Eternal fire

Ripheus27

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Illicit is the inference from Revelations 20:10, "And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire, where also had been cast the Beast and the False Prophet, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," combined with 20:15, "Anyone whose name was not found written in the Book of Life was thrown into the Lake of Fire," to the conclusion

(Traditional inferno theory) Anyone whose name was not found written in the Book of Life was tormented day and night forever and ever.​

The three great evils (aside from Death and Hell) cast into the inferno are all supernatural beings. It is not clear, then, that the natural beings (reprobate humans) cast into this will be tormented forever and ever; the text does not, in fact, say this. What it does say is that the reprobate will be kept out of Zion later, which suggests that their punishment is, indeed, forever and ever, and a disgrace to them--for they are everlastingly locked out of the Eternal City--but not that the physical torture of the Lake of Fire is the sole, or all-encompassing, component of this punishment.

On the other hand, Christ Himself does say that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth both for those thrown into the "blazing furnace" as well as those locked out of the City (Matthew 13:42 & Matthew 8:12). Does this imply that the only thing outside the City is the Lake of Fire? Probably not. For strangely, the Lake of Fire actually has to be inside the City, because that is where Christ is present and remember, the Devil and his two highest servants are eternally tormented in the presence of the Lamb (meaning the Lake of Fire is eternally present before the Lord in the City). So if wicked humanity is kept out of the City in the end, then this part of humanity can't be sealed in the Lake of Fire forever.

We are told (Psalm 112:10), "The wicked will see and be vexed, they will gnash their teeth and waste away; the longings of the wicked will come to nothing." Indeed, the major portion of the eternal punishment of the damned appears not to consist in being physically tortured but in being emotionally defeated by exclusion from the City. The "fire" period of their retribution will not go on eternally (though it might be resumed from time to time, so that, in the sum of the future, it would be counted to infinity), but neither will the punishment of the damned ever end.

Also to be considered:

(Analogical inferno theory) The reason for calling the punishment of the damned "eternal fire" is to express that, in eternity, the damned are punished with something that is the equivalent, in the dimension of eternity, of fire in the mortal realm.​

I.e. the eternal fire is something that exists in the afterlife that is comparatively as painful as fire is in this life. It's like saying that there will be colors or shapes or sounds in the hereafter that are unlike any we can perceive in this world.

EDIT: Christ also says that He'll send the damned into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. However, this doesn't mean that the damned will be in this fire for eternity, only that the fire is of a kind that lasts forever (and is used to forever punish the three unholiest ones).
 
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southcountry

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Those who are not written in the book of life will be cast into the fire with the beast. We will all be resurrected. The good , the bad, and the ugly. But it will be for a moment. Just long enough to witness judgement. Then all will be transformed. Some will be tossed into the lake of fire, others will inherit the new city.

What is the lake of fire? Well, we are in the "lake" right now. Judgement day will happen on the other side. We will be seeing it from the perspective of John.

Revelation 15:2
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.


This is what Jesus meant when he said:



Mark 12:36
For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.


Satan and his fallen angels are in this realm with us. They are in the "details" so to speak. We cant see them, but they know the intricate workings of it and that is where they exist. This is how they can influence our thoughts and actions. Time is of no object to them, neither is distance.....They can roam the cosmos. They are ancient and were there when God created everything, so they do have a lot of power and knowledge....They know each one of us better than we know ourselves!!!

But, they are trapped here! They will only be let out long enough to face judgement, then cast back into their habitation to burn along side the elemental world....in fact it will be the collapse of the quantum world that brings down our elements.

You see, the four spirits of God are the foundations of this firmament (sea), they do as they are commanded. The dragon is contained therein.

Isaiah 27 In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

Psalm 104:26
There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein.
 
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RevelationTestament

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he three great evils (aside from Death and Hell) cast into the inferno are all supernatural beings.
Why do you think the false prophet is "supernatural?" I see no indication of that in the sriptures. He is plain man who has led the world in error for over 1260 years.
 
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rstrats

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Ripheus27,
re: "Illicit is the inference from Revelations 20:10, 'And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire, where also had been cast the Beast and the False Prophet, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever,'"


The KJV only says that the devil will be tormented for ever.
 
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Ripheus27

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Granted, but I doubt I'm going to argue from the KJV right now.

Also, I forgot about the scripture that speaks of the smoke of the torment inflicted on those who worship the Beast going up forever and ever, that these worshipers have no rest day or night or something. Now my question would be: is every sinner a Beast-worshiper? (They can't be, else no sinner would be able to repent.)
 
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A

AlephBet

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2 Timothy 2

11 Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

John 5

22 “The Father doesn’t judge anyone. He has entrusted judgment entirely to the Son 23 so that everyone will honor the Son as they honor the Father.

