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Obama Equates ISIS to Crusades

AMDG

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Separating the wheat from the tares is not our job.



Oh, come off it. If you are "insulted" by this (and I'm not fooled by a second by your euphemistic use of the term "many" when you mean "me"), I invite you to consider the Publican and the Pharisee.

Surprise! I just consider the source of the inaccurate information. Consider it a rather stupid remark. However, it does seem that many are insulted. The Rev. Franklin Graham, the president of the Catholic League, Bill Donahue, many of the reporters note the stupidity of the comment, same with the Muslim scholar.

Just because Obama wants to believe in the hate of Rev. Jeremiah Wright, doesn't make it so.
 
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Lukaris

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Let's see, the crusades were a violent reply to centuries of Moslem aggressions from the 7th to the 11th centuries. As indicated by the Arabs acquiring naval skills from conquered Christian nations:

"No Arab traveled by sea save those who did so without Umar's knowledge & were punished by him for it. Thus it remained until Muawiyah's reign (mid 7th c.)....They wished to wage holy war by sea. " (from an abridged version of: The Muqaddimah by Ibn Khaldun, 14th c. p.209)

Further evidence notes that this went on for centuries since:

"They fell upon the European Christian rulers making massacres in their realms. This happened in the days of Banu Abi l-Husayn.." (the Kalbite governors of Sicily in the later 10th to early 11th c.) from the Muqaddimah p. 210 c. 1967 Princeton Univ. Press isbn 0-691-01754-9.


Centuries of aggression & then the crusades (which were horrible). When was the last crusade? Over 500 years ago? When was the last act of Islamic terror (yes, I know inflicted most often on other Muslims) about 5 hours ago? These are truly synchronous movements.


"The Arabs were at first not skilled in seafaring & navigation, whereas the Byzantines & European Christians....were...The royal & gov't authority of the Arabs became established at that time (Muawiyah's rerign). The non Arab nations became servants of the Arabs.." (p.209 of the Muqaddimah).
 
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Gxg (G²)

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President Obama is not a great President, but he has fruits to show that aren't always apparent in his detractors.
I think where others often seem to miss is that the president is no different than other Christians who grew up in multi-cultural backgrounds and he has truly indeed done A LOT of wonderful things (even though he has been flawed in many respects) - several bills that have helped out differing groups of people and opened the market up in amazing ways - and we as believers really should learn to honor him better since there are a lot of amazing things he has done which are noteworthy (more shared in Page 5 of In Defense of Obama | Rolling Stone ).. Even my great grand-father (after witnessing a century of the world and seeing politics all around even when working as a sailor on the docks of the Panama Canal) can still appreciate the president/complicated situations and note what others should be thankful for in the president rather than always critiquing him for a number of things... s others have noted even as they critique the president as a president

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2ghdirLe7w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kMNa3uK77k

As it concerns the fruit of the President, I have to say that the president is no different than many other believers within the NT and OT who were far from perfect and yet did many amazing things for the Lord. There was another thread (here ) that spoke more in-depth on the issue entitled Faith & Honor: Why President Obama is a Christian and NOT Muslim according to Hearsay
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Lots of people forgetting the fine American tradition of burning people to death here.

This claim that it's only "those" people who do those things is laughable.
Indeed - and it's very bothersome to see others try to fight the president over the Crusades in the name of "That was centuries ago!!!" and yet act as if other attrocities done to Blacks/Hispanics and other minorities were somehow done ages before - for as a Black Hispanic, I have no issue calling out ISIS while also remembering the hypocrisy of many in the U.S who had no issue with ignoring talking about where Christians were doing the exact same thing.




For people harmed by those actions, whether they happened in the South or the North, it will never be a small thing. And even outside of that, if people want CURRENT actions, we already have it where the Cartels in Mexico are beheading others - and not many Christians speak out against that. People forget that a drug cartel inspired by Christianity, which calls itself the Knights Templar, is the newest cartel in the Mexico drug war.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ6TVjx3XP4

There have been many horrible things done in the name of Christianity - including U.S Imperialism (from the wars to torture to Manifest Destiny to Jim Crow and several other things ) when it comes to others having to note to others why Christianity is not violent when still seeing Christians do violent things. The debate goes both sides - and conquest has been done in the name of Christianity just as much as with Islam. It has not even ceased hundreds of years ago, if consistent - even if saying we live in a post-Christian society, as the language of "Christian Nation" is brought up enough when it comes to praying in God's name/Christian symbolism on currency and references from the Founding Fathers...and other Christian groups waging violence.

imperialism_usa.jpg




For reference:

Upon further study for groups. Militant Christians are not quite exactly in the same vein as radical muslims. Their fight is far more for secular reasons with vague out of context scripture for support and just stamp the word christian on their groups name to legitimize themselves more. Perhaps they are not on the same level as in being successful in maintaining their existence.

