Can Christians lose there salvation?

Pastor N.B. · Feb 17, 2003

Today at 06:26 AM eldermike said this in Post #280 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=658312#post658312)

No, It's just 2 seperate thoughts. Both results of Sin. Mans days on earth are numbered and a new way of being with God on earth.

********
Elder Mike: At the end of my post is a PROFESSED CHRISTIAN that seems to not be able to post a reply to a thread here. Has he LOST HIS SALVATION or might we say that he has only lost his *"Christian Forum" posting privalige?

Now on to your post..

:scratch:

, Wow! Pastor Mike, & we thought Paul was hard to understand! (SMILE!)

Well then pray tell, tell me again what you are saying?? Are you using two differant time frames, or are you saying that the verse is doing so??

I was always 'convicted' that the Word of God had the Chapter Headings, Cap's, Numbers, Periods, Coma's, Books by name, & even more than that, that were added by man, and these were not the Holy Spirits inspiration?
P/N/B

Note: If anyone wants to know more about the site you referred to, members can PM you.

eldermike · Feb 17, 2003

And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Not always Strive with man
Because
He is flesh
And
Flesh lives 120 years

Nothing to do with salvation.
It's the condition of man after sin entered man.

Aviyah · Feb 22, 2003

3rd December 2002 at 06:22 AM jayemcintyre said this in Post #1 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=486375#post486375)

I have had this discussion with a few people but to be honest I am still confused.

Can a Christian lose there salvation? For instance, say someone is a Christian for 20 years but then loses that love and belief in Jesus, would they still be saved? I think no, but what do you think?

Your sister in Christ

Jay

if they can loose their belief in Christ they were never saved to begin with ,,you cant loose your salvation,

though we can choose to turn from god

Ben johnson · Feb 22, 2003

if they can loose their belief in Christ they were never saved to begin with

This assertion is made by all three versions of "OSAS"...

you cant loose your salvation...

Scripture?

though we can choose to turn from God

What does this mean? Do you believe a person can be turned from God, but still be saved???

Can you please explain?

Disciple2003 · Feb 24, 2003

I am very new at this so please bear with me and forgive me if I repeat things that may have already been said.  I read much of this thread but not all of it and, of course, it has been an extremely difficult yet important topic over the years.  Here are just a few thoughts:

There have been many references to scriptures that speak of God's protection and desire to not leave His people (i.e. John 10:28, Romans 8:38,39, etc.).  Someone else (I am not sure who) commented on the fact that these verses speak to God's choice to remain with His people and His protection from outside forces.  He will not allow anyone or anything to separate Him from those He loves.  They do not eliminate the possibility of an individual choosing to leave God and separate himself.  To whomever it was that made this comment; thank you.  I fully concur.

Other verses to consider:  John 15:1-11.  Jesus is the vine and we are the branches.  Here Jesus speaks of those who abide in Him.  The idea of 'abide' is 'to remain'.  The command here is not 'come' but 'remain'.  This is to those who have already come to Him.  To abide (remain) in Him is to bear fruit.  He makes it clear, however, that some will not bear fruit and, therefore, will not remain in Him.  They will be cast into the fire.  Verse 10 says that we will abide (remain) in His love, IF we keep His commandments.  It is conditional. This is not about salvation by works.  When Paul tells us that we are saved by grace through faith and it is not a result of works, he is speaking of works of the law.  This is reiterated in Romans 3:28, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."  Obedience to Christ is a result of faith.  If we have faith, we will have works.  James makes this very clear.  We are told by Jesus Himself that our love for Him is shown in our obedience.

Romans chapters 9-11 deal with the rejection of Israel.  By chapter 11, Paul tells the Gentiles not to get high-minded thinking that they are doing better than Israel.  He reminds them that Israel was rejected (but not totally) due to their disbelief and disobedience.  He explains that the Gentiles are like a wild olive being grafted in among the natural branches and become a partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree.  Verses 19-21 read "You will say then, 'Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.'  Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith.  Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you."  This seems clear that we who have been grafted in should fear the possibility of falling away (or being broken off) if we fall into unbelief.

