The Restoration of Israel, as Described in the Holy Scriptures

Interplanner said:

Keras only,
in case there is any confusion from obsessed anti-DofJ's or DofJ denialists, the 2500 references speak to plenty of other things as well besides that event (the DofJ) which most of the 1st generation of Christians went through, even if from a 'safe' distance. But they never speak about battles by Israel for the sake of Israel's independence, or as though the whole Christian church was waiting for such independence to happen, etc. Just the day of God's wrath on all mankind.

Click to expand...

To back up your claim please list the 2500 references.

See Metger's American Bible Society Greek NT, at the back. It is a standard reference tool. The boldprint and footnotes in the text distinguish between quotes and fragmentary allusions. There are 10 pages with 250 on each and then the apochryphal and non-Christian sources.

Interplanner said:

Keras only,
in case there is any confusion from obsessed anti-DofJ's or DofJ denialists, the 2500 references speak to plenty of other things as well besides that event (the DofJ) which most of the 1st generation of Christians went through, even if from a 'safe' distance. But they never speak about battles by Israel for the sake of Israel's independence, or as though the whole Christian church was waiting for such independence to happen, etc. Just the day of God's wrath on all mankind.

Click to expand...

Yes, the writers of the NT do refer to the OT [the Torah and the prophets, to them]very often. It was all they had to refer to. Even though Luke 21:22 makes it sound like all would be fulfilled in his time, it is obvious from continuing on to verse 28, that all the prophesies did not happen then; or at 70-135 CE.
This is confirmed by Luke 21:35, Romans 1:18, Hebrews 10:27, 2 Peter 3:10 and the book of Revelation.
That there is coming a Day of vengeance and wrath, [Isaiah 61:2b] a literal fulfilment of the many prophesies about it, is clear from Jesus' prophecy: As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be when I come'. Not to Return visibly, but to instigate a terrible disaster on all the world and a devastation on the Middle East.
None of the prophesies speak of the current State of Israel's battles. This is because they face this judgement as well. Nearly all the inhabitants of the holy Land are far from how God wants His people to be. Only a remnant will survive, Isaiah 29:1-8 describes it very well, esp verse 6.
Your determined denial of the truth of what God has planned is incomprehensible, because we can all see that something dramatic must happen soon, just the impossibility of any peace in the Middle East and the demographics, proves that.
Despite your best efforts I don't see where you have gained any converts to your preterist beliefs. Only Ebedmelech and he is now discredited because he refused to admit his mistaken belief of 'once saved, always saved'.

KEras wrote:
None of the prophesies speak of the current State of Israel's battles.

Thank you, but why then do you see any need for anything to happen there? Look at the day of judgement of God in rom 2, 8, I Cor 15, heb 9, 2 Tim 4, Acts 17, etc. What needs to happen in israel for that to take place? Nothing.

How, anyway, could a few events in modern or near-future Israel be the day of God's judgement? How could they be that for Israel when Israel has been through Lk 21 and it was "all that was written" of judgement and punishment for Israel (cp 1 Th 1)?

btw, I don't need numbers; and I don't see where EbedM does either. I do need things to make sense!

Making sense = if all the early church went through the upheaval of the 1st century (they did unless they completely relocated or died), then it should show in the materials they left us. It does! That makes sense. What does not make sense is the hours of sifting for "modern events" in things that have timestamps about their own times and became timeless in what transpired.

The impossibility of peace only proves to me that Judaism is as confused as Gal 3:17 said, and who needs to show that Islam is confused? Put those together and KABOOM.

OSAS is easily dismissed. I did it at Apologetics with an automaton who writes over there. No thanks spending time on that. Col 1, Heb 7, Jn 6 etc. among many.

There are very many unfulfilled prophesies in the Bible. What happened in 70-135 CE was nowhere near the vivid description of a worldwide fiery disaster that is what will happen. How this time the Lord Himself will act, not using peoples like Babylon and Rome, as He did in the past.

Ezekiel 7:14 The trumpet has sounded and all are ready, but no one goes to war as their action has called forth My wrath.
I see this verse as extremely significant, the whole context of chapter 7 is about: the land of Israel...the end is coming....a Day of panic...I will slay each for their own iniquity.....
Isaiah 21:2 and Isaiah 22:6 both mention Elam, now modern Iran, as the aggressor, these chapters are directed toward Judah and the result of what will happen, is the Word of God: Isaiah 22:14 Surely, your wickedness cannot be purged from you, you will die for it.
This judgement/punishment by fire from the sky, a CME sunstrike, will be the third 'swing of the sword', against Judah. Ezekiel 21:14 And the entire Middle East will be virtually depopulated. God's solution to the whole intractable mess!

Sure, the early Church had troubles and persecution, Jesus said they would and they continue to this day. But just look at the world today! Ask yourself W.W.J.D? The Bible gives the answer: He will use His fire to burn the chaff off the threshing floor and He will gather the wheat into His barn. Matthew 3:12

Biblewriter said:

Sodom and Samaria restoredSome nations will joyfully attack Judah because of their hatred. These will be destroyed. But less guilty nations, though also punished, will afterward be blessed along with Israel. In Ezekiel 16:53‑55 the Lord says “When I bring back their captives, the captives of Sodom and her daughters, and the captives of Samaria and her daughters, then I will also bring back the captives of your captivity among them, that you may bear your own shame and be disgraced by all that you did when you comforted them. When your sisters, Sodom and her daughters, return to their former state, and Samaria and her daughters return to their former state, then you and your daughters will return to your former state.”

Click to expand...

James, I have been reading your narrative, and I must say that you have done a lot of work. Of course, it is based entirely on a faulty hermeneutic; but that does not take away from the tremendous amount of effort you have put forth in an attempt to prove the unprovable.

