Why I am not an atheist

dysert said:

I realize you may not know, but that doesn't change your options. It's either one or the other.

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No. That would be a false dichotomy. There are other options that are plausible such as a cyclic universe.

dysert said:

I considered the cyclic universe idea when I wrote my original post, but I think it's too far fetched to be taken seriously. (And no, I don't know the science behind it.)

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So if you do not know the science behind it what is your reasoning that it is not to be taken seriously?

dysert said:

Granted my delivery may be lacking,

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It's not so much your personal delivery here in this thread that bothers me.

It is rather the overall, poor performance of God as an explanation.

dysert said:

Granted my delivery may be lacking, but I think I have a pretty good understanding of God and His creation.

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I don't think you do. I don't think anybody does, for that matter.

dysert said:

(Not a scientific understanding, obviously, but a theological one.)

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A theological explanation for ... Hmmmm ... the lowly caterpillar. How, when, why, what, where etc?

How about it? (And not so much for me, but rather for yourself.)

dysert said:

But matter doesn't remain in its material form forever. eventually it dematerializes.

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What the heck are you talking about?

dysert said:

I realize you may not know, but that doesn't change your options. It's either one or the other.

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There is always another option. You must be new at this.

dysert said:

Thanks, but I'm not interested any more. (I used to be, but no longer.)

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I was just trying to help, as you appear to be misinformed.

dysert said:

Supernaturalism is the other horse.

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'"Supernaturalism" as a scientific explanation? lol. Your horse is a no-show.

dysert said:

I refer you to Bob Ross's books. He's an astrophysicist who does show his work.

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No one ever shows their math.

dysert said:

Because the Bible has proven to be trustworthy.

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lol.

dysert said:

Google defines "atheist" as, "a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods." Are you using the term in some other way?

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No, but you seemed to equate being an atheist with being an astrophysicist, a biologist, and someone that "has faith". Did you just look up this term now?

dysert said:

Why be a Christian? Because God called and I answered.

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You hear voices? I was kinda looking for rational reasons, as voices and feelings can simply be imagined.

dysert said:

An honest question deserves an honest answer. Recycling doesn't seem to be consistent with the way the world works. People are born, but they decay over time, never to be reconstituted. Machines are made, but they wear out. Toys break. Metal rusts. Food decays. On and on, entropy is in control. To my knowledge, nowhere does anything return to its original condition.

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Odd. I would say recycling seems to be a consistent theme in the universe as we observe it. Plants and animals die and their material is used to fuel new growth. Our water has been recycling for billions of years. The elements are formed piece by piece in the hearts of stars.

Recycling has never been reconditioning. It has always been taking the materials and re-using them in a new form.

dysert said:

1. Stuff exists. For stuff to exist now, it must have always existed, or it sprang from nothingness.
   • It can’t have always existed, or it would have long ago degenerated into energy (matter is not eternal).
   • Something can’t come from nothing.
2. Life exists. After somehow getting over the fact that stuff exists, it’s remarkable that life exists. According to some Big Bang proponents, what resulted from the BB was a bunch of low-numbered elements. Through natural processes (where did they come from?), these elements combined to form high-numbered elements, and eventually molecules combined to form things like rocks and other non-living things. Non-life cannot suddenly produce life, yet an atheist would have you believe that we evidently evolved from rocks.
3. Life is complex. Consider the lowly caterpillar. When the time is right, it forms a cocoon and soon develops into a butterfly. An atheist would have you believe that some caterpillars had mutated genes that allowed them to form cocoons (never mind how they knew they were better off forming cocoons). These caterpillars out-survived non-cocoon caterpillars so through purely naturalistic means we have the caterpillar becoming a butterfly (after millions of years of evolution, of course).
4. The universe is fine-tuned for our existence. There are so many things that could be mentioned (and many more that I don’t even know about), but consider the many natural laws, the distance the earth is from the sun, the size of the sun, the composition of earth’s atmosphere, the abundance of life-supporting material, etc. All these things – and many more – had to be just right in order for life to exist. The odds of all this happening by chance are so small as to be laughable.

Even while atheists acknowledge not knowing certain things, they deride Christians for holding to a “God of the gaps” philosophy. But that’s not quite true. The Bible says that, “In the beginning, God created”. There are gaps that atheists shrug off, but there are no gaps where Christianity is concerned. It takes much more blind faith to be an atheist than to be a Christian, and I personally don’t have that much blind faith.

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.

As a former atheist there came a point when the numbered items you present needed to be dealt with - in an honest and open mind and heart course.