There are others but I do not want to take up too much space, especially being new at this.  I do not see any scripture that tells us that there is NO possibility of falling away.  In fact, it's just the opposite.  One of the problems with Calvinism is that it completely takes away human involvement and choice in the salvation process.  Everything in scripture says that we choose to receive or reject Jesus.  If we can choose to walk with Him, can we not still choose to turn from Him again?  We NEVER lose our ability to choose.  God did not create robots.  He created a free-will being who had the ability to choose to love God.  That is His desire.  That His creation will choose to love and obey Him.  If God did choose ahead of time who would be saved and who wouldn't, then that implies that God created certain human beings with the explicit intent of sending them to hell with them having absolutely no say in the matter.  That certainly does not sound like the God of love that the Bible speaks of.

I hope that this post fits in with the discussion.  I will look forward to all of your replies.  God bless you all.

 

Disciple2003

Ben johnson · Feb 25, 2003

Disciple2003---welcome to the boards!

...and a very excellent post!

I think you'll fit in just fine...

BTW, there are THREE facets of "OSAS"
(all 3 make the assertion quoted in post #284)
1. Carnal Christian---that salvation is RELATIONSHIP, separate from FELLOWSHIP with God; one can be "baby-milk-fed" forEVER, sinning willfully and continually, but still saved.
2. Predestined-Election---that God has decreed (from the start) who shall be saved and who shall perish---the SAVED are so irresistibly, the condemned are hopelessly reprobate. There is no personal responsibility---for SAVING FAITH is INSTALLED by God, perseverence and endurance likewise are enacted by God in the ELECT...
3. Eternal Security---that salvation IS universal (atonement is not limited as it is in Predestined-Election), BUT---once SAVED, either the HEART is forever changed (so that it is NEVER POSSIBLE to fall), or God interferes dynamically in our lives to prevent our falling (in extreme cases, the believer might even DIE rather than be allowed to fall)...

FOMWatts<>< · Feb 25, 2003

Today at 12:14 AM Ben johnson said this in Post #286 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=674463#post674463)

Disciple2003---welcome to the boards!

...and a very excellent post!

I think you'll fit in just fine...

BTW, there are THREE facets of "OSAS"
(all 3 make the assertion quoted in post #284)
1. Carnal Christian---that salvation is RELATIONSHIP, separate from FELLOWSHIP with God; one can be "baby-milk-fed" forEVER, sinning willfully and continually, but still saved.
2. Predestined-Election---that God has decreed (from the start) who shall be saved and who shall perish---the SAVED are so irresistibly, the condemned are hopelessly reprobate. There is no personal responsibility---for SAVING FAITH is INSTALLED by God, perseverence and endurance likewise are enacted by God in the ELECT...
3. Eternal Security---that salvation IS universal (atonement is not limited as it is in Predestined-Election), BUT---once SAVED, either the HEART is forever changed (so that it is NEVER POSSIBLE to fall), or God interferes dynamically in our lives to prevent our falling (in extreme cases, the believer might even DIE rather than be allowed to fall)...

I fall into the second category because that is what scripture backs up. Look at it from a different approach...God KNEW before the beginning, even the foundation of the earth who would CHOOSE HIM. There is a personal responsibility, but the drive behind it ialso given by God and through the faith that He instills in us...see any of the works of Paul, he talks sooo much about predestination, namely Ephesians, but it is so obvious, TO ME AT LEAST

, that God has planned out the way things are to go.

All this talk aside...I rejoice as I type here, because we are ALL saved here, and to be quite honest that is a thing to be joyful about. So all have a greta day and GOD BLESS!

Blessings, FOMWatts<><

eldermike · Feb 25, 2003

Just in case predestined election were to be misunderstod: My humble explanation follows:

Predestined election is a reality, (a result), not a choice made by God. God did not create people to condemn and predestined election doesn't say that He did.
God desires that all be saved (scripture supports this), but God knows that some will reject Him (scripture supports this), hence, the reality of predestination as an outcome of knowing all things. People get this concept tied in a knot. It's our limitations that cause confusion. It's like free will, which is a limitation placed upon man and another result of God's nature, not a gift from God. We must choose because we do not know the future, if we knew the future then our choices would be unnecessary. Here again since we can't see the future but are part of it (another reality), we must live it as it comes to us, in the present, by making choices. But as sure as I write this my choices, past present and future are/were known by God.

