Can sex and orientation change?

Joykins · Sep 3, 2014

KarateCowboy said:
Would you say, as far as orientation, that people are attracted to the sex or the gender?

It can vary.

Is there a meaningful difference? For example, I heard about an aberrosexual couple where the male is female and the female is male, so to speak. Say the male-gone-female(mgf) is attracted to the opposite sex. If sex cannot change, but gender can, then wouldn't that mean the mgf is actually with the wrong person? Do you see what I'm getting at?

You sound confused ^_^

That is: if gender can change but sex cannot, then doesn't that mean we should distinguish between, say, opposite sex attraction, and opposite gender attraction?(EG, the MGF in question is opposite gender attracted, and opposite sex attracted, and in essence is mixed gender-sex attracted). If so, I would say our failure to do so puts the lie to the claim that gender can really change, but sex cannot. I would say, then, that the two are ultimately inseparable.

People who are attracted to women would remain so after a sex change; people who are attracted to men would remain so after a sex change; people who are attracted to both would remain so after a sex change; people who are attracted to transmen would remain so after a sex change; and people who are attracted to transwomen would remain so after a sex change. Whether these are or would be same-sex or opposite-sex attractions is kind of immaterial to me after all that, at least in terms of whether it would be the sort of situation that someone might want to pass judgment on and accidentally miss due to the confusion, but the nomenclature could be meaningful to the people involved (e.g. a person born male, identifies as female, is/was always attracted to women, and considers herself a lesbian as opposed to a straight man. Does that mean you have to condemn them for same-sex relationship? That's kind of up to you, isn't it?).

trunks2k · Sep 3, 2014

This is a very good video primer on sex, gender, sexual orientation, and sexual behavior:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXAoG8vAyzI

Maynard Keenan · Sep 3, 2014

I don't get what's so hard about accepting that sex and gender are far more complex than our everyday model treats them. Or about accepting that, regardless of whether you think being transgender is even a thing or a reasonable thing, it harms you none to accept the person you've always known as Steve's request to be called Stacy and referred to as she.

KarateCowboy · Sep 3, 2014

Joykins said:
"identify as" does not mean "claim to be," it means "believe you are."

The verb " identify " is defined as " establish or indicate who or what (someone or something) is.".

So "identify as female" would then mean "indicate to be female". I don't see any meaningful difference between that and " claim to be ".

SummerMadness · Sep 3, 2014

Some people are born with male and female genitalia. To say they are a particular gender would be incorrect, some may identify with male, some may identify with female, using the logic of people that believe everything is binary, hermaphroditic people should all be bisexual, they are not. This points to the idea that sex, gender, and sexual orientation are not clear cut, there is a lot more fluidity to it. It's obvious that genetic sex has a strong influence on gender identity and sexual orientation, but it's not either/all in every case.

Armoured · Sep 3, 2014

KarateCowboy said:
The verb " identify " is defined as " establish or indicate who or what (someone or something) is.".

So "identify as female" would then mean "indicate to be female". I don't see any meaningful difference between that and " claim to be ".

You mightn't. People finding themselves in that situation sure do though.

Cute Tink · Sep 3, 2014

KarateCowboy said:
The verb " identify " is defined as " establish or indicate who or what (someone or something) is.".

So "identify as female" would then mean "indicate to be female". I don't see any meaningful difference between that and " claim to be ".

If there is no meaningful difference, then why do you need to reword it at all?

Armoured · Sep 3, 2014

Cute Tink said:
If there is no meaningful difference, then why do you need to reword it at all?

Semantics to prop up a misconception.

Cute Tink · Sep 3, 2014

Armoured said:
Semantics to prop up a misconception.

I have little doubt, but I await the response from He Who Needs The Rewording.

Cute Tink · Sep 3, 2014

Armoured said:
You mightn't. People finding themselves in that situation sure do though.

I'll just come out and state why I see a different between "identify as" and "claim to be".

When I identify as human, I am establishing myself as human, just as would any other.

If you reward that as "claim to be" for absolutely no reason whatsoever, but just for kicks, the implication is that I am saying I am even though I'm not.

