Can sex and orientation change?

[KarateCowboy]

Unfortunately those aren't the only possibilities. That's just biological science.

Yes yes. Just some examples.

 

[Usus Vox Tractus]

The master gets it...

Thanks my friend! But to me the master is an Old Oak Tree, I am just a little sprout rejoicing in my recent rebirth out of the dark, damp soil.

 

[Cute Tink]

I mean denial about the biological reality of who you are. Kind of like anorexics who think they're fat.

Also, GID seems a less cloudy term.

Methinks you like terms that connote problems with the stated identity. I suppose if accuracy is not your goal...

Biological reality, by which you mean only the visible body parts. That isn't the whole picture at all.

 

[KarateCowboy]

Methinks you like terms that connote problems with the stated identity. I suppose if accuracy is not your goal...

Biological reality, by which you mean only the visible body parts. That isn't the whole picture at all.

Well, the encyclopedia says the term was changed for political agenda reasons, not accuracy. Methinks that is unethical.

Perhaps you could elaborate on the missing parts of the 'whole picture' to which you are referring. I read that some claim GID is a birth defect of sorts.

 

[Cute Tink]

Well, the encyclopedia says the term was changed for political agenda reasons, not accuracy. Methinks that is unethical.

Link to that? What encyclopedia?

Perhaps you could elaborate on the missing parts of the 'whole picture' to which you are referring. I read that some claim GID is a birth defect of sorts.

The medical community recognizes that there is more to "who you are" than what hangs between one's legs. I'd think most people would recognize that as well.

Gender Dysphoria is a birth defect of sorts. One potential cause being studied is hormone interaction before birth.

 

[Maren]

Everyone sees them fixed into certain patterns. For example, XY expressing itself as male gonads and features is a pattern, and XX likewise is also a pattern. That's just biological science.

Thanks for the barb, though. I guess that's liberal tolerance, acceptance, and non-judgmentalism for you.

Your problem is that it isn't absolute. There are a variety of conditions that lead to a fetus with XY chromosomes being born as female, and a fetus with XX chromosomes being born as male. And, again, that doesn't include people born with X0, XXY, XXXY, Mosaics that have a XY and XX chromosome pairs, etc.

There is also the point that most "men" with XXY chromosome "pairs" tend to be quite feminized. This article, on X inactivation, helps explain why, and why an XXY male is not the same as your typical XY male.

 

[Maren]

Well, the encyclopedia says the term was changed for political agenda reasons, not accuracy. Methinks that is unethical.

Perhaps you could elaborate on the missing parts of the 'whole picture' to which you are referring. I read that some claim GID is a birth defect of sorts.

Here is a link that talks about the brain differences between males and females, and how transsexuals brains are more similar to the gender they believe they are rather than their "birth sex".

 

[Cearbhall]

Nope. You can disfigure yourself and pump yourself full of synthetic hormones, but all that produces is an impersonation of the other gender. You can't change your chromosomes, which will forever declare either XX or XY; female or male.

Not everyone is XX or XY.

I said yes because hormones are an important part of sex determination, but I hesitated because of chromosomes. If I thought that there were only two categories, then I would say no, but sex is a complicated thing with many factors involved, so I'd say that going through hormone therapy does alter your sex. It just doesn't completely move you from male to female or vice versa.

 

[StephanieSomer]

Can orientation change? Can you change your physical sex?

I didn't read all the responses, just the first page. Several insist that sex cannot change. The problem with their response is that "sex" has more than one meaning. Depending on which one is being considered, sometimes it can be changed, other times it cannot.

In the OP, the question is NOT can genetic sex be changed. It is "Can PHYSICAL sex be changed". Biologists and medical professionals refer to genetic sex as genotype. Physical sex is referred to as phenotype. They are not the same thing. So, in this regard, phenotype can very well be changed. And changed so completely and accurately that even a gynecologist can sometimes not realize he is seeing a surgical alteration. And, in function, it is indistinguishable except that pregnancy is not possible.

So, I would answer the question in light of what was actually asked. Yes, physical sex can be changed.

Now, orientation is an interesting quality. It has never been defined exactly what directs orientation. Are we born with it? Is it genetic? Is it cultural? Is it based on experience? Is it taught? Is it chemically directed?

I cannot answer any of these based on any scientific facts or studies. And, more than likely, neither can any of you. We all have our opinions on that question. And opinions are generally based on our own experiences and history. From my own experience as a transsexual in transition, I'd say that all of those things are in operation together in determining our orientation. It's a kind of dance of variables which results in a person's orientation. That explains very well, to me at least, why orientation seems to cover a spectrum, rather than simply this one or that one.

