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but.. are they Christian?
- Thread starter ChristsSoldier115
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GratiaCorpusChristi
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Well there really aren't any skeletons in our closest anymore. In earlier times there were Christian massacres of Muslims, Jews, and fellow Christians, under the auspices of royal conquest or religious crusade or ecclesiastical inquisition. But nowadays there are almost no instances of any serious or systematic Christian violence and almost all instances of earlier Christian violence are skeletons that have long since been brought out of the closest.
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Targaryen
Scripture,Tradition and Reason
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Personally, I have a great deal of trouble reconciling any extremist view within Christianity with the Christianity I and the majority of Christians practise. For me, these groups would be more at home during the mindless violence of the times of the Reformation or even prior to that.
However, that plays into the whole No True Scotsman fallacy. My trouble reconcilling it doesn't mean they not christian...however, to me...they have a LOT more to learn about the faith then what their practise would indicate.
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GratiaCorpusChristi
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And they're entirely wrong. Hitler was an occult practitioner and believed that religion should be based on a salvation-historical model of Aryan ascendancy. His positive references to Jesus and Christianity almost, and perhaps always, should be understood as references to Jesus interpreted as an Aryan ubermensch who rejected the Jewish people as a failed parasitic race.
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Targaryen
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The no True Scotsman fallacy is simply personal bias expressed as "law"
For example: No true Scotsman would ever agree to being a part of the United Kingdom.
That type of thing. You see it all the time in GT with the anti-catholic threads or posters or the similar anti-protestant threads or posters.
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Restoresmysoul
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So if i say that Christians don't kill, steal and destroy. This statement is a fallacy?
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Targaryen
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Cause it becomes personal bias directed out as "law" yes.
And also, it's a rather foolish statement to say that Christians don't do those things in general anyway. You can watch the news nightly and see cases of that being false, if you want to avoi the "major scandals".
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Targaryen
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You want to bury your head and not deal with the fact Christians are still sinners, go for it. Sorry but I'll deal with the reality I face as a Christian then deal with fallible thoughts like your statement Paladin rebuked was.
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Restoresmysoul
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That's not the point i was making. We were talking about the Mafia and KKK. This isn't Christianity. Its one thing to come from that background and to turn from it and begin to live for Christ, its another thing altogether different to suggest that this is what Christians do.
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Targaryen
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It's still a fallacy to say that people that maifiosos don't think they aren't christian or that the KKK thinks they aren't Christian either....again,burying your head doesn't make your point of view true.
We may feel differently, but then the same thing applies in reverse. again, the No True Scotsman fallacy in effect.
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Don't make the mistake of linking "christian" with those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Here on earth, we have to take a man's word for it and allow him to claim to be Christian. Some of those who make that claim are not redeemed, and there's nothing we can do about that.
The KKK were so Christian they used crosses for the symbol of their presence.
Sometimes you will read in the papers about Christian militia fighting against other groups. Those are generally Coptic Christians, born into their faith and baptized as babies.
So the word "Christian" has multiple meanings and we cannot make the whole world understand that not every earthly member of a church has his name written in the Lamb's book of life.
And we cannot say "no christian" would ever commit (insert horrible deed here)
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James Is Back
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But will a true Scotsman drink with an Englishman under the table
Seriously though you do have a point of Christians and our sin nature and that has been the problem since the fall.
And will be the problem until Christ comes and fixes everything.
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Restoresmysoul
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I see your point but i prefer the term true and false. Teachers and false teachers for example. But it doesn't matter, i don't like these discussions anyway. Thanks for your reply.
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Mama Kidogo
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Oh poo. That's like saying no true Christian would sin.
By the standards Jesus spoke, we all are (or have been) murderers.
So how do we define the term Christian beyond believing Jesus is Lord? Could these nutcase groups not believe the creed?
Best to wait and if we find our selves in heaven and we see who's missing, then we can say who is and who is not.
But even that doesn't really tell us. Not all who call on his name (Christians) will find glory.
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- Jan 25, 2009
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Good points. One place you may wish to check out on the issue would be Christian Terrorism, Dominion Theology, Theonomy, Reconstruction Theology, and Tea Parties | The Dunedin School
I had a couple of thoughts, if I may share.
