A finely tuned universe that points to a God.

JimFit

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Just to show what we don't really know:

One of the fundamental laws of physics does not appear to be constant throughout the universe and may change depending on where you are, suggest researchers.

Professor John Webb, from the University of New South Wales, and colleagues, say their findings could help explain why it was possible for life to develop on Earth but perhaps not in other parts of the universe.

According to standard model, the strength of electromagnetism - one of the four fundamental forces of nature - should be constant throughout the cosmos, but Webb and colleagues have found otherwise.

"The strength of electromagnetism ... seems to vary across the universe," says Webb.


Law of nature 'not so constant' after all › News in Science (ABC Science)
"The discovery if proven, would have profound implications for our understanding of space and time because the fine structure constant determines the strength of the electromagnetic interaction which keeps electrons attached to their atoms," says Webb.


"If this is different in different parts of the universe then different laws of physics could mean different properties for chemicals and even biology. A four per cent change in the fine structure constant would mean differences in the production of elements, which would affect how stars burn, changing the production of heavy elements such as those needed for the formation of life".
Webb says: "If correct the findings would answer a question that's puzzled scientists for decades: why do the laws of physics seem to be so finely-tuned for the existence of life?"


The article is from 2011, until now silence.
 
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Loudmouth

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All you have showed me is that only conscious beings can create.

Thunderclouds are not conscious, and yet they create lighnting. You are completely wrong.

Physical necessity can't create when there is nothing physical. Thunderbolts don't act on its own.

Then show that our universe came from nothing physical.

You don't accept Design because you have a counter argument, that counter argument is chance the opposite of intention, please provide evidence about chance. The only thing you can do to refute intention is to refute intention as a whole, intention doesn't exist, we are p-zombies.

I don't know how our univese came about, and no one has provided any compelling evidence for how our universe came about. Do you have any evidence?

I don't need evidence to counter empty assertions.

Because they determined by the physics. physics don't act on their own.

Yet another empty assertion.

All that has been observed is that there is an increase = affection = determinism

You still haven't ruled out instrument error.

Everything in the Universe exists as an open system since the Universe was once a subatomic particle, even galaxies exist inside galaxy clusters, there is a connection that we OBSERVE.

Where do we observe a deity?

God is a conscious being that created us because something unconscious couldn't understand consciousness to create consciousness.

That is an argument from incredulity. You have never demonstrated that the unconscious can not create.
 
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JimFit

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Can you show that the universe has been "created," or are you assuming this point?

Of course i think it can be shown that the probability of a universe capable of supporting ANY form of complex life is one out of infinity (or in comprehensible terms: exactly zero). This sounds like a grandiose claim, but it seems to me to be obvious, once you consider any fine tuned constant. Consider, for example, the fine tuning of gravity. The fine tuning of it is 1 part in 10^40. That is +/- 1 part away from that value would be life prohibiting (at least for any complex life). Though it should be enough to reasonably infer design. That is only looking at how sensitive that value is to change. It doesn’t really address what that value could have been. That is, when you also consider what the range of possible values could have been outside of the life permitting range, then you are looking at the probability that the value you have would even be what it is. There could be possibly be an infinite number of possible values for the gravitational constant.For example, suppose the gravitational constant was increased +1. The fine-tuning argument would suggest gravity would be so great, that the universe would collapse in on itself before life had any chance to evolve (insomuch as any macro-evolution can occur in the first place). Ok. We added +1 to what the gravitational constant could have been. What if it was +2. Then we don’t need to do the math to know that it would be even more life prohibitive. How about +3? Still no life. Why stop there….How about +4? +5? …..etc… to.+infinity? The same goes in the opposite direction. -1 and the universe can’t form heavy elements, and stars would not form (insomuch as stars could form from a big bang in the first place). If you go -2 from fine tuning, you obviously don’t help the prospects, you logically hurt the prospects of any form of life. This would go all the way that possible range will go (probably to 0). But you still have an infinite number of possibilities. So, I’d content, if it can be shown that the range of possibilities could be infinite, then it necessarily means that our universe is infinitely fine tuned.
And that’s just looking at one fine tuned constant.
One might attempt to counter act the problem, but let’s be honest. ANY possible way one might think of to increase the range can be met with an infinite number of ways to break it. Breaking is easy…fixing, is not.
Design is the only rational conclusion.