For me it was clearly not about following men, what others promote, or concern for what others would think.

The process of open and honest examination was also without bias. The bias I was fighting at the time was the personal and formal learning of natural sciences and particularly geology in college. I was "pre-programmed", even in the fundamentals in natural laws and history. It was not easy but a battle to come to a non-bias position to "re-examine" how things came about and the issue of why.

I enjoy what you present in your first post. There was Someone who helped me learn the numbered items. He works within us all and I came to a point when I started listening to Him. Big dividends have come since meeting and following Him.

Davian said:

There is always another option. You must be new at this.

I was just trying to help, as you appear to be misinformed.

'"Supernaturalism" as a scientific explanation? lol. Your horse is a no-show.

No one ever shows their math.

lol.

No, but you seemed to equate being an atheist with being an astrophysicist, a biologist, and someone that "has faith". Did you just look up this term now?

You hear voices? I was kinda looking for rational reasons, as voices and feelings can simply be imagined.

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Like many, you are an expert in what you know nothing about and have no firsthand experience in.

All you have to associate such with is imagination or hallucinations.

You have never met Him.

dysert said:

I considered the cyclic universe idea when I wrote my original post, but I think it's too far fetched to be taken seriously. (And no, I don't know the science behind it.)

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But gods are not too far-fetched to be taken seriously? What about pixies at the bottom of the garden? Extraterrestrial aliens visiting Earth? How low have you set your evidential bar?

dysert said:

I considered the cyclic universe idea when I wrote my original post, but I think it's too far fetched to be taken seriously. (And no, I don't know the science behind it.)

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Cosmologists take the idea of a past eternal universe seriously, and they do know the science behind it.

Heissonear said:

Like many, you are an expert in what you know nothing about and have no firsthand experience in.

All you have to associate such with is imagination or hallucinations.

You have never met Him.

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Why should I think you have? Self-deception, by its very nature, is quite convincing.

Dysert, this may sound silly but give it some thought. The reason why you're not an atheist is simply because you are not an atheist.

You don't think the way an atheist does and atheist don't think the way theist do. That's about as plain and simple as I can make it.

The things that convince theists simply don't convince atheists. We need additional information before we turn our lives toward an entire worldview. I don't think atheists are made, they are born.
There are many people who've shown doubts in the claims of major religions and the supernatural. These people are either lying or they are being honest. I tend to think they are honest in their disbelief because I am honest in my disbelief.

I can't break it down any further. You tell me God exists and I say, "show me the evidence." You show me what evidence convinced you and I simply don't see how it did. We can look at exactly the same evidence and we both arrive at different conclusions. What is your explanation for that? Do you think I'm lying?

dysert said:

Davian, you sure know how to quash a conversation.

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If you were looking for an echo chamber, you shoulda said something in the OP.

dysert said:

Why I am not an atheist


1. Stuff exists. For stuff to exist now, it must have always existed, or it sprang from nothingness.

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Time, and its “passage” is relative to the position and motion of the observer and that which is observed.

a. It can’t have always existed, or it would have long ago degenerated into energy (matter is not eternal).

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Whether something is perceived as matter or as energy depends upon your motion relative to what you are looking at.

b. Something can’t come from nothing.

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Nothing doesn't exist. That is actually a tautology. Nothing never did exist.

2. Life exists.

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Bravo!

After somehow getting over the fact that stuff exists, it’s remarkable that life exists.

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Well it might be remarkable, but then again, it might be nearly inevitable. It would not be remarkable if no one were around to remark upon it.

According to some Big Bang proponents, ...

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Meaning, I presume, those who have actually spent some time and effort studying it, and not the experts who learned about it from some non-scientist journalist's interpretation.

... what resulted from the BB was a bunch of low-numbered elements.

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Mostly, Hydrogen, Helium, and a little Lithium ...

Through natural processes (where did they come from?), ...

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They are “natural processes.” They are part of reality.

... these elements combined to form high-numbered elements, and eventually molecules combined to form things like rocks and other non-living things. Non-life cannot suddenly produce life, ...

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How sudden is thirteen billion years?

... yet an atheist would have you believe that we evidently evolved from rocks.

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And some creationists believe that man was made of mud and wind.
Atheists have all sorts of opinions and beliefs. All they have in common is that they don't believe in gods. Most of the gods, are pretty ridiculous and hard to believe in. Some gods, judging by their purported actions and those of their followers, are malicious morons.

3. Life is complex.

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Yes, indeed! So is cosmology. So are non-linear differential equations.

Consider the lowly caterpillar.