God's nature = outcome (results)
Man understanding the results of God's nature = confusion

Blessings

FOMWatts<>< · Feb 25, 2003

Very well put!!! AMEN!!!

FOMWatts<><

Ben johnson · Feb 25, 2003

I fall into the second category because that is what scripture backs up.

Which Scriptures?

Look at it from a different approach...God KNEW before the beginning, even the foundation of the earth who would CHOOSE HIM. There is a personal responsibility, but the drive behind it ialso given by God and through the faith that He instills in us...see any of the works of Paul, he talks sooo much about predestination, namely Ephesians, but it is so obvious, TO ME AT LEAST , that God has planned out the way things are to go.

I see a contradiction in this---it seems to me that there must either be "personal responsibility}, OR "God-instills-faith". How could it be both? If faith-to-salvation (there are different KINDS of faith, so faith-to-salvation is belief-in-Christ is receiving-Christ-as-Lord-and-Savior)---if faith-to-salvation is INSTILLED in certain ones God has CHOSEN, then there can be no personal responsibility. Responsible is defined as "being accountable as the CAUSE of something". Responsible and Justice are inseparable---we have prisons as the just consequence of responsible actions. Does that make sense? How could Heaven and Hell be eternal destinies, except as the just consequence of responsible actions? Yet "PREDESTINED-ELECTION" asserts that God instills saving-faith in only those God has CHOSEN.

So either we RECEIVE CHRIST, bearing the full responsibility of our actions, or Christ is INSTILLED IN US unilaterally by God and HE bears the responsibility for our salvation (and our endurance and perseverence). Do you see how responsibility must be on either one side or the other? Can't be both...

As far as how God PLANS stuff, it's useful to know which words are USED; "Boulema" is a DECREE---what WILL occur; while "Thelema" is a DESIRE---what God WANTS to happen. Nowhere in Scripture can I find the words that God has DECREED anyone's salvaton.

God did not create people to condemn and predestined election doesn't say that He did.

Actually facets of Calvinism say just this. A "fence-straddle" is attempted, by claiming "they earned it THEMSELVES by their evil-sinful-natures"---but the reality in that belief, is it's God's FAULT; for EVERYONE is evil/sinful, only God's forceful intervention (instilling saving-faith in the CHOSEN) saves, and conversely God's indifference to the rest consequences in their eternal condemnation. So the "fence-straddle" fails---the responsibility rests solely on GOD, people had no choice either way...

God desires that all be saved (scripture supports this)...

Excellent, Mike---we may be more in agreement than not. But contrast the idea that "God DESIRES all to be saved", with "Limited atonement"---which says "He SORTA calls all to salvation, but not-REALLY 'cause only those He EFFECTIVELY calls will be saved, and He calls the REST only insincerely." If God truly desires all to be saved, and if God instills saving-faith, then all MUST be saved; but the reality demonstrates that one of those assertions must be false:

1. Either God does NOT truly desire everyone be saved
2. Orrrr, God does NOT instill saving-faith.

Both cannot be true. Logic constrains at least one to be false.

It's like free will, which is a limitation placed upon man and another result of God's nature, not a gift from God. We must choose because we do not know the future, if we knew the future then our choices would be unnecessary. Here again since we can't see the future but are part of it (another reality), we must live it as it comes to us, in the present, by making choices. But as sure as I write this my choices, past present and future are/were known by God.

The question seems to be focused on "free will", doesn't it? You see, if God instills saving-faith (removing sinful-stone-hearts and installing faithful-flesh-hearts), then there is no free will. But if we do have responsibility, then saving-faith is NOT instilled---it "comes from a man's heart" (Rom10:10---or from a woman's heart with respect to our sisters-in-Christ).

