today?".
 
Upvote 0

Goatee

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.
Aug 16, 2015
7,585
3,621
59
Under a Rock. Wales, UK
✟77,615.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Divorced
What are your views on Pope Francis' stance on abortion? If the Pope is infallable in the "morals" department why is his moral views different from every pope before him?

Quote:
What did the Pope actually say? Here are his key words: “The forgiveness of God cannot be denied to one who has repented, especially when that person approaches the Sacrament of Confession with a sincere heart in order to obtain reconciliation with the Father. For this reason too, I have decided, notwithstanding anything to the contrary, to concede to all priests for the Jubilee Year the discretion to absolve of the sin of abortion those who have procured it and who, with contrite heart, seek forgiveness for it. May priests fulfil this great task by expressing words of genuine welcome combined with a reflection that explains the gravity of the sin committed, besides indicating a path of authentic conversion by which to obtain the true and generous forgiveness of the Father who renews all with his presence”. /Quote
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 14, 2015
6,132
3,089
✟405,713.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
As a non-Catholic i am sure you could conjure up some?
The Roman Catholic Church and many popes viewed abortion as an unforgivable sin and many women were excommunicated as a result. Yet Pope Frances gave the Priests the authority to absolve that sin and show mercy. If the Pope is infallible in the moral department because he is guided by the Holy Spirit, then like the nature of God, it should remain constant. Because God does not make mistakes or changes his mind. So why is Pope Francis' position on the forgiveness of abortion different than the rest.

Here is a link to some video footage.

 
Upvote 0

Goatee

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.
Aug 16, 2015
7,585
3,621
59
Under a Rock. Wales, UK
✟77,615.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Divorced
The Roman Catholic Church and many popes viewed abortion as an unforgivable sin and many women were excommunicated as a result. Yet Pope Frances gave the Priests the authority to absolve that sin and show mercy. If the Pope is infallible in the moral department because he is guided by the Holy Spirit, then like the nature of God, it should remain constant. Because God does not make mistakes or changes his mind. So why is Pope Francis' position on the forgiveness of abortion different than the rest.

Here is a link to some video footage.


Did not Jesus forgive many people in the Bible, like the adulterous woman when through past laws the people wanted to stone her (Law of Moses)? He decided it was wrong! He saved her through mercy and love!

Remember, through Sacred Tradition the Holy Spirit works in the Catholic Church today! It is obvious that the Holy Spirit is guiding the Pope in this merciful act. A true act of forgiveness and love.

What a great man Pope Francis is!!! God bless him.
 
  • Like
Reactions: civilwarbuff
Upvote 0

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 14, 2015
6,132
3,089
✟405,713.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Quote:
What did the Pope actually say? Here are his key words: “The forgiveness of God cannot be denied to one who has repented, especially when that person approaches the Sacrament of Confession with a sincere heart in order to obtain reconciliation with the Father. For this reason too, I have decided, notwithstanding anything to the contrary, to concede to all priests for the Jubilee Year the discretion to absolve of the sin of abortion those who have procured it and who, with contrite heart, seek forgiveness for it. May priests fulfil this great task by expressing words of genuine welcome combined with a reflection that explains the gravity of the sin committed, besides indicating a path of authentic conversion by which to obtain the true and generous forgiveness of the Father who renews all with his presence”. /Quote
I agree with his statement. I did not need the pope to tell me that. Hence I can think for myself. The issue is simply this, what the church wrong to excommunicate women for abortion? Do you believe the church has the authority to excommunicate people?
 
Upvote 0

Fireinfolding

Well-Known Member
Dec 17, 2006
27,263
4,084
The South
✟121,561.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Why are Protestants so "either/or"? I never said I study only those who come after the apostles. We study the Bible, the writings of the apostles (which are not all contained in the NT), and those who study under them. Jesus promised that he would guide the apostles in ALL TRUTH. This included those who were successors to the apostles.

Honestly, it's like telling your wife "You look beautiful today!" And she comes back "Just today?".

I just said, "there you go" (in respects to you studying them).

I was just acknowledging what you said and not taking it any further in order to loose myself from the coversation. And because it always follows (the endless questions to get into wrangling) and I didnt care to.

I figured what could you possibly say if I just acknowledged what you desired to do and just said nothing much back to it?

The apostle acknowledges Jesus promise adressing "little children"

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Men can deceive, looking to seduce you to draw you after themselves

Doesnt mean you can't give an ear to something else its just you dont have to seek them out or believe everyone if the Spirit isnt opening either your ear or your heart to (Proverbs 14:7) Permits after an earful, if you cant perceive that in them best not hang around even though they seek to promote themselves to you.