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Lowly?! Who are you calling “lowly”, monkey brain?

When the time is right, it forms a cocoon and soon develops into a butterfly. An atheist would have you believe that some caterpillars had mutated genes that allowed them to form cocoons (never mind how they knew they were better off forming cocoons). These caterpillars out-survived non-cocoon caterpillars so through purely naturalistic means we have the caterpillar becoming a butterfly (after millions of years of evolution, of course).

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Yes it is amazing. It is also amazing that life could go from a single cell to you in less than a century.

4. The universe is fine-tuned for our existence.

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In the first place, there is no evidence that the universe could be tuned any other way than it is. There is speculation, but it is just speculation.

There are so many things that could be mentioned (and many more that I don’t even know about), but consider the many natural laws, the distance the earth is from the sun, the size of the sun, the composition of earth’s atmosphere, the abundance of life-supporting material, etc. All these things – and many more – had to be just right in order for life to exist.

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We know that there are a hundred billion galaxies or more. And yet the universe is mostly empty space. On one speck in one of those galaxies, certain chemical reactions involving Carbon and HOH can take place. This, you think, means the universe was “fine tuned for life”. In all the universe, we know, so far of one infinitesimally tine speck where life can be possible, and even that speck is mostly very inhospitable.

The odds of all this happening by chance are so small as to be laughable.

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Quick, without looking it up, what are the odds of a randomly shuffled deck of cards being in order from ace to king clubs to spades? Did you know that the odds of that amazing event are the same as any other random order?

Even while atheists acknowledge not knowing certain things,...

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Atheists all acknowledge that they don't know that there is a god. Other than that: Some atheists know things and some acknowledge ignorance in various fields on various subjects. Religious people claim to know all sorts of things that can only be demonstrated by bad logic and faulty reasoning, without evidence, to people who already believe those things.

... they deride Christians for holding to a “God of the gaps” philosophy.

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“God of the gaps” is not philosophy. It is simply the practice of concealing ignorance by claiming “God did it!”

But that’s not quite true.

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You said it. It is not quite true. Q.E.D.

The Bible says that, “In the beginning, God created”.

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Or words to that effect...

There are gaps that atheists shrug off, ...

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Some atheists may shrug off their ignorance. Some religious folks also shrug it off, but add, as a label to their ignorance, “God did it.”

... but there are no gaps where Christianity is concerned.

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That is the point. The gaps are plugged by un-evidenced assertions. Thus, your god fills all the gaps in your knowledge.

It takes much more blind faith to be an atheist than to be a Christian, ...

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“Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” --- Hebrews 11:1 ESV


In other words, faith is wishful thinking and certainty without evidence. Your own book says so. There can be belief without evidence and that is faith. This sort of belief cannot be refuted by mere reality. There can be belief with evidence. That is science. That sort of belief must be occasionally adjusted to correspond with the facts.

... and I personally don’t have that much blind faith.

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You have enough blind faith believe all sorts of nonsense. A little goes a long way.

dysert said:

1. Stuff exists. For stuff to exist now, it must have always existed, or it sprang from nothingness.
   • It can’t have always existed, or it would have long ago degenerated into energy (matter is not eternal).
   • Something can’t come from nothing.
2. Life exists. After somehow getting over the fact that stuff exists, it’s remarkable that life exists. According to some Big Bang proponents, what resulted from the BB was a bunch of low-numbered elements. Through natural processes (where did they come from?), these elements combined to form high-numbered elements, and eventually molecules combined to form things like rocks and other non-living things. Non-life cannot suddenly produce life, yet an atheist would have you believe that we evidently evolved from rocks.
3. Life is complex. Consider the lowly caterpillar. When the time is right, it forms a cocoon and soon develops into a butterfly. An atheist would have you believe that some caterpillars had mutated genes that allowed them to form cocoons (never mind how they knew they were better off forming cocoons). These caterpillars out-survived non-cocoon caterpillars so through purely naturalistic means we have the caterpillar becoming a butterfly (after millions of years of evolution, of course).
4. The universe is fine-tuned for our existence. There are so many things that could be mentioned (and many more that I don’t even know about), but consider the many natural laws, the distance the earth is from the sun, the size of the sun, the composition of earth’s atmosphere, the abundance of life-supporting material, etc. All these things – and many more – had to be just right in order for life to exist. The odds of all this happening by chance are so small as to be laughable.

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This just supports the idea that there's a creator, it doesn't support the idea that the Christian deity is the creator. So if this is all the support you have for the existence of the Christian god, then you should be an agnostic or a deist.