Extremist Christians? eh.

Covenant, the Sword and the Arm of the Lord - Encyclopedia of Arkansas

Gxg (G²);66373725 said:
One place you may wish to check out on the issue would be Christian Terrorism, Dominion Theology, Theonomy, Reconstruction Theology, and Tea Parties | The Dunedin School


I had a couple of thoughts, if I may share.

First, I think it needs to be remembered that being Militant is not necessarily opposite of being Christian nor a bad thing - just as it's not always negative if seeing other Muslims who are Militant. Defining "Militant" is very key, as being Militant in the sense of defending yourself when you and your family are harmed is never a bad thing - the right of self preservation and respect of dignity as a human being. Other groups in history fit into that world very well (more shared elsewhere on the issue here and here as well as here when it comes to seeing the ways that Blacks responded to aggression if they were helpless, be it with others like Malcolm X or MLK or the work of Robert F. Williams and so many other) - and there are other forms of Militant Christianity which are damaging, more shared in Militant Christianity: An Anthropological History - Alice Beck Kehoe


Second, The groups you listed are good examples of the issue you're discussing when it comes to Extremist Christians. I'd add groups that were in existence far earlier such as the Dutch Reformed in South Africa when seeing the ways that they treated those who were Indigenous to the land and call them Cannanites......and for others in the U.S, we can see people such as the Branch Davidians (as with Koresh ) and others like the KKK (as mentioned before) - which were condoned in the U.S for an extensive amount of time, in addition to other groups that were openly promoting segregation and enforcing that through violence (from lynching to mob beatings - be it on black people or whites supporting them - and many other things).

In addition to this, we can also examine the history of groups who claimed to represent Christ such as Mormons.....groups which have been noted to be semi-Christian even though there is an extensive history of violence in the camp. One hundred fifty years ago, the U.S. Army marched into Utah prepared to battle Brigham Young and his Mormon militia which did damage to countless people after harming others:



Many are not aware of information present on how those in Mormonism actually waged war in the history of Utah when it came to the U.S - and the people they claim were the Biblical Hebrews (Native Americans) in how they actually treated them when it came to expanding into the Western Frontier.

Mormon war on Native Americans (Black Hawk War between Natives and Mormons) - YouTube

A lot of that is simply a reflection of Manifest Destiny - connected with American Exceptionalism ideals that often justified eradication of minority groups in the name of God condoning it. . This is similar to what happened with the Puritans when they came over (at least in certain camps) when they initially came over and later felt it was God's calling for them to treat Native Americans and Blacks in negative ways because of God backing it (even though other Puritans felt otherwise ) - more shared in Utopian Promise as well as Perry Miller's "Errand into the Wilderness" alongside Puritans | Sects and Violence in the Ancient World and The Puritan Origins of Black Abolitionism in Massachusetts | Christoper Cameron - Academia.edu (if wishing to learn on ways that the Puritan tradition was used positively) as well as Civil Religion and the Anglo-and African American Jeramaid

But of course, outside of that, there are many other groups which one could consider as well - and when seeing the history of the Bible in where it was used for violence, it's not that difficult to see how many groups claimed Christ and yet were violent.

Dr. Philip Jenkins did an excellent review on the issue not too long ago when going through the history of groups that claimed to be Christian even though they condoned violence - as seen here:

The James F. Veninga Lecture on Religion and Politics Presents Philip Jenkins - YouTube

It's unfortunate when most people who are radical for Christ choose to see Jesus appearing as this:

la-candelaria-bogota-mural-militant-jesus.jpg

Ultimately, only Jesus can save others caught up in terrorism and when we treat others the way Jesus treated those who were radical or extreme toward him on the cross, there can be real hope...