There may be a similar definition (arguably) but the connotation is very much different. Somehow I doubt KarateCowboy is ignorant as to that fact.

KarateCowboy · Sep 3, 2014

Cute Tink said:
If there is no meaningful difference, then why do you need to reword it at all?

Well, as you can see, Joykins was clearly confused, saying two synonyms did not refer to the same thing. "Identify as" seems to be harder for people to grasp with clarity. I believe its good to communicate clearly, so I'm naturally inclined to choose more lucid expression.

By rephrasing "identify as" with "claim to be", it helps bring understanding. It's like using " society "and " community "

Rubiks · Sep 3, 2014

Cute Tink said:
XX and XY are not the only options. Not by a long shot.

If I recall correctly, But Genotypes like XYY, XXX etc. are going to always be blends of either male or female to different degrees. Its not like there's some third unique reproductive system that can reproduce with both genders. Only found in Japan's imagination

Rubiks · Sep 3, 2014

SummerMadness said:
Some people are born with male and female genitalia. To say they are a particular gender would be incorrect, some may identify with male, some may identify with female, using the logic of people that believe everything is binary, hermaphroditic people should all be bisexual, they are not. This points to the idea that sex, gender, and sexual orientation are not clear cut, there is a lot more fluidity to it. It's obvious that genetic sex has a strong influence on gender identity and sexual orientation, but it's not either/all in every case.

Fine, but what i dislike is when when people just hide behind these hard, yet rare cases when discussing transgenderism. They don't count for the majority. just sayin'

Armoured · Sep 3, 2014

Rubiks said:
Fine, but what i dislike is when when people just hide behind these hard, yet rare cases when discussing transgenderism. They don't count for the majority. just sayin'

Of course they count for the majority.

The fact that neurochemical and structural differences aren't as obvious as genitalia doesn't make them not there.

Cute Tink · Sep 3, 2014

Rubiks said:
If I recall correctly, But Genotypes like XYY, XXX etc. are going to always be blends of either male or female to different degrees. Its not like there's some third unique reproductive system that can reproduce with both genders. Only found in Japan's imagination

What does this topic have to do with reproduction?

Also, my post was in response to someone who stated that XX or XY were the only options.

Cute Tink · Sep 3, 2014

KarateCowboy said:
Well, as you can see, Joykins was clearly confused, saying two synonyms did not refer to the same thing. "Identify as" seems to be harder for people to grasp with clarity. I believe its good to communicate clearly, so I'm naturally inclined to choose more lucid expression.

By rephrasing "identify as" with "claim to be", it helps bring understanding. It's like using " society "and " community "

They are similar, but different. You are introducing more confusion than you are dispelling, especially given the connotations that go along with "claim to be".

Rubiks · Sep 3, 2014

Cute Tink said:
What does this topic have to do with reproduction?

Also, my post was in response to someone who stated that XX or XY were the only options.

I am basically trying to say XY and XX are the only unique options.

Joykins · Sep 3, 2014

KarateCowboy said:
Well, as you can see, Joykins was clearly confused, saying two synonyms did not refer to the same thing. "Identify as" seems to be harder for people to grasp with clarity. I believe its good to communicate clearly, so I'm naturally inclined to choose more lucid expression.

By rephrasing "identify as" with "claim to be", it helps bring understanding. It's like using " society "and " community "

I'm not confused at all.

When I claim to be something, I am telling other people that I am something.

When I believe I am something, that is purely internal.

"Identify as" can, I suppose, have both meanings in different contexts--but when we talk about sexuality and gender it is usually the latter. Closeted people, for example, claim to be something quite different than they believe they are.

Armoured · Sep 3, 2014

Rubiks said:
I am basically trying to say XY and XX are the only unique options.

Um...

Targaryen · Sep 3, 2014

Can sex and orientation change?

Can orientation change? Can your sex change?

Orientation is malleable but sex is not

Orientation is not malleable and neither is sex

Sex is malleable but orientation is not

Sex is malleable and so is orientation

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