But I could not let you get away with your incredible claim about the restoration of Sodom and Samaria. Did you even bother to read that chapter? The Lord explicitly laid out the harlotry of Jerusalem. It was the Great harlot of Babylon, indeed! The Lord said Samaria and Sodom did not commit half the sins of Jerusalem (Eze 16:49-51.) That is saying something. Even an impartial (non-Christian) observer made similar claims about the wickedness of the Jews of that age:


That was from a Jewish priest talking about his own people!

The theme of Ezekiel 16 is that the Lord was telling Jerusalem that it would NEVER be restored to its former estate, until Samaria or Sodom were restored to their former estates. The problem with your theory is, they will never be restored, nor will Jerusalem.

Shortly after the New Covenant was established by Christ, as promised in that same chapter (Ezekiel 16:60), that wicked place of harlotry and bondage (Sodom and Egypt, aka Jerusalem) was completely destroyed and left desolate. Does that sound like the Lord had planned to restore it?
.

There are so many markers I cannot understand how you missed them all? For example, this is Isaiah:


Does that sound like Sodom will ever be restored? Paul quotes Isaiah. Let's check out his explanation:


No help for Sodom there. What do the other prophecies say about Sodom?








There is not a whisper about Sodom being restored; it is only used as a symbol of wickedness and desolation. How about in the New Testament?



Note that the Lord is continuing the theme of Ezekiel 16, recognizing that he is ministering in an area more wicked than even Sodom: an area that would receive even greater punishment than Sodom on the day of Judgement
.

James, Sodom was not a nice place; and Jerusalem was far worse: even twice as bad, according to Ezekiel. There is no way it will ever be restored in the eyes of God. Maybe in the eyes of Satan in his vain attempt to deceive the nations; but not in the eyes of God. The Lord has spoken.
.

Rev20 said in post 567:

But I could not let you get away with your incredible claim about the restoration of Sodom and Samaria. Did you even bother to read that chapter? The Lord explicitly laid out the harlotry of Jerusalem. It was the Great harlot of Babylon, indeed!

Click to expand...

Note that passages like Ezekiel 16 calling Jerusalem a "harlot" doesn't require that Jerusalem alone must be the entirety of what the symbolic harlot "Babylon" in Revelation chapters 17-18 represents, just as, for example, Nahum 3:4 doesn't require that Nineveh alone (Nahum 1:1) is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". Similarly, Isaiah 23:15-16 doesn't require that Tyre alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Ezekiel 23:4-8,44 doesn't require that Samaria alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Jeremiah 3:6-7 and Hosea 4:15 don't require that the northern kingdom of Israel alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Ezekiel 20:30 and Ezekiel 43:7 don't require that the house of Israel alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Hosea 5:3 and Hosea 6:10 don't require that Ephraim alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". Instead, the corrupt aspects of all of these and of all other cities and nations throughout the earth and throughout history can be included as only parts of what Revelation's "Babylon" represents.

Ezekiel 16:46 means that the corrupt aspects of the harlot "sisters" Samaria, Jerusalem, and Sodom all arose from one, other mother, who would be the symbolic "Babylon" in Revelation chapters 17-18, the "mother" of harlots (Revelation 17:5).

Rev20 said in post 567:

The Lord explicitly laid out the harlotry of Jerusalem. It was the Great harlot of Babylon, indeed!

Click to expand...

Note that while the corrupt aspects of 1st century AD Jerusalem are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of 1st century AD Jerusalem. For 1st century AD Jerusalem just by itself didn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor was 1st century AD Jerusalem the only place where people bought merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor had 1st century AD Jerusalem just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor had 1st century AD Jerusalem been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

In Revelation 11:8, the great city is Jerusalem, where Jesus was crucified. But in Revelation 21:10, the great city is New Jerusalem, which is now in heaven. And in Revelation 14:8, Revelation 17:18, and Revelation 18:10-21, the great city is the symbolic harlot/city of Babylon. When it's destroyed, it will be found no more at all (Revelation 18:21), forever (Revelation 19:3), unlike Jerusalem, which was found again after its only-temporary destruction in 70 AD.

The 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the earth (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number six in English gematria), at the time of the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Near the very end of the future tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his 10 kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break all our chains of attachment to this vile physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [Isaiah 14:13-14]".

Of course this will be a lie. For at his 2nd coming, Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat the world's armies, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit during the subsequent 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15). And Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). He will even restore Sodom (Ezekiel 16:53-56), despite its past sinfulness (Ezekiel 16:49-50, Genesis 19:4-5, Jude 1:7), just as he will restore Jerusalem (Zechariah 14), the sins of which were even greater than those of Sodom (Ezekiel 16:48, Ezekiel 16:2-63, Matthew 23:34-39). And after the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new 1st heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-4).

Bible2 said:

Note that passages like Ezekiel 16 calling Jerusalem a "harlot" doesn't require that Jerusalem alone must be the entirety of what the symbolic harlot "Babylon" in Revelation chapters 17-18 represents, just as, for example, Nahum 3:4 doesn't require that Nineveh alone (Nahum 1:1) is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". Similarly, Isaiah 23:15-16 doesn't require that Tyre alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Ezekiel 23:4-8,44 doesn't require that Samaria alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Jeremiah 3:6-7 and Hosea 4:15 don't require that the northern kingdom of Israel alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Ezekiel 20:30 and Ezekiel 43:7 don't require that the house of Israel alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Hosea 5:3 and Hosea 6:10 don't require that Ephraim alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". Instead, the corrupt aspects of all of these and of all other cities and nations throughout the earth and throughout history can be included as only parts of what Revelation's "Babylon" represents.

Ezekiel 16:46 means that the corrupt aspects of the harlot "sisters" Samaria, Jerusalem, and Sodom all arose from one, other mother, who would be the symbolic "Babylon" in Revelation chapters 17-18, the "mother" of harlots (Revelation 17:5).

