Walter Williams on the pathology of racial problems in Baltimore, Chicago, Detroit and Ferguson

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... How does working at less than current minimum wage help anyone out of poverty, being that working a full-time job at minimum wage keeps a worker in poverty.
The answer is in that video. Please watch it.

Almost half of all black teenagers are unemployed. If they get any money, they have it given to them (typically government takes it from you and me, and gives it to the people they think should have it,) or they get it by illegal means. It is difficult to convince any black teen who chose the second method that $8/hr is better than $200/day, even when he is sitting in front of a judge and jury.
 
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Don't those people deserve a chance to make more money? If 2x is good, why isn't 4x twice as good?

If doubling your caloric intake from 900 to 1800 calories/day is good, why isn't quadrupling it to 3600 calories/day twice as good?

If increasing it is good, why is increasing it faster not good?

If accelerating a rocket ship to escape velocity is good, then why isn't accelerating it as rapidly as a bullet even better?

The answer to both is because it doesn't the system is ill-equipped to absorb that kind of shock.


Answering a question with a question? I had hoped you would consider the actual impact of what I asked.

There are reasons to have a minimum wage, but they have little or nothing to do with benefiting poor people (as described in the above video with Dr. Thomas Sowell.)

No, that isn't what he described. What he described was his attempt to investigate the side-effects of the minimum wage being met with lack of interest in finding the answer. On its own, his question is a worthwhile one to ask, but your assessment of his statement is incorrect. Additionally, history shows us that removing a minimum wage hurts the poor.

He showed that the Labor Dept. has no interest in improving the lives of the poor people using a minimum wage.

He didn't show anything like that.

There is more reason to think the minimum wage is motivated by racist intents than any intent to improve the circumstances of poor people.

This is only true if you're a partisan fool.

Why do you think a minimum wage helps people who are not working? How does it help them get a job?

It doesn't help them get a job. It helps the people who have a job maintain some semblance of self-reliance by establishing a floor below which employees can't undercut each other.

Eighty years ago, people were glad to get a job making a dollar a day. From that perspective, my grandfather told me that no one was worth $8 per hour! I guess he had heard something about that and was just itching to make his opinion known!

Eighty years ago was 1935, which was in the middle of the depression. When adjusted for inflation, $1 in 1935 is equal to $17.42 today, or about 2.5 hours at today's federal minimum wage. The first federal minimum wage was established in 1933 at $0.25/hr, which is equivalent to about $4.59/hr today.
 
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whatbogsends

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The answer is in that video. Please watch it.

So you're saying that i can simply post links to support my position and not have to actually answer things myself? Here i am thinking we're having a discussion rather than link-wars.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors...-effects-of-seattles-15-an-hour-minimum-wage/

http://www.raisetheminimumwage.com/pages/job-loss

http://www.dol.gov/minwage/mythbuster.htm

I could summarize the points in the articles, instead, i'll just instruct you to read them yourself.

Almost half of all black teenagers are unemployed. If they get any money, they have it given to them (typically government takes it from you and me, and gives it to the people they think should have it,) or they get it by illegal means. It is difficult to convince any black teen who chose the second method that $8/hr is better than $200/day, even when he is sitting in front of a judge and jury.

And how will paying them less than $8/hour change this perspective?
 
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You know we have Hillary Clinton as one of those "self anointed" elitist, ruling class people. She had a discussion with a "Black Lives Matter" guy who was intent on changing the attitudes of people, but could not get her away from, "No, we change the laws, then everyone is required to do as we say!"


That is the "Intent" aspect of minimum wage, and other such laws.
 
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I'm pretty sure you know that wasn't what iluvatar was saying...
It seems like a fair question, given that the minimum wage (using Iluvatar's standard) has doubled in real world terms over the intervening years.
 
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Who suggested making the minimum wage $27 per hour (other than the person who just prior said we should do away with the minimum wage)?
The reason we should not make it $27 is the same reason it should not have been instituted or ever raised. My first minimum wage job was for a little over a $1/hr. I did not have any perspective at the time, but only saw the immediate effect of having a few extra pennies!!!

So you're saying that i can simply post links to support my position and not have to actually answer things myself? Here i am thinking we're having a discussion rather than link-wars.
Was just on the other side of that very thing with someone else. However, I have made the point of the video in my text. On the other hand, I am asked if I was asking a question!!! We can both do better... :)

And how will paying them less than $8/hour change this perspective?
We can discuss how to change that. It is a separate issue, though. Causing half of ANY group to be unemployed because of the gov.program that "promises" to help them is where the problem lies. Dr. Sowell (35 years ago) confronted someone asking a similar question about why you enter that discussion in the middle.


Let us start looking at what caused this (not slavery, not Jim Crow, etc.,) and address how to fix it. At the same time, let us NOT make more mistakes that cause more or worse situations like these!

...Businesses are confiscating the majority of productivity of workers as profits rather than paying that productivity back as wages...
Have you ever run a business? Do you think an $8 employee costs the employer $8/hr?