If saving-faith comes from ourselves, it does not diminish God's sovereignty one smidgeon, nor does it devalue His magnificent gift-of-grace one iota! (How much IS a smigeon or an iota, anyway???) If salvation is a gift that is RECEIVED by us, then the gift is STILL "all-of-Him-and-none-of-us". Rom5:17 says it IS a gift that IS received. By choice? By free will? Or by Divine dictate? By Divine instillment? Gotta be one or the other...

But as sure as I write this my choices, past present and future are/were known by God.

Agreed. The question is, though God KNOWS the future, how much manipulation did He DO to FORM it?

All this talk aside...I rejoice as I type here, because we are ALL saved here, and to be quite honest that is a thing to be joyful about. So all have a great day and GOD BLESS!

Heh heh! Touche'! And very well said!

Yet the discussion does still matter---if not for participants in the discussions who clearly ARE ALL saved, then for the participants' futures---is it GOD who perseveres US? Or do we have the responsibility to "be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and election of us; as long as we practice these things we will not PTAIO-BECOME-WRETCHED; for in THIS way the EISODOS-GATES of Heaven will be abundantly provided"? (2Pet1)

eldermike · Feb 25, 2003

Ben,

Amen!!

We are saved!

I will hold on to my understanding of Calvin's strong words, that in fact call us to study God's desires against what we perceive as limitations of God, but are in fact are only perfect Truth. (which we will have to wait to comprehend)

We are not far apart. Our different understandings can lead us to judge improperly, we must be diligently against that. as I know you are and I try to be.

Blessings

Ben johnson · Feb 25, 2003

@ Mike...

Disciple2003 · Feb 25, 2003

Predestined election is a reality, (a result), not a choice made by God. God did not create people to condemn and predestined election doesn't say that He did. God desires that all be saved (scripture supports this), but God knows that some will reject Him (scripture supports this), hence, the reality of predestination as an outcome of knowing all things. People get this concept tied in a knot. It's our limitations that cause confusion. It's like free will, which is a limitation placed upon man and another result of God's nature, not a gift from God.

This is a very good statement Mike.  However, this is not the normal view for Calvinists.  Ben actually did a great job in describing the Calvinist viewpoint so I will not repeat what he said.  A common scripture used to defend the predestination doctrine is Romans 8:29,30.  However, these verses do not speak to predestination as understood by Calvinists even though the word is used in these verses.  The idea of predestination is that God has chosen those who He will save.  They are all who will confess His son as Lord and believe in Him.  God has chosen the way to salvation and offered it to all and has decided that ALL who come to Him through Christ Jesus will be partakers.  That being said, we must also understand that God, in His infinite wisdom, FOREKNEW who would make that choice.  The fact that God knows ahead of time who will decide in no way eliminates the responsibility of the individual to make the decision.

The real issue at hand in Calvinism is the sovereignty of God.  Calvin's understanding is this: If God is totally sovereign (and we know He is), then how could He allow any decisions to be made outside of His control?  His answer is He can't.  Therefore, God must be the ultimate and determinative cause of everything, including the so-called acts and decisions of men.  Ephesians 1:11 is often cited to support this: "also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will."  This may legitimately be interpreted to mean that whatever comes to pass happens the way God planned it.  If man has free will, that is the way God planned it.  Man's free acts are within the counsel of God.  Calvinists are concerned that asserting man's free will limits God when actually the doctrine of predestination and 'once-saved-always-saved' limits Him.  The outcome of their basic view of predestination would be that God could not possibly choose to create a free will being because then He would no longer be sovereign.  The truth of the matter is that God's freedom to decree whatever He pleases is proof of His absolute sovereignty!  If the decree includes the free will of man, or even a self-limitation for God Himself, God is still sovereign, because He is free to decree what He pleases.  How do I know that?  Because He is God!!!  He is free to determine man's will if He so chooses, but if He decrees to suspend his determinative power in order to give free will to men, it is because He sovereignly chooses to do so.  He is absolutely sovereign in EVERYTHING He does.  What an awesome God we serve!!!