Click to expand...

If you can show us in the scripture where the blood of all the prophets is on the head of any other city besides Jerusalem, you will have both my ear, and my deepest appreciation. But as it currently written, the blood of all the prophets was only on Jerusalem:


The blood of the prophets included Jesus Christ:


The last thing Stephen said, before being stoned to death by the Jews, was this:


And they continued their mean and bloodthirsty ways until they were destroyed:



This was not their first punishment for this type of offence:


But this time it was all inconclusive, covering all the bloody ways of Satan, beginning with Abel:



[The saints Christ was referring to in verse 24 were the "Saints of the Most High" (Dan 7:18); not those assigned "sainthood" by a committee of men.]
.

And why was that generation responsible for the death of Abel? Because they were the continuation of the bad seed; they were the Esau's; they were the seed of the Serpent:




I realize this is a difficult thing to understand, considering all we have been preached most of our lives; but they were not the children of the promise--the chosen people, but were the children of Satan. This was Jesus telling them they were not children of Abraham, as they themselves believed:


No matter how it is analyzed, it all leads back to first century Jews being responsible for the blood of all the prophets. But, as promised, the Lord did not abandon his people altogether. A small remnant were decent, honourable, faithful people, and they were saved:


In the King James, Isaiah's words were, "a very small remnant". In the Septuagint, his words were, "a seed":


.

Bible2 said:

Note that while the corrupt aspects of 1st century AD Jerusalem are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of 1st century AD Jerusalem. For 1st century AD Jerusalem just by itself didn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18).

Click to expand...

How many kings of the earth are we referring to? Two? All of them? How many?

I would hesitate to bet all my marbles on an easily mistranslated verse like Revelation 17:18. The underlying Greek word for "earth" is "ghay" (Strong's 1093), which does not necessarily mean the entire earth. It is also used in this manner:




This is that last verse in context:


Do you believe that was referring to any land but Judaea? Judaea was also implemented in that manner:


I believe we have established that the word "earth" in Rev 17:18 could have just as easily been translated as the "land," which, in the context of the New Testament, would have meant the land of Judaea.
.

But what about the word "kings"? The Greek word "basileus" (Strong's 935) could also mean "a sovereign". But the most definitive use is that found in Acts 4:25-27:


Herod was a "client king" of the Roman province of Judaea, and he reigned with an iron fist (a bloody one, at that) until about 4 AD. Pilate was not a king, but a provincial governor of Judaea.

So, who were the "kings" (plural) who were gathered together against the Lord? Pilate had to be one, and the sovereign(s) of the city of Jerusalem could have been the other(s), but only if translated as sovereigns, rather than "royalty". But who actually "ruled" at that time? Pilate wanted to let Jesus go free, but the Jewish leaders were the ones who were in fact "gathered together" against him.
.

And what about the word for "reigneth" from Rev 17:18? That was derived from two Greek words, "echo" (Strongs 2192) and "basileus" (Strongs 932), which means, "to hold" and "rule",

Therefore, "reigneth over the kings of the earth" can also be translated as "ruled over the sovereigns of the land of Judaea". And Jerusalem most definitely ruled over the land of Judaea.
.

I have to run some errands. I will get back to this later.
.

[only here to make a point; there is no such 3rd Thess]

Paul,
to the church at Thessalonica.
Grace and peace in our Lord Jesus Christ.
I just realized after sending the 2nd letter to you that I forgot to say: none of these things I mentioned about our Lord's coming will happen for X000 years! Sorry about all the zeal and fire in the previous letters, but it doesn't have anything to do with you. I was just a bit excited, after hearing people retell what they heard Christ say that last week of his life about things to come.

In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
His servant,
Paul.

Interplanner said:

[only here to make a point; there is no such 3rd Thess]

Paul,
to the church at Thessalonica.
Grace and peace in our Lord Jesus Christ.
I just realized after sending the 2nd letter to you that I forgot to say: none of these things I mentioned about our Lord's coming will happen for X000 years! Sorry about all the zeal and fire in the previous letters, but it doesn't have anything to do with you. I was just a bit excited, after hearing people retell what they heard Christ say that last week of his life about things to come.

In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
His servant,
Paul.

Click to expand...

Preterism continues to raise its ugly head!

riverrat said:

Preterism continues to raise its ugly head!

Click to expand...

How did the Church survive before Darby and Scofield, and the nastiness they generated?
.

Bible2 said:

Nor was 1st century AD Jerusalem the only place where people bought merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor had 1st century AD Jerusalem just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor had 1st century AD Jerusalem been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

Click to expand...

I am of the opinion that all of your interpretations are based on an underlying notion that the book of the Revelation is referring to the entire earth as we understand it, and not as the target audience of the Revelation (the early Christians) would have understood it. It is natural for men to believe the Word is written only for their personal understanding, but that has never been the case. Even the disciples did not understand it until Jesus explained it to them in detail (Luke 24:27); and even Jesus had to be ministered unto by angels (Matt 4:11) The Jewish leadership most certainly did not understand it, nor their rabbis.

For example, this is Rev 18:11, with the word earth replaced with the most common usage of that Greek word in the New Testament:


When the word "land" was used without a qualifier (e.g., the land of Egypt), it typically meant the land of Israel or Judaea. Have you ever considered that maybe Jesus was referring to the land of Judaea in most or all instances where the word "earth" was used? It has been demonstrated over and over again that the words "all the world" in the New Testament simply meant the Roman Empire.

And what was that merchandise? The list in Rev 18:13-13 includes many things that were used to adorn the outrageously extravagant temple complex and staff. And what about chariots? There are not too many of those being sold today, except to reenactors. Of course, you could pretend that word meant "cars".