I worked in the engineering office for a small municipality for a number of years. It was proven by straight-up comparison (on more than one occasion) that I produced in a week what would cost that city what they paid me in a year to get an outside firm to do. If someone making $8/hr. does not make a whole lot more for that employer than the $8 wage he gets, the employer may be looking to replace him!!!
 
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whatbogsends

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It seems like a fair question, given that the minimum wage (using Iluvatar's standard) has doubled in real world terms over the intervening years.

What it was introduced at wasn't the standard iluvatar described in her post.

Eighty years ago was 1935, which was in the middle of the depression. When adjusted for inflation, $1 in 1935 is equal to $17.42 today, or about 2.5 hours at today's federal minimum wage.
 
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iluvatar5150

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Are you recommending we go to $4.59 minimum wage ... so as to employ more people?

No. I'm illustrating how there's less of a difference between what his grandfather remembers and what's going on today than he realizes.


Let us start looking at what caused this (not slavery, not Jim Crow, etc.,) and address how to fix it. At the same time, let us NOT make more mistakes that cause more or worse situations like these!

How do you figure that Jim Crow and other racist policies didn't cause any of this? The biggest driver of growth of middle class wealth through the middle of the 20th century was home ownership, which blacks were largely shut out of.
 
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Was just on the other side of that very thing with someone else. However, I have made the point of the video in my text. On the other hand, I am asked if I was asking a question!!! We can both do better... :)

Other than the one post in which i responded to your video post, i've put forth discussion and answered your questions directly. I will strive to keep any negativity out of the discourse (i do realize that i tend to respond in kind when dealing with less than civil posters).

We can discuss how to change that. It is a separate issue, though. Causing half of ANY group to be unemployed because of the gov.program that "promises" to help them is where the problem lies. Dr. Sowell (35 years ago) confronted someone asking a similar question about why you enter that discussion in the middle.


Let us start looking at what caused this (not slavery, not Jim Crow, etc.,) and address how to fix it. At the same time, let us NOT make more mistakes that cause more or worse situations like these!

I watched the video. Sowell spoke in generalities and didn't provide facts to support his assertions.

Prior to government intervention in labor laws, working 16 hour days, 6 days a week in unsafe conditions and not being able to provide the basics was a reality. Is this something we should be trying to get back to?

Welfare did not cause unemployment. It was a response to the effects of long term and widespread unemployment.

Have you ever run a business? Do you think an $8 employee costs the employer $8/hr?

I worked in the engineering office for a small municipality for a number of years. It was proven by straight-up comparison (on more than one occasion) that I produced in a week what would cost that city what they paid me in a year to get an outside firm to do it. If someone making $8/hr. does not make a whole lot more for that employer than that $8, the employer may be looking to replace him!!!

No, i haven't run a business with workers. While a $8/hour employee obviously costs more than their wages alone, even with all costs of labor factored in, wages relative to productivity are at their lowest in 40 years. The argument i'm making is not that a worker who produces 8 dollars an hour of value should receive 8 dollars an hour compensation - those promoting wage equality still believe that an owner/employer is entitled to a portion of the productivity of their workers, else there would be no reason to hire workers. However, the wages for workers have not been keeping up with increased worker output - not even close.

"Though productivity (defined as the output of goods and services per hours worked) grew by about 74 percent between 1973 and 2013, compensation for workers grew at a much slower rate of only 9 percent during the same time period, according to data from the Economic Policy Institute."

http://www.theatlantic.com/business...ay-and-productivity-is-so-problematic/385931/

"Wages have fallen to a record low as a share of America’s gross domestic product. Until 1975, wages nearly always accounted for more than 50 percent of the nation’s G.D.P., but last year wages fell to a record low of 43.5 percent. Since 2001, when the wage share was 49 percent, there has been a steep slide.
...
For the great bulk of workers, labor’s shrinking share is even worse than the statistics show, when one considers that a sizable — and growing — chunk of overall wages goes to the top 1 percent: senior corporate executives, Wall Street professionals, Hollywood stars, pop singers and professional athletes. The share of wages going to the top 1 percent climbed to 12.9 percent in 2010, from 7.3 percent in 1979."


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/13/s...ductivity-climbs-but-wages-stagnate.html?_r=0
 
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Who suggested making the minimum wage $27 per hour (other than the person who just prior said we should do away with the minimum wage)?
Other than the one post in which i responded to your video post, i've put forth discussion and answered your questions directly. I will strive to keep any negativity out of the discourse (i do realize that i tend to respond in kind when dealing with less than civil posters).
I had asked a question, and had to ask it more than once. Had not been less than civil - was not really less than civil afterward!
 
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whatbogsends

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I had asked a question, and had to ask it more than once. Had not been less than civil - was not really less than civil afterward!

I am unsure how any of my posts to you were less than civil

You asked a straw man question. No one, other than yourself, was suggesting raising the minimum wage to $27. I've answered your question. I still haven't seen your answer to this question, which has been asked more than once (you claimed the answer was in the video, which i watched, and neither saw nor heard an answer to):

How does working at less than current minimum wage help anyone out of poverty, being that working a full-time job at minimum wage keeps a worker in poverty?
 
