As all the dead in Hades rise on Judgment Day, why is Luke 16:19-31 cited as proof of eternal torment?

[Der Alte]

First of all Abraham was not in heaven he was in Sheol. The particular place he was in within Sheol is known as Abraham’s Bosom which was the place where the righteous go and the rich man wasn’t in the lake of fire he was in Hades which is the place of torment in Sheol where the wicked go. This isn’t heaven and hell it’s Sheol which is where both the righteous and the wicked went to await judgement day. Abraham’s Bosom is a place of paradise and Hades is a place of torture.

The water that the rich man was asking for was not the message and the portion right after the part you highlighted reveals that. “For/because I am tormented in this flame”. He’s asking for something to relieve him of his torment even just a tiny bit, it has nothing to do with his brothers. What he says afterwards was to try to save his brothers from the torment that he was in but what he said about the water was for the sole purpose of relieving him from the torment he was experiencing. That why he specifically said why he was asking for the water.

Abraham's bosom is NOT a place it is a position. The position of honor at a feast or banquet. Immediately to the right or in front of the host, who in this case is Abraham.
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Abraham's bosom is NOT a place it is a position. The position of honor at a feast or banquet. Immediately to the right or in front of the host, who in this case is Abraham.
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Abraham’s Bosom is generally accepted as the name of the place in Sheol where the righteous go. What you say is correct in that the bosom is often a place of honor in Jewish culture it is also used to indicate a place of comfort and rest. Abraham’s Bosom is typically used in reference to the place in Sheol where the righteous go.

 

[Der Alte]

Abraham’s Bosom is generally accepted as the name of the place in Sheol where the righteous go. What you say is correct in that the bosom is often a place of honor in Jewish culture it is also used to indicate a place of comfort and rest. Abraham’s Bosom is typically used in reference to the place in Sheol where the righteous go.

Not found in the Old Testament. Some denominations have decided that. In Luke 16:22 it is clearly the position.
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Bosom occurs 37 times in the OT not once does it refer to a place.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Not found in the Old Testament. Some denominations have decided that. In Luke 16:22 it is clearly the position.
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Bosom occurs 37 times in the OT not once does it refer to a place.

How many times is Gehenna used in reference to hell in the OT?

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Why do you say the parable is real, because it includes things that are known?
Can a person not use an illustration of something known, without the illustration being real?

Satan is a critical component of the parable. Is Satan real? Satan can be interchanged with any given devil who are all his own

People are a critical component of the parable, interchangeable with any of us, applicable to all of us. People, real.

And of course God Is Real

Man shall live by every word of God. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3 In order for this to be true the parable component for people is interchangeable

The Word Is A Parable. When God speaks He speaks to 2 parties, simultaneously, in inverse fashions. In other words what's good news for us is bad news for Satan

Have you reached a final conclusion - which you have declared correct - on which no open discussion on it is to be considered?

I believe we all live by every, emph. every Word of God

In order for that to be true, it's all real and applicable to all of us. Illustrations? No. Fanciful stories? No. Fairy tales? Definitely No.

God has spoken and Satan is therefore empowered to resist in everyone. All quite real. The tempter you have in your own mind is real. You just don't know it is all.

What the parables do is give us more flavor for the how's and why's of how these arrangements work

The simple question you might ask yourself is, do you really believe Satan enters your heart to steal the Word?

I don't care how you answer for yourself, because I already know it's real for both of us

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

The instant you concede to the fact of internal temptations via the tempter, it will hit home, strongly

Most believers get lulled into denying it happens to them

But some come out from under the ether of our adversary's denial of the Word

Blessings

I’m still contemplating the parable of the Sower as a blue print or model for all parable. But I agree about the internal temptations of man. James 1:13-15 informs us well on this matter:

”Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.“
‭‭James‬ ‭1‬:‭13‬-‭15‬ ‭ESV‬‬

James 1:13-15 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own de | English Standard Version 2016 (ES

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own de

bible.com

John 14:30 further establishes this internal tempting as we see the exact opposite of Jesus temptation:

”I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me,“
‭‭John‬ ‭14‬:‭30‬ ‭ESV‬‬

John 14:30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me | English Standard Version 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now

I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me

bible.com

”“I will not talk with you much longer. The ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me.“
‭‭John‬ ‭14‬:‭30‬ ‭ERV‬‬

John 14:30 “I will not talk with you much longer. The ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me. | Holy Bible: Easy-to-Read Version (ERV) | Download The Bible App Now

“I will not talk with you much longer. The ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me.

bible.com

”I will no more talk much with you, for the ruler of this world doth come, and in me he hath nothing;“
‭‭John‬ ‭14‬:‭30‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

John 14:30 I will no more talk much with you, for the ruler of this world doth come, and in me he hath nothing | Young's Literal Translation 1898 (YLT98) | Download The Bible App Now

I will no more talk much with you, for the ruler of this world doth come, and in me he hath nothing

bible.com

Thanks again for sharing. I have a bite of reading to do and praying for wisdom from God.

blessings

 

[Der Alte]

How many times is Gehenna used in reference to hell in the OT?