I don't think you have argued for intention very well.

That's your view.

Defining God as "everything" becomes somewhat problematic when considering the premises of the kalam argument. I'm not sure what you mean by God being "everything." Do you worship everything?

God created the Universe and God exists without the Universe so God is everything.

The Big Bang theory gets us part of the way there, but not the whole way.

That's argument from ignorance, we don't fully understand the Big Bang therefor either the Universe exists eternally or it was created because of chance. If we fully understand the Universe then we can talk about a Deterministic event and a Deterministic event must be Determined by Someone or something outside the Universe.

Atheism faces these problems

The Universe cannot have an infinite chain of causes and effects, even if the succession of causes is infinite the whole chain still requires a cause.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_argument#cite_note-24.
BVG Theorem proved that the Universe began to exist.
An Eternal Universe would automatically place science into garbage, something that has infinite causes cannot be learned.

This is just a bare assertion. Perhaps there is only one, perhaps there are two, or perhaps there are infinitely many. We don't know whether our universe is special or unique.

What you have is an argument from ignorance:

1. I don’t know what other universes are like or if they exist
2. Therefore, we are here by chance

It doesn’t follow, it is like arguing with fairy dust.


We Theists have an argument from analogy:

1. like causes spawn like effects
2. intelligence is the only thing that can fine-tune
3. the universe is fine-tuned
4. therefore the universe is the result of intelligence
The only argument the atheists have is a mere wish:
1. like causes spawn like effects
2. intelligence is the only thing that can fine-tune
3. the universe is fine-tuned
4. I wish like causes did not spawn like effects or I wish fine-tuning were the result of chance.
5. therefore, we are here by chance.


From where did you copy-and-paste this?

Do you agree or disagree? There is no Parthenogenesis in discussions.



I'm not sure what you're going on about.

Are Criminologists insert intention to a crime to fill a gap or they do it because they can recognize intention?

Yes, a space-time boundary. How does one leap from that to an absolute-beginning-from-nothing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHdI4Let27I



If the values of any of these constants were different, then black holes could not form. Therefore, the values have been fine-tuned to ensure the formation of black holes. Therefore, our universe was designed for black holes. Life, and everything else, is merely a byproduct of the universe being finely tuned for black holes. A designer obsessed with black holes is therefore the only rational conclusion.

Stupid argument,black holes serve no purpose. They are just the end stage of massive stars, or in the result of supermassive ones, the result of a lot of matter coming together. As to why there are black holes, they are just what happen when enough matter is fit into a small enough volume. They are not part of any "circle of life", nor does does the term have any meaning when it comes to the universe as a whole.
 
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JimFit

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Thunderclouds are not conscious, and yet they create lighnting. You are completely wrong.

Thunderclouds don't act to describe it as a creation. I already debunked the Physical necessity of the Universe Creation.

Then show that our universe came from nothing physical.

I leave that to the experts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHdI4Let27I

I don't know how our univese came about, and no one has provided any compelling evidence for how our universe came about. Do you have any evidence?

We are not talking about how, we are talking about intention or chance.

Yet another empty assertion.

Can show me where gravity suddenly decided to act and change values and catapulted people in the space?



You still haven't ruled out instrument error.

I can't prove a negative.


Where do we observe a deity?

Where do we observe Consciousness?

That is an argument from incredulity. You have never demonstrated that the unconscious can not create.

The unconscious cannot create because it is determined by physical laws.
 