But in all fairness the underlying Greek word "rheda" means four-wheeled carriage, commonly used in ancient Rome. And how big is the market for frankincense and slaves these days? And what about thyine wood, which comes from North Africa? Do you know anyone who has ever seen it? LOL! That wood was used for fine furniture in ancient Rome, and possibly in the Herod's temple, since no expense was spared to adorn that temple.
.

Bible2 said:

In Revelation 11:8, the great city is Jerusalem, where Jesus was crucified. But in Revelation 21:10, the great city is New Jerusalem, which is now in heaven.

Click to expand...

That is correct. The great city is the Lord's wife, in a manner of speaking. God divorced old Jerusalem because of its whoredom, destroyed it, and heavenly Jerusalem (the Church) became His new wife.

The harlotry of Jerusalem was prophesied over and over again. I guess the Lord decided he had been married to a harlot long enough.
.

Bible2 said:

And in Revelation 14:8, Revelation 17:18, and Revelation 18:10-21, the great city is the symbolic harlot/city of Babylon. When it's destroyed, it will be found no more at all (Revelation 18:21), forever (Revelation 19:3), unlike Jerusalem, which was found again after its only-temporary destruction in 70 AD.

Click to expand...

Babylon the Great was Jerusalem, and could not have been any other city: past, present or future. Jerusalem was responsible for the blood of all the prophets. Babylon was responsible for the blood of all the prophets. It is as simple as that.

God left Jerusalem in the days of Christ. Read this carefully:


Recall also that Christ early on called the Temple "my Father's house" (John 2:16). But later, when speaking to the Pharisees, called it "your house":


Similar words can be found in reference to Babylon the Great:



The bridegroom (Christ) had already left Jerusalem, even in the days of Christ. The divorce came later about the time the city was destroyed.

That place in modern Palestine is not, nor will ever be Jerusalem in the eyes of God. It is a secular state created by wealthy men with an agenda; not by God.
.

Bible2 said:

The 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the earth (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number six in English gematria), at the time of the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Click to expand...

Who were the ten horns? First, it is important to understand that they were not kings, until the beast gave them power as kings; and he gave them power for only "one hour" (Rev 17:12), the exact "time" it took to make Babylon desolate (Rev 18:19, above). Therefore, the ten horns were most likely the generals of ten Roman armies (or legions) that surrounded Jerusalem, or ten provincial governors who controlled those legions and sent them to Titus. Whatever the case, they were responsible for the destruction of Jerusalem:

.

Bible2 said:

Near the very end of the future tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his 10 kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break all our chains of attachment to this vile physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [Isaiah 14:13-14]".

Click to expand...

The great tribulation ended in 70 AD, on schedule. And this planet is going nowhere. Rather, it will be healed (Rev 22:2) once that miserable Satan and his children are destroyed, for good.
.

Bible2 said:

Of course this will be a lie. For at his 2nd coming, Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat the world's armies, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21).

Click to expand...

I don't know who YHWH is. I cannot even pronounce it. But I do believe that Jesus is the Father because he personally said he is, twice:



John said the same thing, in a roundabout way:




There are also these supporting verses:




.

Regarding the 2nd part of your statement, Jesus has already defeated those armies. Revelation 16:14 was referring to the Jewish-Roman War of the 1st Century. The great city, which was Jerusalem was also experiencing a horrific civil war, according to Josephus, where three factions were battling for power (e.g., divided into three parts.) But Ezekiel also prophesied of three parts, as follows:


Ezekiel, like Moses in Deut 28, foretold the cannibalism:


Josephus explained the fulfillment of 16:21:


.

Regarding Revelation 19, no one understands that chapter. Be suspicious of anyone who claims to understand it.

One passage, however, is important to understand because so many false prophecies and teachings have been based upon it. That part spans verses 11-15, and symbolically represents Christ and the armies which follow him. All you need to understand is that Christ and his armies are in heaven, and there is no mention of either of them being on the earth at any time. Also notice that in verse 15, the sword of the Lord comes out of his mouth.

Therefore, at best, we might be able to interpret those verses as Christ and his armies in heaven directing the events of battles on earth.
.

Bible2 said:

And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit during the subsequent 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15). And Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). He will even restore Sodom (Ezekiel 16:53-56), despite its past sinfulness (Ezekiel 16:49-50, Genesis 19:4-5, Jude 1:7), just as he will restore Jerusalem (Zechariah 14), the sins of which were even greater than those of Sodom (Ezekiel 16:48, Ezekiel 16:2-63, Matthew 23:34-39). And after the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new 1st heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-4).

Click to expand...

Satan was bound after the destruction of Jerusalem when many of his children and their synagogues were destroyed. Christ explained how the leadership of Jerusalem were children of Satan. And note these similarities between Babylon and Satan:



I believe Satan was released again to deceive the nations during the past century. Christianity was growing until then; and only recently has Satan consolidated his deceptive power to the point that what was once understood to be evil is now good, and vice versa.
.

Rev20 said in post 569:

But as it currently written, the blood of all the prophets was only on Jerusalem . . .

Click to expand...

Regarding the symbolic "Babylon" in Revelation chapters 17-18, Matthew 23:35-37 could mean that at the time that Jesus spoke Matthew 23:35, in God's eyes Jerusalem was, as it were, the "crowning city" (cf. Isaiah 23:8) of mankind's corrupt religions, one leg of the corrupt world-system represented by Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 18:24). Today in God's eyes, Jerusalem may again be the "crowning city" of mankind's corrupt religions, as it is held sacred by 3 different religions (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam), 2 of which religions are the largest in the world (Christianity and Islam) in terms of the number of people who claim to adhere to them.