 

eldermike · Feb 26, 2003

Disciple2003,

I think we agree on Theology and only differ in our understanding of how Calvin taught. The outcome is the same. Yes, God is sovereign.

Blessings

All4Christ · Mar 12, 2003

What about those who have been following Christ, and have tried to live a Christ-like life for decades, who suddenly have something happen to them, and then are filled with hate. Say they turn around and never do anything for God again? In your view are they still Christians, or were they never Christians, in spite of all the years they DID follow Christ? Just curious...

Forgive me if this already has been said, as I didn't read the entire thread. I've just never truly studied Calvinism, and I just know the basic concepts of predestination (our church never taught predestination). So, like I said earlier...I'm just curious.

nChrist · Mar 25, 2003

Man's righteousness is as filty rags before and after salvation. Man can't do anything to earn salvation and can't do anything to maintain salvation. The Grace of God is offered to man by the blood of Jesus as a gift. If man believes and accepts this gift by accepting Jesus Christ as their Saviour, the promise of God is given and the seal of the Holy Spirit is given as an ernest for inheritance as a child of God.

God is pure and never lies. God does not promise, give, and take away. Assurance in the heart of a growing Christian is a joy in absolute knowledge of salvation. Any doubt would not be on the part of God. Good works and love of God grow from the grateful heart of a believer. The Christian grows with strength and assurance with the study of God's Holy Word.

nChrist · Mar 25, 2003

25th February 2003 at 12:03 PM eldermike said this in Post #288

Just in case predestined election were to be misunderstod: My humble explanation follows:

I agree 100%. I would state this in simple terms and with much less eloquence. God knows eternity past and eternity future.

eldermike · Mar 25, 2003

God is pure and never lies. God does not promise, give, and take away. Assurance in the heart of a growing Christian is a joy in absolute knowledge of salvation. Any doubt would not be on the part of God. Good works and love of God grow from the grateful heart of a believer. The Christian grows with strength and assurance with the study of God's Holy Word.

Amen

eldermike · Mar 25, 2003

JN 17:1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

"Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.

God only does what brings Him Glory.

God created everything to bring Him Glory, but, because of sin we did not bring Him Glory.

Thus, The reason for the cross:

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

God was and is Glory even without the world and man.

God created all things in His Glory, to reveal His Glory.

Because of sin man could not Glorify God. (so)

God became a man, lived a perfect life, was killed without complaint by sinful man, thus completing the very reason for creating man, to bring Him Glory.

God has been Glorified in Christ and is glorified every time someone accepts Christ. God loved us enough to Glorify Himself. Read it! For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Son so that All who believe will not perish but live forever.

You can be glorified through Christ and only through Christ. Why? because Jesus was and is, and always will be the only perfect life, the only one that lived as we were intended to live. It's His Glory that is at stake, not your life.

Salvation is not a process, it's not about you, it's about God's Glory. You can't fail at salvation, your salvation brings Glory to God and in that, He will never fail.

You are saved Brothers and Sisters in Christ, rest in the Lord, meet with Him daily, your life will bring Him Glory. Amen

Andrew · Apr 8, 2003

What about those who have been following Christ, and have tried to live a Christ-like life for decades, who suddenly have something happen to them, and then are filled with hate. Say they turn around and never do anything for God again?

This is typical form of questioning that those who believe in OSNAS always like to use.

I'd wish they stop building doctrines on hypothetical examples of people that don't exist or whom they don't know all about (ie do you know the person's heart and what he believes till the time he breathes his last breath?).

What if.... what if.... what if....

Let's stick to clear-cut easy to entreat scriptures.

Can Christians lose there salvation?

I read this question again and it struck me:

God paid such a high price -- His own Son -- for our salvation, and He made it so simple for us to be saved -- just believe! and receive! -- only to have us turn the greatest miracle of God into something so flimsy and shaky -- something that it the end, can be lost just by what we do or dont do. Whoa! For all that 'trouble' God forgot that it cld all be lost just by man's actions?

Can Christians lose there salvation?

Can a Christian lose there salvation?

yes, if they lose their faith

no, never

depends on the situation

only if they commit the unforgiveable sin

unsure

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