You can see God performing this in Lydia towards His own apostles while gathering His own in through them

2571568
 
Upvote 0

Goatee

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.
Aug 16, 2015
7,585
3,621
59
Under a Rock. Wales, UK
✟77,615.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Divorced
I agree with his statement. I did not need the pope to tell me that. Hence I can think for myself. The issue is simply this, what the church wrong to excommunicate women for abortion? Do you believe the church has the authority to excommunicate people?

I have posted above post 2793, other than that, i cannot speak for the Pope
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,910
3,646
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟354,065.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Why are priests called Father even though they are not my biological father? Is it referring to a "spiritual father"? Because I have only one and a priest is not it.
It's a title. Those who are priests are our spiritual fathers.
The Lord's prayer is fine. It thinking your prayers will be better heard by reciting it over and over again. That is the issue.
Thinking that we think our prayers will be better heard by reciting them over and over again is an issue. We don't. That's you judging our hearts (again)
How is that possible? Did Joseph and Mary adopt or was there a different mother?
We believe, many of us, that Joseph was previously married, and had children before he married Mary. Conversely, they are cousins, because there's no word for 'cousin' in Aramaic. But it is possible for Jesus to have siblings who were not born by Mary. The Bible never says Mary had other children, and when it does, it's another Mary.
The word "until" in the original greek was "heôs hos" Strongs Greek #2193, meaning "as far as", "to which". Thus making it the appropriate word to use.

It also does not say she was a "perpetual virgin"?
“When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took his wife, but knew her not until she had borne a son; and he called his name Jesus.” (Matthew 1:24-25)

The Greek ‘heos’ (‘until’), however, does not necessarily mean that the state before the event does not continue after the event. In other words, these words do not necessarily convey a reversal or change of the situation before the use of those prepositions. Hence, Mary’s virginity was not necessarily lost after the birth of Jesus. There are many references which vindicate the truth of this. The list presented here is a sample: Genesis 8:7, 26:13, Numbers 20:17, Deuteronomy 2:15, 34:6, 2 Kings 6:25, 1 Chronicles 6:32, 2 Chronicles 21:15, 2 Chronicles 26:15, Judith 14:8, Judith 15:5, Tobit 2:4, Psalm 57:1, Psalm 72:7, Psalm 110:1, Psalm 123:2, Psalm 141:10, Psalm 142:7, Ecclesiastes 2:3, Song of Solomon 1:12, 2 Samuel 6:23, Isaiah 14:2, 33:23, Ezekiel 24:13, 1 Maccabees 5:54, Matthew 16:28, Matthew 28:20, Romans 8:22, 1 Corinthians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 15:25, Ephesians 4:13, 1 Timothy 4:13, 1 Timothy 6:14. All of these references show that the word ‘until’ does not necessarily indicate a reversal in the main clause.

Heos hou’ is not restricted only to a continuation or reversal of the main only since it also includes the possibility of concurrence and cessation. Besides Matthew 1:25, there are 14 instances of ‘heos hou’ or ‘heos hos’ that are translated ‘until’; there are 2 instances of ‘heos hou’ that are translated ‘while’; there are 2 instances of ‘heos otou’ (equivalent in meaning to ‘heos hou’) translated as ‘until’ and 2 instances of ‘heos otou’ being translated ‘while’. They are listed here in chronological order along with a commentary as to the likely interpretation of the four possible meanings (continuation, reversal, concurrence, or cessation).

“There have been certain folk who have wished to suggest that from this passage (Matt 1:25) that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph's obedience and to show also that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company....And besides this Our Lord Jesus Christ is called the first-born. This is not because there was a second or a third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to the precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or not there was any question of the second.” (John Calvin, Sermon on Matthew 1:22-25, published 1562)

“It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin....Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact.” (Weimer, The Works of Luther, English Transl. by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v.11,pp. 319-320; v. 6 p. 510.)

“He, Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb...This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.” (Ibid.)
[/quote]

The original greek word used is "menoun" G3304 greek strongs meaning "nay", "rather", or "on the contrary ". The same word used in Job 7:15, psalm 52:3, psalm 84:10, Luke 17:8, Luke 18:14 and was used in the context for correction. The original greek does not just say "more blessed".
[/quote]
menoun and menounge: rather, on the contrary
Original Word: μενοῦνγε
Part of Speech: Particle, Disjunctive Particle
Transliteration: menoun and menounge
Phonetic Spelling: (men-oon'-geh)
Short Definition: nay rather
Definition: nay rather; indeed, truly, really.
HELPS Word-studies
3304 menoúnge (from 3303 /mén, "indeed"; 3767 /oún, "therefore"; and 1065 /gé, "really") – properly, therefore really indeed. 3304 (menoúnge) is often translated, yea rather, indeed on the contrary.