First, I think it needs to be remembered that being Militant is not necessarily opposite of being Christian nor a bad thing - just as it's not always negative if seeing other Muslims who are Militant. Defining "Militant" is very key, as being Militant in the sense of defending yourself when you and your family are harmed is never a bad thing - the right of self preservation and respect of dignity as a human being. Other groups in history fit into that world very well (more shared elsewhere on the issue here and here as well as here when it comes to seeing the ways that Blacks responded to aggression if they were helpless, be it with others like Malcolm X or MLK or the work of Robert F. Williams and so many other) - and there are other forms of Militant Christianity which are damaging, more shared in Militant Christianity: An Anthropological History - Alice Beck Kehoe
Second, The groups you listed are good examples of the issue you're discussing when it comes to Extremist Christians. I'd add groups that were in existence far earlier such as the Dutch Reformed in South Africa when seeing the ways that they treated those who were Indigenous to the land and call them Cannanites......and for others in the U.S, we can see people such as the Branch Davidians (as with Koresh ) and others like the KKK (as mentioned before) - which were condoned in the U.S for an extensive amount of time, in addition to other groups that were openly promoting segregation and enforcing that through violence (from lynching to mob beatings - be it on black people or whites supporting them - and many other things).
In addition to this, we can also examine the history of groups who claimed to represent Christ such as Mormons.....groups which have been noted to be semi-Christian even though there is an extensive history of violence in the camp. One hundred fifty years ago, the U.S. Army marched into Utah prepared to battle Brigham Young and his Mormon militia which did damage to countless people after harming others:
- -"The Brink of War | History | Smithsonian" ( The Brink of War | History | Smithsonian )
- -"Utah War 1857-1858: Mormon Militarism & the War for Deseret " ( The Warfare Historian: Utah War 1857-1858: Mormon Militarism & the War for Deseret )
Many are not aware of information present on how those in Mormonism actually waged war in the history of Utah when it came to the U.S - and the people they claim were the Biblical Hebrews (Native Americans) in how they actually treated them when it came to expanding into the Western Frontier.
Mormon war on Native Americans (Black Hawk War between Natives and Mormons) - YouTube
A lot of that is simply a reflection of Manifest Destiny - connected with American Exceptionalism ideals that often justified eradication of minority groups in the name of God condoning it. . This is similar to what happened with the Puritans when they came over (at least in certain camps) when they initially came over and later felt it was God's calling for them to treat Native Americans and Blacks in negative ways because of God backing it (even though other Puritans felt otherwise ) - more shared in Utopian Promise as well as Perry Miller's "Errand into the Wilderness" alongside Puritans | Sects and Violence in the Ancient World and The Puritan Origins of Black Abolitionism in Massachusetts | Christoper Cameron - Academia.edu (if wishing to learn on ways that the Puritan tradition was used positively) as well as Civil Religion and the Anglo-and African American Jeramaid
But of course, outside of that, there are many other groups which one could consider as well - and when seeing the history of the Bible in where it was used for violence, it's not that difficult to see how many groups claimed Christ and yet were violent.
Dr. Philip Jenkins did an excellent review on the issue not too long ago when going through the history of groups that claimed to be Christian even though they condoned violence - as seen here:
The James F. Veninga Lecture on Religion and Politics Presents Philip Jenkins - YouTube
It's unfortunate when most people who are radical for Christ choose to see Jesus appearing as this:
Ultimately, only Jesus can save others caught up in terrorism and when we treat others the way Jesus treated those who were radical or extreme toward him on the cross, there can be real hope...
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- Jan 25, 2009
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If I may say,
I do think there's A LOT to be said in regards to many within the U.S already supporting things like ISIS - even if done in differing forms that we'd not be quick to see. Whenever you have nations demonized and others in the U.S championing on their destruction (regardless of many who would not agree in those nations with the stereotypes placed on them) in the name of "God's Will", you have a problem. And when it comes to movements like Zionism, there are many strains within it that advocate just that. There have been many deaths occurring in the name of God with many in the U.S cheering it on and financing it and yet being quick to say it's not the same as ISIS because we're not cutting off the heads of others - despite where we've cheered on the deaths of all nations that have others harming the U.S and we have no issue bombing them from a distance. More on this has been discussed before already when it came to our discussing U.S. Imperialism abroad - and other places on Zionism were discussed here / in here and here Why Sola Scriptura Honestly Scares Me
And on discussing the complexities of Zionism, As another noted best:
Christian Zionism Road-map to Armegeddon The Rev. Dr. Stephen Sizer - YouTube
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MoreCoffee
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I guess it depends on how one defines "christian"; if it is purely a matter of believing and confessing certain doctrines then "yes" is likely the right answer and if it is a matter of both belief and way of life then "no" is likely the right answer.
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