But Revelation's symbolic "Babylon", in its entirety, represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

The corrupt world-system represented by Revelation's "Babylon" may currently be headquartered in Washington DC and New York City, insofar as Washington DC may currently be "the crowning city" (cf. Isaiah 23:8) of mankind's corrupt politics, the first leg of Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 17:18). And New York City may currently be "the crowning city" of mankind's corrupt economics, the 2nd leg of Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 18:11). "The crowning city" of mankind's corrupt religions, the 3rd leg of Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 18:24), may (again) currently be Jerusalem, as it was back in the 1st century AD (Matthew 23:35-38). Ultimately, all 3 legs of Revelation's "Babylon" will become headquartered in the literal, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq), which the Antichrist, during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), will make the capital of the world, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

Tyre was "the crowning city" of mankind's corrupt economics at one point in ancient times (Isaiah 23:8). God allowed the destruction of ancient Tyre as a lesson, an example, "to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth" (Isaiah 23:9). In the same way, would God allow the future destruction of Washington DC and New York City by terrorist nuclear bombs, as a lesson, an example, "to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth"?

Also, the Bible teaches that, without repentance, what is sown is reaped (Galatians 6:7). And 2 nuclear bombs (developed in the "Manhattan" Project) were sown by the U.S. against 2 major cities in Japan (Hiroshima and Nagasaki) in order to terrorize Japan into surrender during World War II. So could the U.S. in the future reap 2 terrorist nuclear bombs against 2 of its own major cities (including Manhattan)? Could the U.S. avoid this fate by publicly repenting before God and asking him and Japan for forgiveness for the U.S. intentionally targeting and murdering 150,000 innocent civilian men, women, and children living in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Could the 9/11 terrorists being allowed by God to intentionally target and murder 3,000 innocent civilian men, women, and children in New York City's Twin Towers and elsewhere in the U.S. have been just a warning to the U.S., a mere shot across its bow, to try to get the U.S. to repent for what it did to the 2 cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? But could the U.S. continue to refuse to repent for its nuclear terrorism against Japan, leaving the way open for nuclear terrorism against the U.S.?

Also, a "restrainer" must be taken out of the way before the Antichrist can come into worldwide power (2 Thessalonians 2:6-9, Revelation 13:4-18). This restrainer could be a powerful angel like the one who will restrain Satan at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:1-3). It could be Michael the archangel, the angelic prince over Israel (Daniel 12:1, Daniel 10:21,13). Michael could also currently be the angelic prince over the U.S., making sure it supports Israel. Part of Michael's being taken out of the way, just enough to allow the Antichrist to come into worldwide power, could be God removing Michael's protection of the U.S. just enough to allow Washington DC and New York City to be nuked by terrorists. This could weaken the U.S. not only by the destruction of its political and economic capitals, but also by the subsequent run on the U.S. dollar which could occur, rendering it close to worthless in world markets. The U.S. government could then finally go bankrupt, unable to finance any longer its huge debt, economy, and military. Its days as a superpower (but not as a nation) will be over, opening the way for the Antichrist to come into worldwide power (Revelation 13:4-18).

If Washington DC and New York City are attacked with nuclear bombs, will this really be the work of terrorists, such as Islamic jihadis? Or could it be a "false flag" operation, one presented to the world as an Islamic-jihadi attack, when in fact it will have been carefully stage-managed from behind the scenes by a powerful cabal, a worldwide secret society of Gnostic Luciferians, as part of their careful, step-by-step plan to prepare the way for the Antichrist (who is a Gnostic Luciferian: 1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4) to take over the world?

For example, could the Gnostic Luciferian cabal secretly equip some Islamic-jihadi group in Pakistan with 2 nukes and the means to get them into the U.S. and detonate them in New York City and Washington DC? For example, could the 2 nukes be secretly built in North Korea, secretly sold to Iran, secretly delivered to Iran via a plane crossing China, secretly handed off by Iran to the cabal's Islamic-jihadi group in Pakistan, secretly boated over to Thailand, and then secretly brought into the U.S. via 2 shipping containers from Thailand into the Port Newark, New Jersey Container Terminal? And could the 2 shipping containers have been lined with enough lead so as to thwart any radiation-detectors at the Terminal? And could these shipping containers have been filled mostly with tile, kitty litter, or bananas, which give off a natural radiation, so that if the containers are opened and inspected by hand for radiation, it will be thought that the radiation is just from the tile, kitty litter, or bananas, and not from nuclear bombs packed inside lead sarcophagi hidden in the center of the containers?

Could both containers in this way get past U.S. inspection? (And could the Gnostic Luciferian cabal also be careful to have its own hand-picked and extremely-well bribed and blackmailed inspectors on duty when the containers are passing through U.S. inspection, to make sure that the containers aren't among the relatively few which get scanned by x-rays?) And after passing inspection, could one of the containers be trucked to a New Jersey warehouse, where the nuke will be extracted and placed into a smaller, lead-lined, tile-filled delivery truck, which will then be driven into the very heart of Manhattan, where the nuke will be detonated at a pre-arranged, exact time? And could the other container be trucked to an Alexandria, Virginia warehouse, where the nuke will be extracted and placed into a large SUV? Could the SUV then be driven to a small, local airport in northern Virginia, where the nuke will be loaded in the dead of night onto a private jet? Could the jet then be flown over the very heart of Washington DC, where the nuke will be detonated at the same exact time as the one in Manhattan?

(And even besides this, could a 3rd, nuke-containing shipping container from Thailand end up in a vast shipping-container lot in the Port of Long Beach, California, right next to Los Angeles? And could the Gnostic Luciferian cabal not even bother to have the nuke extracted and driven into or flown over downtown Los Angeles, but simply have the nuke detonated right there in Long Beach harbor (at the same exact time as the one in Manhattan), so that it completely destroys the major west coast port of the U.S., and wipes out much of hugely-populated Los Angeles and Orange Counties? And could the Gnostic Luciferian cabal's puppet-"Islamic terrorists" claim that they nuked Los Angeles because it contains Hollywood, and contains the San Fernando Valley, a center for inappropriate contentographic video production, so that Los Angeles has contributed greatly to the corrupt entertainment culture that dominates the world today, even in Islamic countries behind closed doors?)