GG

In the Monumental film with Kirk Cameron, they make a good point that there were both people fleeing religious persecution and people looking for opportunity on the ships that brought people over here. That means there were people who were just in it for financial reasons coming over too. To them the Indians were a roadblock. They could show up in church and blend in with the people who came here for religious freedom. They could listen in on spiritual arguments and conjure up ways to use scripture to use the Bible to get what they wanted. Then when the Indians became trouble, they could look at books like Joshua and Numbers where the Israelites were commanded to wipe out the enemy.
Gxg (G²);66059046 said:
Whenever it seems others say that the nation was founded on "Christian principles" simply because of where others either spoke of Christ or referenced things from the Bible, it tends to remind me of the same thing my friends and I would wonder when we asked "Why do Rappers on the B.E.T. network always "Thank God" or Jesus on stage when they win music awards...but then they keep rapping about guns and "ho's" and 'busting a cap' in someone's behind and other un-Christian things?" - many Christians have long called out the issue when it comes to the many secular artists claiming Christ and yet going against everything He actually stood for.......like Beyonce in nearly ALL of her songs celebrating a lifestyle of wild living and yet saying that she/others pray to God before their concerts and therefore are "Christian" - that's not gonna fly.


.....The British Empire referenced Christ and God repeatedly with regards to colonialism and imperialism - long before others came over on the Mayflower. But that doesn't mean the British Empire was a Christian Empire. There were things others did simply because of how Christianity was the official RELIGION of the day for Empires. More on the issue was wisely shared elsewhere, as seen in Monumental Myth | The Centrality and Supremacy of Jesus - as well as The Victorians: Empire and Race
I've heard that sentiment for most of my life. But, what does it really mean? What are the principles, which are exclusive to Christianity, on which America was founded?
Gxg (G²);66041228 said:
I think it's important to know the actions that were focused upon by the founders in order to really understand what principles they had that were either exclusive or non-exclusive to Christianity. It's a very complicated mater..



 
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Gxg (G²)

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We all know that African Americans aren't the only minority to suffer at the hands of Christians before and after the 20th century.
Sad but true...
 
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AMDG

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Might try not being divisive with the hyphenated "American". U.S. citizens are "Americans" and not Polish-Americans, Chinese-Americans, German-Americans, Korean-Americans, Hispanic-Americans, Italian-Americans, Irish-Americans, Russian-Americans, English-Americans, Canadian-Americans, or even Heinz 57-Americans etc. We are Americans despite where our ancestors came from.

BTW Christ DID NOT advocate killing, but Mohammed did. So if someone acts violently toward another, he is NOT acting like Christ. He is acting UN-Christian. But when a Muslim acts violently, it seems that he is only following the Koran.
 
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Well, since I'm Orthodox, the Crusades are just not part of our history, except getting attacked and sacked by crusaders on their way home!

But I will say that I think Obama didn't mean any malice, as idiotic as I think he can be sometimes. I think he was doing his usual "don't hate all Muslims, don't denigrate Islam due to a minority of lunatic terrorists who don't represent the religion well" speech. He brought up the Crusades and Inquisition to show that any religion can use their faith to do egregious things. Often times I think the Serbians (I happen to go to a Serbian Orthodox parish) use Orthodoxy as an excuse to tit for tat with the Croats and Bosnian Muslims. The Croats massacred Serbs for decades, the Serbs returned the favor in spades in the 1990's. And they use Kosovo as a type of holy land to be won over. So even we Orthodox are not fully immune to this mentality. Obama is pointing out that every religion has a violence crowd ready and willing to use the faith as a front. The IRA in Ireland is a good example. Most Catholics in the world wouldn't condone even a fraction of the stuff the IRA does!

I do agree with other posters about Obama. He's agnostic at best, an atheist at worst. The tea party birther crowd's charges that Obama is a Muslim are silly. The guy has no faith except in secular humanism, the new deism opium of America's power elite. He doesn't just have it in for Catholicism, he doesn't like Christianity in general. Socialists usually don't.

But in this comment, though it's unnecessary and a tad silly, isn't anything we can really argue is an affront to Christianity. It's fairly harmless.
 
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AMDG

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No, Obama isn't a Muslim. (Although his extended family is and his brother is even in the Muslim Brotherhood according to people in Egypt.) At most he has sympathies according to once Dem campaign manager, Bob Beckle.

Obama has been found on the golf course NOT praying on his prayer shawl five times each day. And he certainly couldn't "evolved" to approving of same-sex "marriage" if he was Muslim. As we all know, Muslims' have been known to blindfold and to toss homosexuals off towers before finishing the deed off by stoning the person to death.
 
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Bohemond

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Well, since I'm Orthodox, the Crusades are just not part of our history, except getting attacked and sacked by crusaders on their way home!