Not nice to ignore my questions then pose your own. Gehenna does not occur in the Hebrew OT. The Hebrew Gi ben hinnom does. Sheol translated "nether world" in the Jewish Publication Society English translation occurs 42 times.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I’m still contemplating the parable of the Sower as a blue print or model for all parable. But I agree about the internal temptations of man. James 1:13-15 informs us well on this matter:

”Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.“
‭‭James‬ ‭1‬:‭13‬-‭15‬ ‭ESV‬‬

There's no question from James that devils play a role in man's thoughts

James 3:
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

I do not consider the temptations of Jesus to be the same as ours for one critical reason, the same as you have cited. He had no sin and Satan, the "prince of this world" had nothing "in Him."

I might suggest that the temptations He engaged were and had to be external, not internal.

Jesus did not have to deal with lustful or illegal evil thoughts for example.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

There's no question from James that devils play a role in man's thoughts

James 3:
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

I do not consider the temptations of Jesus to be the same as ours for one critical reason, the same as you have cited. He had no sin and Satan, the "prince of this world" had nothing "in Him."

I might suggest that the temptations He engaged were and had to be external, not internal.

Jesus did not have to deal with lustful or illegal evil thoughts for example.

I agree He was not tempted from “within“ but I would not negate the reality of His humanity being tempted as our High Priest. Much like the testing of Adam and Eve, the second Adam’s tempting was very much real and authentic in the scope of its intent but His will remained completely surrendered to the will of His Father.

blessings

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I agree He was not tempted from “within“ but I would not negate the reality of His humanity being tempted as our High Priest. Much like the testing of Adam and Eve, the second Adam’s tempting was very much real and authentic in the scope of its intent but His will remained completely surrendered to the will of His Father.

blessings

I'd suggest being without sin is like, a major advantage that no one else has ever had

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

I'd suggest being without sin is like, a major advantage that no one else has ever had

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
I agree He was not tempted from “within“ but I would not negate the reality of His humanity being tempted as our High Priest. Much like the testing of Adam and Eve, the second Adam’s tempting was very much real and authentic in the scope of its intent but His will remained completely surrendered to the will of His Father.

blessings

Hi Believe. Question for you concerning the temptation of Jesus. Would you say the temptation of Adam/Eve was fueled from within or external? If external only, would you say the first Adam’s temptation was in like fashion as the second Adam‘s temptation? Just thinking out loud here.

blessings

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I would not negate the reality of His humanity being tempted as our High Priest. Much like the testing of Adam and Eve,

Some observations.

Jesus' temptations are outlined in the texts, so we know what they were, how they were performed. To go beyond that and say Jesus had lustful thoughts for example is a scriptural foul. Jesus was tempted like us with a major exception, being without sin. Now we can say that didn't diminish His humanity or we could say it enhanced it, but one thing is for sure, His temptations were not the same type of temptations. The devil has not taken us to the temple pinnacle and tempted us to jump off, for example.

It was even odder that the Holy Spirit "led" Jesus into temptations:

Matthew 4:1
Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

God tempts no one, right? But obviously the Spirit of God takes Jesus right up to that temptation line, and basically hands Him over to the devil to be tempted. No God tempts no one, but the devil does tempt everyone and God does lead us all to that point, early and often. Point being this is what then happens, to all of us:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Yes Virginia, we are sinners and we are so because the devil commits theft, a sin, in all of us. IN fact if we really believe this, I certainly do for myself from both scripture and experience, that we are tempted internally, beyond any doubt. So what does that make any of us? Just "me?" Nope. There was no "just me" ever on this planet except for one man, Jesus. If anyone finds themselves DENYING the Word, that Mark 4:15 does NOT happen to them, we are actually hearing the voice of the deceiver in them, speaking, and LYING.

Now we can take this simplicity to Adam and Eve. The instant God spoke to them Satan entered their hearts and stole from them, sinning in the process. They became sinners exactly at that point, and NOT when they ate the infamous fruit. That was at the tail end of the account, but the internal reality happened the instant after "Be fruitful and multiply" was spoken to them. And seeing this we should see it was not "just me" Adam or "just me" Eve. It was either of them with the tempter, internally working in them both. Deceiving them, disobeying.

It's called the "spirit of disobedience" in scriptures such as Eph. 2:2, linked directly to the prince of the power of the air, that would be Satan.

Adam and the tempter within him left the Garden. Eve and the tempter within her left the Garden.

God tolerated them both in the Garden til the full resorts of sin came about first in thought, then in word and culminated in deed.