-

Regarding Jerusalem getting destroyed, at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will attack and pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including a 3rd Jewish temple (which will be built) and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall) being completely broken down so that not one stone will be left upon another throughout the city (Luke 19:44). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem in righteousness and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4), during his literal, 1,000-year physical reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

Rev20 said in post 569:

The underlying Greek word for "earth" is "ghay" (Strong's 1093), which does not necessarily mean the entire earth.

Click to expand...

The original Greek word translated as "earth" (ge: G1093) often refers to the planet in both the Gospels and Revelation (Matthew 5:18, Matthew 6:10,19, Matthew 9:6, Matthew 10:34, Matthew 11:25, Matthew 12:40,42, Matthew 16:19, Matthew 17:25, Matthew 18:18-19, Matthew 23:9, Matthew 24:30,35, Matthew 28:18, Mark 2:10, Mark 4:28,31, Mark 13:27,31, Luke 2:14, Luke 5:24, Luke 6:49, Luke 10:21, Luke 11:2,31, Luke 12:49,51,56, Luke 16:17, Luke 18:8, Luke 21:25,33,35, John 3:31, John 12:32, John 17:4, Revelation 1:7, Revelation 5:3,6,10,13, Revelation 6:4,10,15, Revelation 7:1-3, Revelation 8:13, Revelation 9:3-4, Revelation 10:6, Revelation 11:4,6,10,18, Revelation 12:12, Revelation 13:3 (world), Revelation 13:8,12,14, Revelation 14:3,6,7, Revelation 14:15-16, Revelation 16:1,2,18, Revelation 17:2,5,8,18, Revelation 18:3,9,11,23,24, Revelation 19:2,19, Revelation 20:8).

Rev20 said in post 569:

"Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? The kings<935> of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together," -- Acts 4:25-27

Click to expand...

Acts 4:24-28 doesn't say or mean that Psalms 2 was fulfilled at the time of Jesus' first coming. It simply means that the basic idea of Psalms 2, of God the Father allowing human rulers and people to conspire against Christ, was similar to how God the Father had allowed Jesus to be killed (Acts 2:23).

Psalms 2:1-3 in its specific sense refers to what will happen after the future millennium, at the time of the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). For it will be during the future millennium that the kings of the earth will have been placed under the bands/cords (Psalms 2:3), i.e. the physical rule, of the returned Jesus (Psalms 2:6, Psalms 72:8-11, Psalms 66:3).

Rev20 said in post 573:

Recall also that Christ early on called the Temple "my Father's house" (John 2:16). But later, when speaking to the Pharisees, called it "your house":

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." -- Mt 23:37-38

Click to expand...

Matthew 23:38 refers to the spiritual desolation of Jerusalem (Matthew 23:37) insofar as it rejects Jesus (1 John 5:12b, cf. Galatians 4:25), while Matthew 23:39 refers to the future salvation of the unbelieving, elect Jews who will be living in Jerusalem at Jesus' 2nd coming, when they will see him in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:26-29).

Also, Matthew 23:38, like Matthew 27:51, didn't mean that the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem had become spiritually desolate. For it remained holy even after Jesus' death and resurrection. That's why the church continued to worship God there (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17). What the rending of the veil in Matthew 27:51 pictured was the opening of the holiest place in heaven to Christians (Hebrews 10:19-22, Hebrews 9:24), by the abolishing of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-27, Hebrews 10:9b), and by the establishment of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28), at the moment that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins (Hebrews 9:15-17, Hebrews 10:19-20, Matthew 27:50-51).

The rending of the veil in Matthew 27:51 didn't mean that God no longer dwelt in the 2nd temple (as in Matthew 23:21). That's why (again) the church continued to worship God in the 2nd temple even after Jesus' death and physical resurrection (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17).

Rev20 said in post 573:

Who were the ten horns?

Click to expand...

The 10 kings/horns of the beast in its Antichrist's-empire aspect (Revelation 17:3,12, Revelation 13:1) can be 10 men whom the Antichrist will appoint as kings over 10 major nations, which nations could be the 10 horns in Daniel 7:24. For In Daniel 7, the first 3 beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). And the 4th beast, or 4th "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman empire. And the 10 horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent 10 major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa.

These 10 nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria. The 10 part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the 10 horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron, and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43, the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany, but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Arab Algerians living in France, but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one confederation. For Daniel 2:42 refers to the 10 as a singular "kingdom". The person who brings this about could be the Antichrist. The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9), which is "diverse" from the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24), could mean that the Antichrist will arise from a little country.

And the little horn arising from "among" the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:8) could mean that the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman empire. And before that, it was part of one of the 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these 4 kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist confederation of 3 of the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt, "toward the south" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9), and Iraq and Syria, "toward the east" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9). This confederation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine, i.e. a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land" (Daniel 8:9).

This Baathist confederation could be put together in the future by an Iraqi Baathist General who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control of all 10 of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), like when Napoleon gained control of different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.

Rev20 said in post 573:

First, it is important to understand that they were not kings, until the beast gave them power as kings . . .

Click to expand...

All 10 men will "receive power as kings one hour with the beast" (Revelation 17:12). That is, all 10 will receive power at the same time, and only when the (never fulfilled) Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will receive power for a literal 42 months (Revelation 13:4-18).

Rev20 said in post 573:

. . . and he gave them power for only "one hour" (Rev 17:12) . . .

Click to expand...

In Revelation 17:12, the original Greek word (hora: G5610) translated as "hour" can refer to any period of "time". For example, the last "hora" (Greek) or "time" (KJV) of 1 John 2:18 has been going on for the last 2,000 years. In the case of Revelation 17:12, it's referring to the (never fulfilled) time of the literal 42-month worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18).