I did extensive study on transition before I even approached the decision. I found some that claimed their orientation did change after being on hormones for a while. Others, reported no differences at all. And still more reported that their orientation remained unchanged UNTIL after their genital surgery. That makes sense to me only if you look at orientation as a melting together of several variables which together determine orientation. In those individuals which the hormonal variable held greater sway, their orientation would change. Others, whose hormonal influence were minimal, did not. In my own experience, I have noted a swinging around from one to the other. However, in my case, orientation means very little because I am committed to total celibacy for a variety of reasons which I will not go into here.

So, I would say that, yes, orientation can also change.

 

[StephanieSomer]

Would you say, as far as orientation, that people are attracted to the sex or the gender? Is there a meaningful difference? For example, I heard about an aberrosexual couple where the male is female and the female is male, so to speak. Say the male-gone-female(mgf) is attracted to the opposite sex. If sex cannot change, but gender can, then wouldn't that mean the mgf is actually with the wrong person? Do you see what I'm getting at? That is: if gender can change but sex cannot, then doesn't that mean we should distinguish between, say, opposite sex attraction, and opposite gender attraction?(EG, the MGF in question is opposite gender attracted, and opposite sex attracted, and in essence is mixed gender-sex attracted). If so, I would say our failure to do so puts the lie to the claim that gender can really change, but sex cannot. I would say, then, that the two are ultimately inseparable.

The question isn't that easy to answer. It isn't that simple. Some individuals are attracted by gender, others by sex. And their IS a difference.

This can be demonstrated by some articles I have read concerning males who prefer transwomen over natal women. Several have attempted to understand and explain why this exists through extensive questioning of these men. What came out of it is that, essentially, these guys are attracted NOT by sex, but by gender primarily. And they all reported that transwomen tend to be more feminine in nature than natal women. Transwomen, in general, tend to celebrate their gender more so than most natal women and are willing to put more effort into their appearance. There are some guys who find that appealing and search expressly for this kind of women.

To your last statement, "the two are ultimately inseparable", I will say that this apparent fact is what I have found to be the strongest reason why people have such a hard time understanding transsexuality. I can tell you that not a single trans person I have ever interacted with would agree with that statement. However, many cisgendered people hold that to be absolute. It seems to me that those who have never experienced the discord between their sex and gender cannot discern the division between them as accurately as those who DO have a gender/sex incongruence. And since cisgendered people, in general, cannot discern the difference as accurately, they assume they are inseparable. I would disagree.

 

[StephanieSomer]

Yes, it's unfortunate. I think they should keep trying, now that they have better science and tools.



I still have a hard time divorcing the two. Your sex is your biological body parts that you are. If you say "I'm changing my gender", and then remove your genitals, and then say "My gender is changed", then gender and sex really don't seem to be different things, right? I'm trying to figure out, according to this paradigm, where the line is, and what is what?

The problem is semantic. I am not changing my gender in transition. It has been what it is for as long as I can remember. What I AM changing is my public gender expression. I no longer play the part of a male, which was always an act. Instead, I am expressing myself openly, honestly, and authentically. That which was just an act is being dropped, and that which was stuffed away and hidden is being brought out into the light.

Surgery doesn't change innate gender, it changes physical gender. What is causing the discrepancy in your understanding is the usually unstated adjectives. If you are ever in a discussion with a trans person, and cannot fully understand what they are saying, please ask for a fuller explanation. Most are more than happy to oblige.

 

[StephanieSomer]

Well, as you can see, Joykins was clearly confused, saying two synonyms did not refer to the same thing. "Identify as" seems to be harder for people to grasp with clarity. I believe its good to communicate clearly, so I'm naturally inclined to choose more lucid expression.

By rephrasing "identify as" with "claim to be", it helps bring understanding. It's like using " society "and " community "

So, I could truthfully say that you claim to be a guy. And further, that you claim to be a Catholic. Right? Since in your own statements there is no difference, you should have no issues with either of those statements.

 

[StephanieSomer]

I wish you were as deeply disturbed by the very fact that people want to even change their sex, or have SSA, to begin with.

Welcome to the world, post Sexual Degeneration:

Cutting off your genitals and saying "I'm a woman" .. not disturbing

Talking about the issues such aberrant behavior presents to society ... deeply disturbing.