When God entered their picture after the fact, God was not engaging "just me" Adam or Eve. God was also revealing Satan, the tempter within them both. They are no longer speaking as "just me" individuals. And all their actions are actions of slaves of the devil. Hiding themselves from God. Lying, deceiving, blaming anyone but the devil. These are all actions of the devil in them, written across their lips just as clear as a bell.

YET readers everywhere utterly fail to miss this simple point.

Why?

Do the math on "just me" and find out if you really believe what Jesus said is true.

People who blame and accuse Adam and Eve are and remain spiritually blinded

 

[Aaron112]

Whether purgatory exists is irrelevant to me.

If, as is the case, it is a false teaching, and there are so many more, it is important not to put any trust in those who teach it or who hold to it.

 

[Aaron112]

I remember that Paul said we must not put our faith in men, but in God instead. That is why I put no faith in any Pope or leader.

If something from a man is false, and someone chooses to believe it, oops!

 

[Aaron112]

so that belief in God vanished almost overnight?

..... over thousands of years...... almost at the end now.

 

[BNR32FAN]

In Christ's prophecy/parable the Pharisees would not believe the risen Lazarus (John 12:9-11) and therefore, contrary to their belief Abraham would prevent them from descending into Hades, a child of Abraham is depicted as paying the penalty for his sin. The conversation he has with Abraham lasts only a minute. Nothing is said to be eternal. We know all in Hades come out on Judgment Day. So how is it believers cite this as proof for eternal torment? Rather, it fits the 1st century apostolic concept of hades as a place where souls can repent and live according to God (1 Pet. 4:6):

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-15 NKJ)


24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:24-29 NKJ)


22 “So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 “And being in torments (931 βάσανος basanos) in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, `Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) in this flame (5395 φλόξ phlox).’
25 “But Abraham said, `Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted (3870 παρακαλέω parakaleo) and you are tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). (Lk. 16:22-25 NKJ)

The Rich Man does not act like someone who is irreedemably wicked and is suffering Eternal Torment. So how can Bible Believers cite this as proof of eternal torment?

1)His demeanor is not that of a wicked eternally condemned man, he does not blaspheme either Abraham, Lazarus or God even when he doesn’t get what he asked for.
2)Abraham calls him “son…child” displaying affection which implies the rich man is not irredeemably wicked.
3)Both Abraham and many redeemed with him WANT to cross over into Hades to lessen the torment of the rich man. That would be rebellion against God’s Judgment and therefore implies the rich man ultimately would be saved.
4)The symbolic language implies a “torment” with a goal beyond retributive justice:

If the “torment” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) is the classic idea of hell-fire, the Rich Man would ask for a lot more than a little water to cool his tongue. Odunao here refers to mental anguish (Luke 2:48; 16:25; Acts 20:38). Its antithesis is parakaleo ‘to be consoled for sorrow’ like Lazarus (Lk. 16:25).

Christ chose the word “torment” (931 βάσανος basanos) to describe the Torment in Hades:

Meaning: 1) a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal 2) the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth.-Strong’s Concordance



This “torment” is the kind that brings truth to the surface, resulting in “anguish” and “sorrow” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao cp. Acts 20:38) for sin. The imagery of purging from sin is common in the Old Testament (Zech. 13:9; Ps. 51:7; 66:10; Isa. 1:25; 4:4; 6:7; 48:10; Ezek. 24:13; Dan. 11:35):

2 “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderer’s soap.
3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the LORD An offering in righteousness. (Mal. 3:2-3 NKJ)

In Luke 16:24 the “flame” (5395 φλόξ phlox) causes the “agony” or “anguish” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). The Rich Man is being purged (Mal. 3:3; Job 23:10; Zech. 13:9 cp. 1 Pet. 1:7) by the “flame of God’s inspection”: “His eyes like a flame” (Rev. 1:14; 2:18; 19:12). The “flame” is the “visible aspect of a fire that springs upward and is usually orange”(Logos Bible Sense Lexicon). God is revealed in the “flame” (Ex. 3:2; Judges 13:20; Isa. 66:15 LXX; Acts 7:30; 2 Thess. 1:8).

From all this one could reasonably infer the “torments of Hades” are designed to bring the true person to the surface, liberate their free will from all bondage to sin and delusion. After suffering for their sins “judged according to men in the flesh”, if they choose to believe the gospel preached to them in Hades they will “live according to God in the Spirit” apart from any torment, eagerly waiting for the Second Coming of Christ when they will rise with the dead in Christ.

23 It was necessary therefore that the copies of the things in the heavens should be cleansed with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ hasn't entered into holy places made with hands, which are representations of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place year by year with blood not his own,
26 or else he must have suffered often since the foundation of the world. But now once at the end of the ages, he has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation. (Heb. 9:23-28 RPTE)

If what you’re saying here is true then I would imagine that everyone would repent and be saved because it doesn’t stand to reason that anyone would knowingly refuse to repent under such circumstances. But there are several passages that clearly state that not everyone will be saved.