Rev20 said in post 573:

Josephus explained the fulfillment of 16:21 . . .

Click to expand...

Revelation 16:21 refers to 100-pound hailstones which will be literal hailstones, just as the plagues of hailstones from God in Exodus 9:25 and Joshua 10:11 were literal hailstones. Also, the 100-pound hailstones in Revelation 16:21 will plague mankind in general, and only after the never-fulfilled first 6 vials have all been fulfilled in our future. Also at the 7th vial, right before Jesus returns (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), there will be a huge earthquake which will affect the whole world (Revelation 16:18-20). And Revelation's symbolic (and worldwide) "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) will be destroyed when the cities of the earth are destroyed at the time of the 7th vial (Revelation 16:19). None of these things has happened yet. So the 7th vial hasn't happened yet.

-

The world won't experience the 7 last plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation chapters 15-16), the last stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, until after the never-fulfilled Revelation chapters 6 to 15 have been fulfilled. At the 1st vial, an awful sore will appear on only those people who will have received the Antichrist's mark and worshipped his image (Revelation 16:2). At the 2nd vial, the sea will become like the blood of a dead man, and every living creature in the sea will die (Revelation 16:3). At the 3rd vial, all natural, surface sources of fresh water will become blood (Revelation 16:4). At the 4th vial, men will be scorched with fire shot out from the sun (Revelation 16:8). This would be a solar-flare coronal mass ejection of solar plasma, which could make its way down to the surface of the earth due to the earth's magnetic field being disrupted during a magnetic-pole reversal which could occur near the end of the future tribulation.

At the 5th vial, the whole world will be plunged into literal darkness (Revelation 16:10). At the 6th vial, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan: Revelation 12:9), and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together in an attempt to defeat YHWH God (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). The Euphrates will dry up so that the armies of "the kings of the east" (Revelation 16:12) (i.e. the vast armies of China, India, Pakistan, Japan, Iran, Indonesia) can easily cross the riverbed and gather at the "place" called Armageddon (Revelation 16:16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel). Once they have gathered there, as only a staging area, with all the other armies of the world (Revelation 16:14,16), they won't wage battle there (that's why the Bible doesn't refer to a "battle" of Armageddon). Instead, they will travel south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus returns and defeats them (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

At the 7th vial, right before Jesus returns (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), there will be a huge earthquake which will affect the whole world (Revelation 16:18-20), and 100-pound hailstones will pummel the earth (Revelation 16:21). The 7th vial will also be when Revelation's symbolic (and worldwide) "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) will be destroyed (Revelation 16:19).

B2,
it's weird how you use the word "spiritual" when the line is about the DofJ. It was a spiritual event, but it was also solidly historical.

Can't follow you after that because, in context (cp ch 21) all he means about singing Ps 118 is that that is what believing Jews will have to do. It is not a prediction. He has many expressions phrased this way that are not predictions; they are just sharply or controversially stated. The NT is not preoccupied with the distant future the way "prophecy experts" are.

Rev20 said:

How did the Church survive before Darby and Scofield, and the nastiness they generated?
.

Click to expand...

I am not following you. Do you mean "after" instead of "before"?

Interplanner said:

[only here to make a point; there is no such 3rd Thess]

Paul,
to the church at Thessalonica.
Grace and peace in our Lord Jesus Christ.
I just realized after sending the 2nd letter to you that I forgot to say: none of these things I mentioned about our Lord's coming will happen for X000 years! Sorry about all the zeal and fire in the previous letters, but it doesn't have anything to do with you. I was just a bit excited, after hearing people retell what they heard Christ say that last week of his life about things to come.

In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
His servant,
Paul.

Click to expand...

In Paul's second epistle to the Thessalonians he promised them that the Lord would come from heaven to give them rest from their persecutions (2 Thessalonians 1:3-8). Our misguided friend Riverrat says it never happened. So Paul was a false prophet. And if Paul was a false prophet, then we must trash all his epistles.

riverrat said:

I am not following you. Do you mean "after" instead of "before"?

Click to expand...

I was being facetious. They, and their ardent followers, are a nasty bunch, generally.
.

Rev20 said:

I am of the opinion that all of your interpretations are based on an underlying notion that the book of the Revelation is referring to the entire earth as we understand it, and not as the target audience of the Revelation (the early Christians) would have understood it. It is natural for men to believe the Word is written only for their personal understanding, but that has never been the case. Even the disciples did not understand it until Jesus explained it to them in detail (Luke 24:27); and even Jesus had to be ministered unto by angels (Matt 4:11) The Jewish leadership most certainly did not understand it, nor their rabbis.

For example, this is Rev 18:11, with the word earth replaced with the most common usage of that Greek word in the New Testament:

"And the merchants of the "land" shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:" -- Rev 18:11​

When the word "land" was used without a qualifier (e.g., the land of Egypt), it typically meant the land of Israel or Judaea. Have you ever considered that maybe Jesus was referring to the land of Judaea in most or all instances where the word "earth" was used? It has been demonstrated over and over again that the words "all the world" in the New Testament simply meant the Roman Empire.

And what was that merchandise? The list in Rev 18:13-13 includes many things that were used to adorn the outrageously extravagant temple complex and staff. And what about chariots? There are not too many of those being sold today, except to reenactors. Of course, you could pretend that word meant "cars".

But in all fairness the underlying Greek word "rheda" means four-wheeled carriage, commonly used in ancient Rome. And how big is the market for frankincense and slaves these days? And what about thyine wood, which comes from North Africa? Do you know anyone who has ever seen it? LOL! That wood was used for fine furniture in ancient Rome, and possibly in the Herod's temple, since no expense was spared to adorn that temple.
.