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JimFit

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Archaeopteryx

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Of course i think it can be shown that the probability of a universe capable of supporting ANY form of complex life is one out of infinity (or in comprehensible terms: exactly zero). This sounds like a grandiose claim, but it seems to me to be obvious, once you consider any fine tuned constant. Consider, for example, the fine tuning of gravity. The fine tuning of it is 1 part in 10^40. That is +/- 1 part away from that value would be life prohibiting (at least for any complex life). Though it should be enough to reasonably infer design. That is only looking at how sensitive that value is to change. It doesn’t really address what that value could have been. That is, when you also consider what the range of possible values could have been outside of the life permitting range, then you are looking at the probability that the value you have would even be what it is. There could be possibly be an infinite number of possible values for the gravitational constant.For example, suppose the gravitational constant was increased +1. The fine-tuning argument would suggest gravity would be so great, that the universe would collapse in on itself before life had any chance to evolve (insomuch as any macro-evolution can occur in the first place). Ok. We added +1 to what the gravitational constant could have been. What if it was +2. Then we don’t need to do the math to know that it would be even more life prohibitive. How about +3? Still no life. Why stop there….How about +4? +5? …..etc… to.+infinity? The same goes in the opposite direction. -1 and the universe can’t form heavy elements, and stars would not form (insomuch as stars could form from a big bang in the first place). If you go -2 from fine tuning, you obviously don’t help the prospects, you logically hurt the prospects of any form of life. This would go all the way that possible range will go (probably to 0). But you still have an infinite number of possibilities. So, I’d content, if it can be shown that the range of possibilities could be infinite, then it necessarily means that our universe is infinitely fine tuned.
And that’s just looking at one fine tuned constant.
One might attempt to counter act the problem, but let’s be honest. ANY possible way one might think of to increase the range can be met with an infinite number of ways to break it. Breaking is easy…fixing, is not.
Design is the only rational conclusion.

I've already responded to this.

God created the Universe and God exists without the Universe so God is everything.

That sounds nonsensical.

That's argument from ignorance, we don't fully understand the Big Bang therefor either the Universe exists eternally or it was created because of chance.

That's a strawman. Where did I say that in the text you are quoting? I didn't.

What you have is an argument from ignorance:

1. I don’t know what other universes are like or if they exist
2. Therefore, we are here by chance

It doesn’t follow, it is like arguing with fairy dust.

But I didn't make such an argument. That's a strawman.

We Theists have an argument from analogy:

1. like causes spawn like effects

The very first premise rules out any supernatural entities for causing the universe to exist.

2. intelligence is the only thing that can fine-tune
3. the universe is fine-tuned
4. therefore the universe is the result of intelligence

You need to support those premises.

The only argument the atheists have is a mere wish:
1. like causes spawn like effects
2. intelligence is the only thing that can fine-tune
3. the universe is fine-tuned
4. I wish like causes did not spawn like effects or I wish fine-tuning were the result of chance.
5. therefore, we are here by chance.

Quit it with the strawmen arguments. You undercut your own argument with premise 1!

Are Criminologists insert intention to a crime to fill a gap or they do it because they can recognize intention?

I'm sorry, but you're not making sense.


You do realise that what he is saying runs counter to what you are proposing?

Stupid argument,black holes serve no purpose.

That isn't necessarily true. Perhaps the designer is a black hole enthusiast. As such, the only purpose they need serve is his enthusiasm for them. Everything else, life included, is merely a byproduct that is of no interest to the designer.

They are just the end stage of massive stars, or in the result of supermassive ones, the result of a lot of matter coming together. As to why there are black holes, they are just what happen when enough matter is fit into a small enough volume. They are not part of any "circle of life", nor does does the term have any meaning when it comes to the universe as a whole.

I could say the same for your argument on the fine tuning for life: "Life happens when the conditions for it are adequate," just like black holes happen when the conditions for their formation are met. Given that we inhabit a universe in which the conditions for both life and black holes are met on at least a few occasions, why should we infer that the universe was fine tuned specifically for life and not for black holes?
 
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Mainframes

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It is Fine Tuned for intelligent life, i suggest you to read this peer reviewed paper.