Now THAT'S a fundamental transformation.

It's truly sad that you do not seem to find the agony which trans people live with before transition as disturbing. I am convinced that is because you don't believe it is as severe as trans people report it to be and you would rather dismiss it than allow them to find relief which you personally find distasteful. The real problem with your stance is that thorough, prayerful study of the Scriptures cannot produce your opinion. No doubt, you are able to piecemeal phrases from here and there to prop up your position. But, what you are standing for is not in the Scripture.

 

[StephanieSomer]

It's an interesting topic that is related to public affairs and society.



Seems to be both, depending. This entry in a medical dictionary has some interesting details.
Biological sex - definition of Biological sex by Medical dictionary

The details are interesting, but unfortunately don't make it any simpler. What do you think of it?



That's an interesting thesis. If gender identity is how you perceive yourself, then what is gender itself? I've heard some people say that gender is a 'social construct'. Is it really, though? It's a very fuzzy, blurry idea.

I've never met a trans person that finds gender to be "a very fuzzy, blurry idea". That opinion is wholly a cisgender one. Simply because you lack the abilities of a trans person to accurately discern between sex and gender.

 

[StephanieSomer]

I mean denial about the biological reality of who you are. Kind of like anorexics who think they're fat.

Also, GID seems a less cloudy term.

Who has denied the biological reality of who they are? Not I. Nor any other transperson I know. The only denial I'm seeing here is yours. The AMA has stated very clearly that GD is a medical condition. That would mean biological. You say no. Given the choice between you and the AMA. any reasonable person would have to accept the AMA over you. Sorry.

 

[MachZer0]

Who has denied the biological reality of who they are? Not I. Nor any other transperson I know. The only denial I'm seeing here is yours. The AMA has stated very clearly that GD is a medical condition. That would mean biological. You say no. Given the choice between you and the AMA. any reasonable person would have to accept the AMA over you. Sorry.

Medical Condition:"A disease, illness or injury; any physiologic, mental or psychological condition or disorder (e.g., orthopaedic; visual, speech or hearing impairments; cerebral palsy; epilepsy; muscular dystrophy; multiple sclerosis; cancer; coronary artery disease; diabetes; mental retardation; emotional or mental illness; specific learning disabilities; HIV disease; TB; drug addiction; alcoholism). A biological or psychological state which is within the range of normal human variation is not a medical condition."

That's why psychiatrists are M.D.'s, medical doctors

 

[StephanieSomer]

Medical Condition:"A disease, illness or injury; any physiologic, mental or psychological condition or disorder (e.g., orthopaedic; visual, speech or hearing impairments; cerebral palsy; epilepsy; muscular dystrophy; multiple sclerosis; cancer; coronary artery disease; diabetes; mental retardation; emotional or mental illness; specific learning disabilities; HIV disease; TB; drug addiction; alcoholism). A biological or psychological state which is within the range of normal human variation is not a medical condition."

That's why psychiatrists are M.D.'s, medical doctors

I'm not clear on what your point is. Are you saying that GD is NOT a medical condition, based on an internet dictionary? If so, I'd still believe the AMA over that. And the APA,(American Psychiatric Association), also has issued a statement very similar to that which the AMA published a few years ago.

 

[Cearbhall]

I mean denial about the biological reality of who you are. Kind of like anorexics who think they're fat.

Also, GID seems a less cloudy term.

They're not in denial about reality. They accept the reality of their biology, and their knowledge of it causes dysphoria. It would be comparable to an overweight person who is mentally distressed about being overweight (not that being transgender is unhealthy).

 

[KarateCowboy]

They're not in denial about reality. They accept the reality of their biology, and their knowledge of it causes dysphoria. It would be comparable to an overweight person who is mentally distressed about being overweight (not that being transgender is unhealthy).

Well, I suppose that if it makes you freak out, then that might be unhealthy. BTW, 'transgender' doesn't seem to really exist, since you can't change your physical gender any more than your physical species.

 

[Cute Tink]

Well, I suppose that if it makes you freak out, then that might be unhealthy. BTW, 'transgender' doesn't seem to really exist, since you can't change your physical gender any more than your physical species.

Perhaps you should actually study the issue before declaring a medical condition nonexistent. Every major medical organization recognized in the US recognizes Gender Dysphoria as a medical condition for the transgender population.

"Physical gender" doesn't exist by the way. You are referring to "physical sex."

And for almost all intents and purposes, yes it can be changed.