Latin is not the issue. It is intentionally preaching in a language not everyone can understand. If nobody can understand what is being said, what is the point. Up until a few decades ago, latin was the only language used during a mass. To this day, some churches still do it. I have been to a few. The scripture is saying not to do that because it is useless. It would be better to only say 5 words that people can understand than go through an entire mass where nobody can understand anything.
What makes you think that Latin was a language not everyone can understand? It's not useless, because the Latin translation is precise. IT means the same thing everywhere, wheras translations of the Latin to the vernacular can be interpreted incorrectly.
Besides, the Mass is the same everywhere, with the exception of the homily. I spent two weeks in Spain this summer, and went to Mass nearly every day, and heard Mass in Catalunyan, Castillian, and Mallorquin. Knowing the order of the Mass, I had no problem understanding what was going on. I knew what readings were being read, and could prepare to listen to them in a different language. I daresay, if you went to Spain, and found a church for you and your family to go to, you would get very little out of it.
The Roman Catholic Church removing the Greek word "menoun" from Luke 11:28 and "heôs hos" in Matthew 1:23 are two examples.
No such thing was done. We translate them differently (see above).
 
Upvote 0

thecolorsblend

If God is your Father, who is your Mother?
Site Supporter
Jul 1, 2013
9,199
8,425
Gotham City, New Jersey
✟308,231.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
The Roman Catholic Church and many popes viewed abortion as an unforgivable sin and many women were excommunicated as a result.
An "unforgivable sin"? Please provide a source from the popes themselves about this.

By the by, people who commit abortions are excommunicated automatically.

Yet Pope Frances gave the Priests the authority to absolve that sin and show mercy. If the Pope is infallible in the moral department because he is guided by the Holy Spirit, then like the nature of God, it should remain constant. Because God does not make mistakes or changes his mind. So why is Pope Francis' position on the forgiveness of abortion different than the rest.

Here is a link to some video footage.

This is another occasion when I believe you have bad information. If a Catholic committed an abortion, previously they would need to contact the bishop in order to received back into communion. As a disciplinary matter, a priest wouldn't be able to help them very much with that.

What's changing (temporarily) is Pope Francis is allowing priests to reconcile people who have committed abortions without going through a bishop so as to speed their spiritual recovery up as a special act of mercy. The seriousness of the sin remains. What's changing, and all that's changing, is that a priest can now address the matter.
 
Upvote 0

patricius79

Called to Jesus Through Mary
Sep 10, 2009
4,186
361
✟21,391.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The part I bolded...the Bible does not always explain itself. That's why you and I have different understandings of John 6.

I believe that we should follow Scripture and hold fast to the traditions, as the Bible says. But in the case of John 6 we have the most emphatic passage in the New Testament about eating the Lord's Body.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Root of Jesse
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,910
3,646
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟354,065.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I just said, "there you go" (in respects to you studying them).

I was just acknowledging what you said and not taking it any further in order to loose myself from the coversation. And because it always follows (the endless questions to get into wrangling) and I didnt care to.

I figured what could you possibly say if I just acknowledged what you desired to do and just said nothing much back to it?

The apostle acknowledges Jesus promise adressing "little children"

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Men can deceive, looking to seduce you to draw you after themselves

Doesnt mean you can't give an ear to something else its just you dont have to seek them out or believe everyone if the Spirit isnt opening either your ear or your heart to (Proverbs 14:7) Permits after an earful, if you cant perceive that in them best not hang around even though they seek to promote themselves to you.

You can see God performing this in Lydia towards His own apostles while gathering His own in through them

2571568
In matters of faith and morals, we know what men we can turn to, and not be deceived. The Bible is not self-explanatory, as evidenced by the array of different interpretations you give. It is true that the Bible speaks to each person 'where they are', but that is not THE interpretation of a passage, it's AN interpretation of a passage. I'm sure you know that the literal sense of Scripture is not the only sense of Scripture.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,910
3,646
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟354,065.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I agree with his statement. I did not need the pope to tell me that. Hence I can think for myself. The issue is simply this, what the church wrong to excommunicate women for abortion? Do you believe the church has the authority to excommunicate people?
The Church does not excommunicate anyone, just as God doesn't send anyone to hell. They do it of their own free will. If you publicly go against the doctrine of the Church, you are excommunicated.
FWIW, that doesn't mean you cannot come back, should you choose. It means that, right now, at that moment, you are outside of communion with the Church. IT's a warning, not a death sentence. If you die in this state, then it's a death sentence.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.