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1112/1112.4647v1.pdf

That paper really doesn't say anything about how the universe has been tuned. All it is describing is how universal constants are right for life and that the chances for that are potentially low.

The problem here is you are still confusing the noun 'fine-tuned' with what should be the description of 'correct'. I will totally agree that all the constants in the universe are are right to allow life to come into being but this is NOT fine-tuning.

Please check the dictionary: 'Tuning' is a verb meaning to adjust settings to those required. So to show 'Fine-tuning' you need to prove that universal constants have been adjusted to their present settings to allow life to arise. The burden is on you as you are the one pushing for a creator who has adjusted the universe to allow life.
 
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JimFit

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I've already responded to this.

And i already replied, black holes are not conscious.



That sounds nonsensical.

For you that you don't believe in God it sounds nonsensical.

That's a strawman. Where did I say that in the text you are quoting? I didn't.

Come on...you propose it to refute the Designer, why would you do it if you believed in God?

But I didn't make such an argument. That's a strawman.

Yes you did, you said other Universes can delete Fine Tuning and therefor a Tuner.

The very first premise rules out any supernatural entities for causing the universe to exist.

No its not, we are talking about a transcendental cause here not a physical one, it is still a cause.



You need to support those premises.

I don't, they are logical conclusions. Prove me that chance can tune anything.
Fine Tuning is accepted by the majority of the scientists. Don't make me copy their conclusions again.

Quit it with the strawmen arguments. You undercut your own argument with premise 1!

If there is no Design there is Chance, prove it.

I'm sorry, but you're not making sense.

I am that's why you cannot answer, Criminologists use science to prove that there was intention behind the crime and not chance (etc an accident) or physical necessity (etc some illness). Does that mean that they fill the gap of the death with a conscious being or that they concluded that only intention could cause the death? In our case we are talking about life.


You do realise that what he is saying runs counter to what you are proposing?

NOT AT ALL! You clearly don't understand what he is saying. He is talking about Idealism/Platonism, He doesn't say that the laws existed eternally he says that the laws HAD to exist before the Universe. He is an agnostic when it comes to religion, if he believed that the Laws could solve the question about our existence he would be an atheist. My ancestor Plato believed that the Universe was created after the Law giver gave the Laws and that is confirmed slowly by Science.


That isn't necessarily true. Perhaps the designer is a black hole enthusiast. As such, the only purpose they need serve is his enthusiasm for them. Everything else, life included, is merely a byproduct that is of no interest to the designer.

I already said that the black holes are the final catalyst of the massive stars, they are not created with a purpose, they exist from physical necessity, perhaps if black holes weren't created there would be a release of energy that would make the Universe unstable. If you believe that a Designer exists and creates black holes for fun then you believe that he is Conscious therefor your argument goes to garbage because our consciousness goes beyond black holes, we can understand what black holes are, black holes can't understand consciousness. We are the images of God not something separated.

I surely believe when i am talking with atheists like you that your arrogance has blinded you so much you don't follow the logical train of thoughts anymore.

I could say the same for your argument on the fine tuning for life: "Life happens when the conditions for it are adequate," just like black holes happen when the conditions for their formation are met. Given that we inhabit a universe in which the conditions for both life and black holes are met on at least a few occasions, why should we infer that the universe was fine tuned specifically for life and not for black holes?

That's the argument from physical necessity, is the Fine Tuning of Intelligent life through Physical Necessity?

This alternative seems extraordinarily implausible because the constants and quantities are independent of the laws of nature. The laws of nature are consistent with a wide range of values for these constants and quantities. For example, the most promising candidate for a Theory of Everything (T.O.E.) to date, super-string theory or M-Theory, allows a “cosmic landscape” of around 10500 different universes governed by the present laws of nature, so that it does nothing to render the observed values of the constants and quantities physically necessary.
 
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JimFit

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That paper really doesn't say anything about how the universe has been tuned. All it is describing is how universal constants are right for life and that the chances for that are potentially low.

