Jewish traditions not in the Bible.

Sammy-San · Feb 27, 2015

Judaism doesnt just involve the Old Testament traditions, but also other religious writings and cultural customs of the Jewish ethnicity. For example, some Jewish religious practices not mentioned in the Bible are praying 3 times a day to jerusalem, Halakhah and other traditions of the rabbis (like Talmud), women and wearing certain headcoverings, etc.

Since Messianic Judaism is a faith that involves both the practices of Judaism (which christians dont follow) and a faith in Jesus, to what extend do practices of Judaism that dont exist in the Bible, pertain to this religion? The Jewish holidays of the Bible from the Old Covenant, are practiced in messianic judaism, which makes it very distinct and unique from most Christian sects. But do any, and if so, which, Jewish practices do Messianic Jews follow that arent in the bible and are just a part of later Jewish tradition?

visionary · Feb 27, 2015

Daniel prayed towards Jerusalem as was his custom.

pshun2404 · Feb 27, 2015

visionary said:
Daniel prayed towards Jerusalem as was his custom.

Indeed he did (but it was his custom not Torah) and he did it three times a day.

So many things not commanded by God became "custom" (in other wrords "tradition") which are not in themselves evil (for they are not against God and in a way honor Him) but are not mitzvot either. Here are a few...

Attending synagogue or Temple on the 7th day Sabbath

Holding a communal Seder at the Temple on the 15th of Nisan (actually the day after the Passover and the 1st day of Unleavened Bread)

The addition of the egg and the kharoset on the Passover plate

And there are more but these are three

Now again these are not things that have to be stopped (absurd), just not required...

Paul

visionary · Feb 27, 2015

"Traditions not found in the Bible"... Praying towards Jerusalem is found.

Sammy-San · Feb 27, 2015

visionary said:
"Traditions not found in the Bible"... Praying towards Jerusalem is found.

True, but that verse didnt say Daniel did ritualistic prayers like pray 3 times, which is what many Jews do today. Do Messianic Jews do that?

Truthfrees · Feb 27, 2015

Hi Superhero Sam,

Why do you want a list of the Jewish traditions that aren't found in the written Torah?

Did you know most ARE found in the Oral Torah?

Did you know every Christian denomination has traditions not found anywhere in the Bible, or in the Oral Torah.

Where did they come from?

:wave:

Truthfrees · Feb 27, 2015

Did you know that according to the SOF for this forum (http://www.christianforums.com/t7797477/):

"We consider Messianic Judaism to be a completely valid form of Judaism. And although there are different expressions of Messianic Judaism, we believe Messianic Judaism; a Judaism committed to Yeshua the Messiah that embraces the covenantal responsibility of life and identity rooted in Torah, expressed in tradition, and renewed and applied in the context of the New Covenant, to be the true expression of Judaism that the scriptures and the God of Yisrael intended.

We strongly affirm the uniqueness and centrality of Yeshua as Messiah, but we avoid defining ourselves in contrast with traditional Judaism. We maintain a supportive stance toward Jewish history and the current Jewish community, even as we disagree with it in our view of Yeshua. We encourage learning Jewish history and values.

We seek to advance the gospel, the good news of Messiah, among our Jewish people in ways that respect and support Jewish identity."

:wave:

IOW, this forum is to advance the gospel of Messiah in ways that respect and support Jewish identity, Jewish history, the current Jewish community, Jewish values.

The 2nd paragraph says we avoid defining ourselves in CONTRAST to traditional Judaism.

My questions to you are:
1. Are you trying to define MJ or Christianity in contrast to traditional Judaism?
2. Are you here to respect and support the Jewish community?

May you find a warm supportive heart toward our Jewish brothers and Judaism.

:wave:

Sammy-San · Feb 27, 2015

Truthfrees said:
Hi Superhero Sam,

Why do you want a list of the Jewish traditions that aren't found in the written Torah?

Did you know most ARE found in the Oral Torah?

Did you know every Christian denomination has traditions not found anywhere in the Bible, or in the Oral Torah.

Where did they come from?

I dont want a list of Jewish traditions that are outside the OT, but I'm curious about which of those traditions Messianic Judaism practices. It's not because I'm trying to argue that Messianic Judaism isnt Judaism because its different from other sects, but I'm just curious about the customs of Messianics.

Truthfrees · Feb 27, 2015

Superhero Sam said:
I dont want a list of Jewish traditions that are outside the OT, but I'm curious about which of those traditions Messianic Judaism practices. It's not because I'm trying to argue that Messianic Judaism isnt Judaism because its different from other sects, but I'm just curious about the customs of Messianics.

Thanks for clarifying.

I'm interested in this list then too.

:wave:

Lulav · Feb 27, 2015

The reason for the praying three times a day occurred after the destruction of the 2nd temple. It is in place of the sacrifices made three times a day. When there is no temple then prayers are used in substitution. It is biblical.

Hosea: Return, O Israel, unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast stumbled in thine iniquity Take with you words, and return unto the LORD; say unto Him: 'Forgive all iniquity, and accept that which is good; so will we render for bullocks the offering of our lips.

Messianic Jews who have come out of Conservative Judaism may do this as well as other things, like laying teffilin, saying certain blessings for certain things and others. It varies by the individual, not congregation mostly.

ContraMundum · Feb 27, 2015

What's wrong with keeping traditions and customs anyway? Is there anything wrong with that if they don't overthrow the teachings of the Bible?

Praying thrice daily as per Jewish custom is a good minimum. The Christian monks did (and do) it nine times a day.

The Churches have heaps of non-Biblical customs- like "membership" or "mid-week Bible study cell group" whatever...etc. Surely this is not a problem.