But I will say that I think Obama didn't mean any malice, as idiotic as I think he can be sometimes. I think he was doing his usual "don't hate all Muslims, don't denigrate Islam due to a minority of lunatic terrorists who don't represent the religion well" speech. He brought up the Crusades and Inquisition to show that any religion can use their faith to do egregious things. Often times I think the Serbians (I happen to go to a Serbian Orthodox parish) use Orthodoxy as an excuse to tit for tat with the Croats and Bosnian Muslims. The Croats massacred Serbs for decades, the Serbs returned the favor in spades in the 1990's. And they use Kosovo as a type of holy land to be won over. So even we Orthodox are not fully immune to this mentality. Obama is pointing out that every religion has a violence crowd ready and willing to use the faith as a front. The IRA in Ireland is a good example. Most Catholics in the world wouldn't condone even a fraction of the stuff the IRA does!

I do agree with other posters about Obama. He's agnostic at best, an atheist at worst. The tea party birther crowd's charges that Obama is a Muslim are silly. The guy has no faith except in secular humanism, the new deism opium of America's power elite. He doesn't just have it in for Catholicism, he doesn't like Christianity in general. Socialists usually don't.

But in this comment, though it's unnecessary and a tad silly, isn't anything we can really argue is an affront to Christianity. It's fairly harmless.

I know where Obama is coming from, as a politician he needs appease people from many different backgrounds. He can't demonize muslims or Islam because of the repercussions it could cause to muslims living in America or offend his Muslim allies.

But the problem is that he bases himself on a lie. While ISIS jihadists may be a tiny minority of muslims they aren't going against Islam as he claims.

It isn't really comparable to what the Serbs did, there is no interpretation of the Bible that would lead one to execute Bosniak boys. There are many interpretations of the Qu'ran and the Hadith that support the killing of Shias, the stoning of adulterers, chopping of hands, and throwing gay people from buildings.

In the Crusades, many committed terrible crimes but that wasn't the idea of the movement. The crusades were summoned to stop muslim aggression and to reconquer the holy land. The Popes never called for the slaughtering of the Jews or the Orthodox or the civilian Muslims for that matter. That is different from a movement like ISIS which has the state goal of cleansing the places they conquer of Twelver and Alawite Shias.

My point is that while many Christians did terrible things they had at least a good portion of people in their Crusades trying to do something that is at least justifiable. In ISIS, unlike the Crusades, there isn't one single jihadist that isn't fighting in the name of genocide.
 
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LivingWordUnity

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As we all know, Muslims' have been known to blindfold and to toss homosexuals off towers before finishing the deed off by stoning the person to death.
Most on the Left seem to believe that the Catholic Church calling homosexual behavior a sin is worse than what Muslims do to homosexuals. I say most because I know there are at least a few exceptions to the rule. But these exceptions are treated as the black sheep by their liberal peers.
 
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ebia

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Most on the Left seem to believe that the Catholic Church calling homosexual behavior a sin is worse than what Muslims do to homosexuals. I say most because I know there are at least a few exceptions to the rule. But these exceptions are treated as the black sheep by their liberal peers.
People tend, not completely unreasonably, to be more aware of what influences are happening locally than what is happening more globally or voices that are less influential.

I think most liberals are very aware that most muslim cultures, and many Christian and other cultures, globally have a long way to go on the rights of minorities, women, children, gays, ... But that doesn't diminish the plank in our own eye.
 
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bill5

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Surprise! I just consider the source of the inaccurate information. Consider it a rather stupid remark. However, it does seem that many are insulted. The Rev. Franklin Graham, the president of the Catholic League, Bill Donahue, many of the reporters note the stupidity of the comment, same with the Muslim scholar.

Just because Obama wants to believe in the hate of Rev. Jeremiah Wright, doesn't make it so.
oh cmon - we all know AIDS is a whitey plot to kill off blacks! :thumbsup:
 
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bill5

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Lots of people forgetting the fine American tradition of burning people to death here.

This claim that it's only "those" people who do those things is laughable.
Is that supposed to make any sense? Translations appreciated.

Sounds like more "uh..........well others did it yknow" idiocy, as if that's at all relevant or justifies what's happening TODAY in any way. And it's just as ridiculous as when Obama pulled it.
 
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AMDG

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oh cmon - we all know AIDS is a whitey plot to kill off blacks! :thumbsup:

What on earth?!! And what has that got to do with the FACT that comparing the Crusades with Muslims just happened to be one of Rev. Wright's sermons? (The same Rev. Wright's church in which Obama spent 20 years.)
 
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