Prove me that chance or physical necessity can tune and you will get rid of the Tuner once and for all.

The problem here is you are still confusing the noun 'fine-tuned' with what should be the description of 'correct'. I will totally agree that all the constants in the universe are are right to allow life to come into being but this is NOT fine-tuning.

It is Fine Tuning for life to arise. I don't understand your point.

Please check the dictionary: 'Tuning' is a verb meaning to adjust settings to those required. So to show 'Fine-tuning' you need to prove that universal constants have been adjusted to their present settings to allow life to arise. The burden is on you as you are the one pushing for a creator who has adjusted the universe to allow life.

I don't claim that they were adjusted, i claim that they were created from scratch for intelligent life to exist. Tuning is a human description about the Constants, its a delusional scenario that if the constants were different then life could arise or couldn't arise, God didn't had to create the wrong constants and then to adjust them! He already knew how to make them to be right for life.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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And i already replied, black holes are not conscious.

So what? That's irrelevant.

For you that you don't believe in God it sounds nonsensical.

?

Come on...you propose it to refute the Designer, why would you do it if you believed in God?

I didn't propose what you claimed I proposed. You presented a strawman and then asked me to defend it.

Yes you did, you said other Universes can delete Fine Tuning and therefor a Tuner.

I'm beginning to see that you don't really care about what people actually say.

No its not, we are talking about a transcendental cause here not a physical one, it is still a cause.

Your first premise states that causes are not unlike their effects. Given that premise, you have already ruled out a supernatural cause.

I don't, they are logical conclusions. Prove me that chance can tune anything.
Fine Tuning is accepted by the majority of the scientists. Don't make me copy their conclusions again.

If there is no Design there is Chance, prove it.

Once again, you are arguing for design, so it is incumbent on you to provide evidence for that claim.

I am that's why you cannot answer, Criminologists use science to prove that there was intention behind the crime and not chance (etc an accident) or physical necessity (etc some illness). Does that mean that they fill the gap of the death with a conscious being or that they concluded that only intention could cause the death? In our case we are talking about life.

Your analogy doesn't appear to be analogous, or you aren't expressing it very clearly.

NOT AT ALL! You clearly don't understand what he is saying. He is talking about Idealism/Platonism, He doesn't say that the laws existed eternally he says that the laws HAD to exist before the Universe. He is an agnostic when it comes to religion, if he believed that the Laws could solve the question about our existence he would be an atheist. My ancestor Plato believed that the Universe was created after the Law giver gave the Laws and that is confirmed slowly by Science.

What he is saying still does not comport with what you are saying. You do understand that don't you?

I already said that the black holes are the final catalyst of the massive stars, they are not created with a purpose, they exist from physical necessity, perhaps if black holes weren't created there would be a release of energy that would make the Universe unstable. If you believe that a Designer exists and creates black holes for fun then you believe that he is Conscious therefor your argument goes to garbage because our consciousness goes beyond black holes, we can understand what black holes are, black holes can't understand consciousness. We are the images of God not something separated.

I surely believe when i am talking with atheists like you that your arrogance has blinded you so much you don't follow the logical train of thoughts anymore.

On the contrary, I'm following your "train of thought," but applying it to something other than life - black holes. It's a reducto ad absurdum.

That's the argument from physical necessity, is the Fine Tuning of Intelligent life through Physical Necessity?

No, it's the argument for fine tuning for black holes. It's your argument, with life removed as the focal point and replaced by black holes as the ultimate purpose of the fine tuning.
 
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"The discovery if proven, would have profound implications for our understanding of space and time because the fine structure constant determines the strength of the electromagnetic interaction which keeps electrons attached to their atoms," says Webb.

I realize that it needs more study to be considered proven. But that's not my point.

I'm saying that we don't know enough about the universe yet to be certain that results like this won't crop up. It's not like scientists are saying that this is an impossible result that must be instrument error because it's all been thoroughly checked out before.