 

[CoreyD]

Satan is a critical component of the parable. Is Satan real? Satan can be interchanged with any given devil who are all his own

People are a critical component of the parable, interchangeable with any of us, applicable to all of us. People, real.

And of course God Is Real

Man shall live by every word of God. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3 In order for this to be true the parable component for people is interchangeable

The Word Is A Parable. When God speaks He speaks to 2 parties, simultaneously, in inverse fashions. In other words what's good news for us is bad news for Satan

Satan is not in the parable.
Something in the parable, represents Satan.
In other words, an analogy is used that gives a representation of what is indeed the reality.

It doesn't mean a parable isn't real. The parable is very real and presents that we have a very real enemy adversary and we have an equally Greater advocate Savior who is the ENEMY of our enemy.

The parable is a representation of the reality being conveyed.

For example, a spot of red ink was on my white shirt, and I used Super White detergent, and the red spot was completely gone, leaving a clean spotless white shirt.
I used that analogy, to make the point that God removes sin that is like scarlet.

The analogy is not real, though it uses something that we can relate to, because it can and does happen, but the point I am trying to make, is the actual reality.
The parable is not the actual reality.

The birds eating up the seed, is not the actual reality, even though we can relate to it, because it can happen, and does happen.
It's an analogy representing the actual reality - the point that Satan takes away the word from the heart.

I believe we all live by every, emph. every Word of God

In order for that to be true, it's all real and applicable to all of us. Illustrations? No. Fanciful stories? No. Fairy tales? Definitely No.

God has spoken and Satan is therefore empowered to resist in everyone. All quite real. The tempter you have in your own mind is real. You just don't know it is all.

What the parables do is give us more flavor for the how's and why's of how these arrangements work

The simple question you might ask yourself is, do you really believe Satan enters your heart to steal the Word?

I don't care how you answer for yourself, because I already know it's real for both of us

I think you have confused the issue.
Did I say Satan and the word are not real?
I'm sure I did not.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Satan is not in the parable.
Something in the parable, represents Satan.

I prefer conversations that don't begin with circular logic. You're saying Satan's not in the parable, but is in the parable.

I'd agree that the parable without the disclosures by Jesus to the disciples would not be understandably linked to Satan. It's a 2 part deal. Part 2 cuts to the chase a little more. We still have to roll up our sleeves to get through the details.

But the very basic point is people and Satan are in every parable

 

[CoreyD]

I prefer conversations that don't begin with circular logic. You're saying Satan's not in the parable, but is in the parable.

I'd agree that the parable without the disclosures by Jesus to the disciples would not be understandably linked to Satan. It's a 2 part deal. Part 2 cuts to the chase a little more. We still have to roll up our sleeves to get through the details.

Perhaps the way we speak may cause you to misunderstand, and think something is circular, when it is not.
Satan is not in the parable, as in, there is no mention of Satan in the parable.
The analogy is used with the things in mind, one of which is Satan, but as you said, until the explanation is given, Satan is absent, both in the parable, and to the listeners.

So, I put some kindergarten children to sit, and hear a story.
Hey Diddle Diddle. The cat and the fiddle. The cow jumped over the moon. The little girl laughed to see such fun, and the dish ran away with the spoon.
I asked the children was John Brown in the story?
They'll laugh and say, No.

They would be correct, won't they.

But the very basic point is people and Satan are in every parable

People have opinions, but the scriptures do not agree with these opinion.
I know you are trying to insinuate that Satan is involved in something someone does, but that is your opinion, and not scripture.

In fact, the illustration of the lost coin which is only one of dozens, has nothing to do with Satan, even if people assert that Satan lost the coin.
To me, that is just taking the Bible and injecting whatever we feel like, because God will not strike us dead for doing these unimportant and non-beneficial things.

I feel sorry for most of the people who go to church.
It saddens me, what people actually allows Satan to do, but I take comfort in 2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12.
This reminds me not to feel too sad, but rather, feel pity as Jesus did, and try to help those looking for the truth.

@Aaron112 understand me, and he doesn't say much, but what he says I get.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Perhaps the way we speak may cause you to misunderstand, and think something is circular, when it is not.

Who's "we?"

Satan is not in the parable

Oh, you mean this parable doesn't mention Satan?

Mark 4:
13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
14 The sower soweth the word.
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

In fact, the illustration of the lost coin which is only one of dozens, has nothing to do with Satan

13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

I might suggest the theft happens in ways that can't be perceive, but are shown by denying Satan is really involved in every parable, as Jesus says

It's a real thing. But the blinded by the god of this world have no clue

We're supposed to have the inside scoop, IF we're not in denial