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... How does working at less than current minimum wage help anyone out of poverty, being that working a full-time job at minimum wage keeps a worker in poverty?
One learns to do things working on the job. (On-the-job training is focused, specific, intense and typically more useful than any classroom setting could be.) He learns things valuable to his future. I have worked for HALF what I could have made at an unskilled job, learned many things, and been able to do many things I was not able before, nor was I likely to learn all those things working the other unskilled job, making twice as much.

I know someone of whom it was said (by our mutual friend) that he did not know how to do anything. I mentioned that to my wife a couple of years ago, and she reminded me of it when the fellow was doing some better work, and trusted with some more complex tasks. She didn't understand, so I replied how he had been hanging around, and working with, that friend who told me, and had obviously learned a lot in those couple of years. There is potential if it is explored.

If someone thinks doing illegal activities for some nice money is OKAY, they need to consider how much of the money will be spent in legal costs, and how much of that "free time" they expect to enjoy will be spent behind bars.

I knew a young black kid (a neighbor) who did not know much of anything for a kid of 12. It was astounding! (I could give examples.) At one point, I asked him how expected to stay out of jail. It seems I saw him with a gang of teens a few years later, and have no reason to think he had done anything that would change his direction.
 
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I am unsure how any of my posts to you were less than civil...
Did not say they were, but that was not a good way to respond to a direct question about the minimum wage. If $15 is good for people who do not have any skills, why is $27 not better? The young and inexperienced could afford more things, and pay this terribly high cost they will bear as young people in America. It is because they are now expected (by the wording of the PP&ACA) to pay for Health Insurance that is intended to supplement old people and sick people! You simply asked who was asking a question I had just asked.
 
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Did not say they were, but that was not a good way to respond to a direct question about the minimum wage. If $15 is good for people who do not have any skills, why is $27 not better? The young and inexperienced could afford more things, and pay this terribly high cost they will bear as young people in America. It is because they are now expected (by the wording of the PP&ACA) to pay for Health Insurance that is intended to supplement old people and sick people! You simply asked who was asking a question I had just asked.

To be honest it didn't seem like a legitimate question. I've seen that question put forth by those unwilling to discuss the issue as an attempt at a "gotcha" question in the past. I'm not saying that you weren't being sincere in asking it, but i'm explaining my reaction and response to that question.
 
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OK. We may get some discussion going now. We can refrain from assuming what the other thinks.

The answer to the overriding question of motivation for taking a low wage job to do something of value is in my other post, and explains how I could produce a year's worth of value in a week's time. If someone that makes $8/hr does not produce more than twice that, it costs the employer for him to be there. The employer could go broke with a few of those guys around. They should produce 10 times to 50 times what they are paid, or there will be no job there for them!!!

I remember not being able to understand how furniture was designed or made, or how houses were designed or built. I have designed houses (been living in one of those for almost 30 years,) and designed and built furniture, and done many other things I did not understand at all when I was a teen. Was asked by a fellow what was wrong with his control panel that caused his well pump (handling a large complex) to short-cycle. In a few minutes, I pointed to the problem that saved him over $400 right that minute (that was 30 years ago.)

Others have turned their job experience into a career, making some things you may have a difficulty believing, and likely a difficult time understanding. My 93 year old friend (having a few health issues right now,) made prototypes of things that had never been before, using materials that had never been used before. He and I have enjoyed discussing and working on things of a complex nature, and working out difficulties on each others' projects! It is the basis of our good friendship.
 
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If you need more explanation, watch the movie, "Gran Torino." I do not suggest it for anything other than the main plot. There is a fellow who, not being a black youth, faced the same challenges in this world that a black male his age would face. It is a cultural problem. Though the two cultures are very different, they produce many of the same problems.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1205489/?ref_=fn_tt_tt_1

The bad language is a bit difficult to take, but there is a good story in there...
 
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Mr Williams ignores the decades of Jim Crow laws, the fact that even menial jobs now expect some level of education (that black teens have less of relative to white teens) and the fact that poor finances affect marriage stability more than marriage instability affects finances.

Maybe poverty manifests itself today differently than it did a century ago. Maybe it manifests itself differently in urban areas than in rural areas. But when you spend generations forcing a segment of the population into poverty (which is what our nation did, and continues to do on a more limited scale), it's not really fair to blame them for living in ghettos.

So why are the problems so much bigger 50 years after those laws were repealed?
 
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If you need more explanation, watch the movie, "Gran Torino." I do not suggest it for anything other than the main plot. There is a fellow who, not being a black youth, faced the same challenges in this world that a black male his age would face. It is a cultural problem. Though the two cultures are very different, they produce many of the same problems.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1205489/?ref_=fn_tt_tt_1

The bad language is a bit difficult to take, but there is a good story in there...
That was a good movie!
 
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