All this just goes back to the way in which the "fine-tuning" argument is just a big argument from ignorance.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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JimFit

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I realize that it needs more study to be considered proven. But that's not my point.

I'm saying that we don't know enough about the universe yet to be certain that results like this won't crop up. It's not like scientists are saying that this is an impossible result that must be instrument error because it's all been thoroughly checked out before.

All this just goes back to the way in which the "fine-tuning" argument is just a big argument from ignorance.


eudaimonia,

Mark

But even if all the Constants are proven wrong there still must exist a Universal constant that creates Universes and not kitties!
 
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JimFit

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So what? That's irrelevant.

You said that God created the Universe for black holes to exist, not us.

Lets analyze that hypothetical scenario, God creates the Universe and us but he cares more about black holes than us, that God would not follow the bible because in the Bible God create us in His image and His likeness. We care for conscious beings and not etc rocks so the love of God could only apply to conscious beings, black holes are not conscious so God didn't created the Universe for Black holes. This hypothetical scenario also is destroyed by the fact that He could easily create a Universe full of black holes without life if the constants were different.


Your first premise states that causes are not unlike their effects. Given that premise, you have already ruled out a supernatural cause.

Yes but here we are talking about God, he created the law like causes like effects. Don't lock God in the Physical World.

Once again, you are arguing for design, so it is incumbent on you to provide evidence for that claim.

The fact that we live in a structure is proof of Design.

Definition

1.to prepare the preliminary sketch or the plans for (a work to be executed), especially to plan the form and structure of: to design a new bridge.


Your analogy doesn't appear to be analogous, or you aren't expressing it very clearly.

Isn't a murder a conscious being with intention?

What he is saying still does not comport with what you are saying. You do understand that don't you?

What if i show you an interview that he says that he expected this argument to make Theologians very happy?
 
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Archaeopteryx

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You said that God created the Universe for black holes to exist, not us.

Lets analyze that hypothetical scenario, God creates the Universe and us but he cares more about black holes than us, that God would not follow the bible because in the Bible God create us in His image and His likeness. We care for conscious beings and not etc rocks so the love of God could only apply to conscious beings, black holes are not conscious so God didn't created the Universe for Black holes.

Why should we accept the Bible's word on the matter?

This hypothetical scenario also is destroyed by the fact that He could easily create a Universe full of black holes without life if the constants were different.

Being God, couldn't he have created a universe with life but without black holes? He could also have created a universe of the kind depicted in Genesis. A universe of that kind is much more clearly "fine tuned" for human existence.

Yes but here we are talking about God, he created the law like causes like effects. Don't lock God in the Physical World.

I'm not locking God in or out of anything, you are. Your first premise has "locked him out" as a cause for the universe.

The fact that we live in a structure is proof of Design.

Not necessarily. Natural processes are capable of producing complex structures. For example:

a4f4efba51ea4b4aa1dc97ce488960ee.jpg


Isn't a murder a conscious being with intention?

No, but a murderer is. Still not seeing where you are going with this analogy...

What if i show you an interview that he says that he expected this argument to make Theologians very happy?

What if I showed you an interview where he makes some less than favourable remarks about theology?
 
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But even if all the Constants are proven wrong there still must exist a Universal constant that creates Universes and not kitties!

Please expand on this. What are you talking about?


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Lord Emsworth

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But even if all the Constants are proven wrong there still must exist a Universal constant that creates Universes and not kitties!

That's always been one of the things that bothered me about the FTA. Why carbon based lifeforms? And why universes?

Why this gigantic Rube Goldberg machine?
 
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JimFit

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That's always been one of the things that bothered me about the FTA. Why carbon based lifeforms? And why universes?

Why this gigantic Rube Goldberg machine?

Only carbon can create life, i am not an expert on that field but until now the other elements have proven inadequate to create life.

You are begging the question about the Rube Goldberg machine, clearly to have a machine you must first need matter and if you need matter you must take the same chain of events to have a Universe like this.
 
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