ContraMundum · Feb 27, 2015

Lulav said:
Messianic Jews who have come out of Conservative Judaism may do this as well as other things, like laying teffilin, saying certain blessings for certain things and others. It varies by the individual, not congregation mostly.

I'm a teffilin laying, shema praying, yahrzeit observing, Daf Yomi kind of guy- with my 1928 BCP in the other hand. Must confuse both Jew and Christian alike but I am what I am and do what I do. None of my congregants in any of the churches I've served have ever had a problem with it once they have it explained. Quite the opposite in fact. They support it.

anisavta · Feb 27, 2015

ContraMundum said:
What's wrong with keeping traditions and customs anyway? Is there anything wrong with that if they don't overthrow the teachings of the Bible?

Praying thrice daily as per Jewish custom is a good minimum. The Christian monks did (and do) it nine times a day.

The Churches have heaps of non-Biblical customs- like "membership" or "mid-week Bible study cell group" whatever...etc. Surely this is not a problem.

Here here!!!
I've always chuckled at those who make such a big deal of someone else's customs, and yet have a laundry list of their own. And everyone does. That's just how we function.

Hoshiyya · Feb 28, 2015

Superhero Sam said:
Judaism doesnt just involve the Old Testament traditions, but also other religious writings and cultural customs of the Jewish ethnicity. For example, some Jewish religious practices not mentioned in the Bible are praying 3 times a day to jerusalem, Halakhah and other traditions of the rabbis (like Talmud), women and wearing certain headcoverings, etc.

Since Messianic Judaism is a faith that involves both the practices of Judaism (which christians dont follow) and a faith in Jesus, to what extend do practices of Judaism that dont exist in the Bible, pertain to this religion? The Jewish holidays of the Bible from the Old Covenant, are practiced in messianic judaism, which makes it very distinct and unique from most Christian sects. But do any, and if so, which, Jewish practices do Messianic Jews follow that arent in the bible and are just a part of later Jewish tradition?

"to what extend do practices of Judaism that dont exist in the Bible, pertain to this religion"

Great question.

Are cats mentioned in scripture?
No.
But do they exist?
Yes.

There is no Judaism, and can be no Judaism, without tradition, since the Torah cannot be kept without tradition. When does Shabbat begin ?
How, where and what is Orelah ? How to eat Kosher ? How to conduct a wedding ?
None of these things are fully answered in Torah.

There can be no Orthodox Judaism without Tradition, and likewise, there can be no Messianic Judaism without Tradition.
In fact most Messianics keep more Tradition than they even know, all the while slandering the same Rabbis that preserved these Traditions.

Do you really think God would give us the Written Torah, and not give us an explanation of it?
And furthermore, punish us for not keeping its laws, when its laws cannot even be kept?

Lulav · Feb 28, 2015

Hoshiyya said:
"to what extend do practices of Judaism that dont exist in the Bible, pertain to this religion"

Great question.

Are cats mentioned in scripture?
No.
But do they exist?
Yes.

Some believe they are mentioned, in the book of Baruch.

Sammy-San · Mar 1, 2015

ContraMundum said:
What's wrong with keeping traditions and customs anyway? Is there anything wrong with that if they don't overthrow the teachings of the Bible?

Praying thrice daily as per Jewish custom is a good minimum. The Christian monks did (and do) it nine times a day.

The Churches have heaps of non-Biblical customs- like "membership" or "mid-week Bible study cell group" whatever...etc. Surely this is not a problem.

Why do some people say praying like that is vain repetition?

aniello · Mar 1, 2015

Superhero Sam said:
Why do some people say praying like that is vain repetition?

Reasonable question.

Some folks recite or respond/pray by blind rote.

Others pray with Kavanah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .

It seems up to the individual. I've heard "vain repetition" in both Shul and church.

Sometimes, about all folks can do is 'show up', whether shul or church. At my age and condition, I admit I'm oft times only able to 'show up'.

For those who accuse us of mere 'vain repetition', I have always asked them just which things in our liturgy are mere "vain repetition". It has been extremely rare the person has even the vaguest idea of what they speak of.

visionary · Mar 1, 2015

Does that make the Lord's Prayer a vain repetition? I think vain repetition has more to do with "without thought" repeating phrases, like they have some conjuring power. Can the Lord's Prayer be done in vain? yes, when it is done without thought. Can the Lord's Prayer be powerful, yes, when it is done with serious thoughts of how it applies to one's life. The Lord looks at the heart and there sees the difference.

ContraMundum · Mar 2, 2015

Superhero Sam said:
Why do some people say praying like that is vain repetition?

Because they don't understand what's going on and mis-apply those words from the Gospel.

Truthfrees · Mar 2, 2015

aniello said:
Reasonable question.

Some folks recite or respond/pray by blind rote.

Others pray with Kavanah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .

It seems up to the individual. I've heard "vain repetition" in both Shul and church.

Sometimes, about all folks can do is 'show up', whether shul or church. At my age and condition, I admit I'm oft times only able to 'show up'.

For those who accuse us of mere 'vain repetition', I have always asked them just which things in our liturgy are mere "vain repetition". It has been extremely rare the person has even the vaguest idea of what they speak of.

Well said.

When someone sings their favorite song over and over, is that vain repetition?

As you said, it's what's in the heart.

"Tohu" is sometimes translated "vain".

"Tohu" means nothingness as far as quality.

There might be sounds or sights but they're meaningless because nothing of value has been made out of them.

Same with our prayers or liturgy.

We can make something heartfelt and beautiful out of it if we engage our heart.

Thanks for the Kavanah link.

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