That is correct. The great city is the Lord's wife, in a manner of speaking. God divorced old Jerusalem because of its whoredom, destroyed it, and heavenly Jerusalem (the Church) became His new wife.

The harlotry of Jerusalem was prophesied over and over again. I guess the Lord decided he had been married to a harlot long enough.
.



Babylon the Great was Jerusalem, and could not have been any other city: past, present or future. Jerusalem was responsible for the blood of all the prophets. Babylon was responsible for the blood of all the prophets. It is as simple as that.

God left Jerusalem in the days of Christ. Read this carefully:

"Then came to him the disciples of John, saying, Why do we and the Pharisees fast oft, but thy disciples fast not? And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them [the disciples], and then shall they fast." -- Mt 9:14-15​

Recall also that Christ early on called the Temple "my Father's house" (John 2:16). But later, when speaking to the Pharisees, called it "your house":

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." -- Mt 23:37-38​

Similar words can be found in reference to Babylon the Great:

"And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." -- Rev 18:24​

". . . in one hour is she made desolate." -- Rev 18:19​

The bridegroom (Christ) had already left Jerusalem, even in the days of Christ. The divorce came later about the time the city was destroyed.

That place in modern Palestine is not, nor will ever be Jerusalem in the eyes of God. It is a secular state created by wealthy men with an agenda; not by God.
.



Who were the ten horns? First, it is important to understand that they were not kings, until the beast gave them power as kings; and he gave them power for only "one hour" (Rev 17:12), the exact "time" it took to make Babylon desolate (Rev 18:19, above). Therefore, the ten horns were most likely the generals of ten Roman armies (or legions) that surrounded Jerusalem, or ten provincial governors who controlled those legions and sent them to Titus. Whatever the case, they were responsible for the destruction of Jerusalem:

"And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire." -- Rev 17:16​

.



The great tribulation ended in 70 AD, on schedule. And this planet is going nowhere. Rather, it will be healed (Rev 22:2) once that miserable Satan and his children are destroyed, for good.
.



I don't know who YHWH is. I cannot even pronounce it. But I do believe that Jesus is the Father because he personally said he is, twice:

"I and my Father are one." -- Jn 10:30​

"Jesus saith unto [Philip], Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" -- Jn 14:9​

John said the same thing, in a roundabout way:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. . . All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." -- Jn 1:1, 3​

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." -- Jn 1:14​

"He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not." -- Jn 1:10​

There are also these supporting verses:

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." -- Jn 8:58​

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." -- Isa 9:6​

"Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear." -- Isa 45:22-23​

". . . they shall look upon me whom they have pierced." -- Zec 12:10​

.

Regarding the 2nd part of your statement, Jesus has already defeated those armies. Revelation 16:14 was referring to the Jewish-Roman War of the 1st Century. The great city, which was Jerusalem was also experiencing a horrific civil war, according to Josephus, where three factions were battling for power (e.g., divided into three parts.) But Ezekiel also prophesied of three parts, as follows:

"Thou shalt burn with fire a third part in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege are fulfilled: and thou shalt take a third part, and smite about it with a knife: and a third part thou shalt scatter in the wind; and I will draw out a sword after them. Thou shalt also take thereof a few in number, and bind them in thy skirts. Then take of them again, and cast them into the midst of the fire, and burn them in the fire; for thereof shall a fire come forth into all the house of Israel. Thus saith the Lord God; This is Jerusalem: I have set it in the midst of the nations and countries that are round about her." -- Eze 5:2-5​

Ezekiel, like Moses in Deut 28, foretold the cannibalism:

"Therefore the fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers; and I will execute judgments in thee, and the whole remnant of thee will I scatter into all the winds. Wherefore, as I live, saith the Lord God; Surely, because thou hast defiled my sanctuary with all thy detestable things, and with all thine abominations, therefore will I also diminish thee; neither shall mine eye spare, neither will I have any pity. A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee; and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them." -- Eze 5:10-12​

Josephus explained the fulfillment of 16:21:

"The [catapult] engines, that all the [Roman] legions had ready prepared for them, were admirably contrived; . . . Now the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space." [Wars of the Jews, V.6.3] ​

.

Regarding Revelation 19, no one understands that chapter. Be suspicious of anyone who claims to understand it.

One passage, however, is important to understand because so many false prophecies and teachings have been based upon it. That part spans verses 11-15, and symbolically represents Christ and the armies which follow him. All you need to understand is that Christ and his armies are in heaven, and there is no mention of either of them being on the earth at any time. Also notice that in verse 15, the sword of the Lord comes out of his mouth.

Therefore, at best, we might be able to interpret those verses as Christ and his armies in heaven directing the events of battles on earth.
.



Satan was bound after the destruction of Jerusalem when many of his children and their synagogues were destroyed. Christ explained how the leadership of Jerusalem were children of Satan. And note these similarities between Babylon and Satan:

". . . by [Babylon the Great's] sorceries were all nations deceived." -- Rev 18:23-24​

" . . . [Satan] should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled. . . " -- Rev 20:3​

I believe Satan was released again to deceive the nations during the past century. Christianity was growing until then; and only recently has Satan consolidated his deceptive power to the point that what was once understood to be evil is now good, and vice versa.
.

Click to expand...

Just so I am sure of what you believe:

Do you believe that the real city of Jerusalem, as we see it on a map in Israel today will the the very real city where a new temple will be build, and where the man of sin will enter and declare he is God?

Do you believe the Beast of Rev. 13 will make this real city of Jerusalem his headquarters and where he will deceive the nations with his false miracles?

Do you believe then, since the nations will be deceived from this city of Jerusalem, the greatest deception every presented to man, that God would call this real, physical city the great "wh**e Babylon?"

Or is all this a myth?

LAMAD