John 8

You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one.

Matthew 12

And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

Faith recognizes the Spirit of God as Holy. Blasphemy denies the existence of the Spirit at all. Faith is the only requirement. Jesus cannot disown himself.

We are him.
 
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Der Alte

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Ripheus27,
re: "Illicit is the inference from Revelations 20:10, 'And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire, where also had been cast the Beast and the False Prophet, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever,'"

The KJV only says that the devil will be tormented for ever.

You are mistaken.

Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

Even if you find a version which does not say "they" the verb translated "they will be tormented" is a Future, Passive, Indicative, first, Plural. "Will be tormented" refers to all three; devil, beast and false prophet. The false prophet is a person.
 
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RevelationTestament

Our God is a consuming fire.
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Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

Even if you find a version which does not say "they" the verb translated "they will be tormented" is a Future, Passive, Indicative, first, Plural. "Will be tormented" refers to all three; devil, beast and false prophet. The false prophet is a person.
:thumbsup:
He is the prophet of the beast. The beast is the earthly kingdom. Daniel 7. The beast of Revelation incorporates all the parts of the four beasts before it in Daniel 7, and still lives in the Roman aristocracy, curia, etc, through which the dragon deceived the world.
 
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Der Alte

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:thumbsup:
He is the prophet of the beast. The beast is the earthly kingdom. Daniel 7. The beast of Revelation incorporates all the parts of the four beasts before it in Daniel 7, and still lives in the Roman aristocracy, curia, etc, through which the dragon deceived the world.

Thank you for the new age contribution.
 
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RevelationTestament

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Well, it's probably even less valid to infer the literal eternal torture of all the damned from what would have to be the metaphorical eternal torture of a social system.
Did I infer that?
I'm not sure why you bring this up. But, I will say, that I appear to agree with you that the punishment is not necessarily eternal in time, but can be eternal in scope. I'm kinda surprised that you seem to pick up on this - independently perhaps? I will say that this is actually reflected in our D & C 19 scripture:

5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.
 
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RevelationTestament

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Thank you for the new age contribution.
How so? What "new age" do you infer - "new age" Christianity? I am hardly new age in that sense. I just believe that this scriptural prophecy has been fulfilled. Indeed, Revelation says that the mystery of Babylon would "shortly come to pass" so it started long ago and lasted for 1260 years. It seems Christians realize the truth of the historicist day to year interpretation when it comes to prophesying the Messiah of Daniel 9, but think it is "new age" mysticism or something when it comes to the rest of Daniel and Revelation. I would hardly call the historicist protestants "new age" lol - more like those of the "great awakening." But to each their own I guess.
 
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Ripheus27

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Did I infer that?

No, I was just juxtaposing your interpretation of the False Prophet with the problem of the OP.

But, I will say, that I appear to agree with you that the punishment is not necessarily eternal in time, but can be eternal in scope. I'm kinda surprised that you seem to pick up on this - independently perhaps? I will say that this is actually reflected in our D & C 19 scripture

I did in a thread like a year or a year and a half ago (I think) argue that "eternal" in "eternal punishment" might refer not to the duration of retribution but to the intensity of this, like hell might be a single second of absolutely infinite pain maybe. However, I brought this idea up again in this thread after reading you (I think it was) in a different thread bring up the relevant LDS doctrine.
 
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Der Alte

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No, I was just juxtaposing your interpretation of the False Prophet with the problem of the OP.

I did in a thread like a year or a year and a half ago (I think) argue that "eternal" in "eternal punishment" might refer not to the duration of retribution but to the intensity of this, like hell might be a single second of absolutely infinite pain maybe. However, I brought this idea up again in this thread after reading you (I think it was) in a different thread bring up the relevant LDS doctrine.

If 'eternal' in 'eternal punishment' refers to a single second of absolutely infinite pain, does "eternal" in "eternal life" refer to a single second of absolutely infinite pleasure?
 
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Ripheus27

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If 'eternal' in 'eternal punishment' refers to a single second of absolutely infinite pain, does "eternal" in "eternal life" refer to a single second of absolutely infinite pleasure?

No, but I don't think eternal life is about pleasure as opposed to the pain of damnation, either. I think it means our awareness of time will stop being moment-by-moment but encompass all sempiternity at once. This might be something that makes us very happy, but it might make us feel something greater than happiness too.

EDIT: Th main reason I argued for the possible "single moment of infinite intensity" description of hellfire was

(a) to meet the infinity requirement of punishment for offense against an infinite God, and

(b) to meet the moral requirement that sentient beings not have their entire lives be painful.​

On the other hand, it would neither dishonor God, that He would give us happiness of infinite duration, nor would it dishonor morality in itself, for us to be happy forever (provided that the reason we're happy is a good one).
 
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