Original Text of Acts 12:4

etZion

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Within the Messianic community, do uncircumcised Messianic gentiles observe Pesach?

The commandment for eating of the Pesach Lamb, requires that one be circumcised. However, no one today, whether in Israel or outside of the Land, can keep this commandment. Thus, an uncircumcised person can participate in a traditional Seder, just as the circumcised, no commandment is being violated. One day, when the commandment can be kept and the Temple is restored, then no uncircumcised person may eat of the Pesach Lamb, however they could still participate in the feast, without partaking in the eating of the Pesach Lamb.
 
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etZion

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I think because there is no prohibition for eating bread and drinking wine. Which elements are the passover of the Lord's supper. Which eating is by circumcision of the heart.

What is a "Passover of the Lord's Supper"?

Are you referring to when Yeshua kept the Passover?
 
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Yoseft

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Educate me to all.

I am circumcised and attend a Messianic Jewish Congregation.

I sow into it financially. (Now I know how Shaul felt in his letters) when sharing
his qualifications. So embarrassed.

Am I of Israel? Having a Jewish Grandmother on my father's side?

Perhaps not.... that is not the please educate me probe.

Many a Pesach, quietly with my wife at home, we have lamb.

I do it in remembrance of Him / Yeshua. I pray and Thank the Father
and try my best at my home to reflect and remember Exodus, and His Calling
Out of the Jewish People.

No I do not have a lamb farm to take the 1st one without blemish.

I buy store bought leg of lamb, and roast it, and silently, between Him and me
honor Exodus 12 the best I can, giving Glory to Him for His Son, that took my sin.

Why do I say silently. I have never shared this before.

I attend the Congregational Seder on Pesach, but this is a home one-on-one
observance.

I have not fallen down dead yet.

What think all of you?

Yosef
 
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HannibalFlavius

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Educate me to all.

I am circumcised and attend a Messianic Jewish Congregation.

I sow into it financially. (Now I know how Shaul felt in his letters) when sharing
his qualifications. So embarrassed.

Am I of Israel? Having a Jewish Grandmother on my father's side?

Perhaps not.... that is not the please educate me probe.

Many a Pesach, quietly with my wife at home, we have lamb.

I do it in remembrance of Him / Yeshua. I pray and Thank the Father
and try my best at my home to reflect and remember Exodus, and His Calling
Out of the Jewish People.

No I do not have a lamb farm to take the 1st one without blemish.

I buy store bought leg of lamb, and roast it, and silently, between Him and me
honor Exodus 12 the best I can, giving Glory to Him for His Son, that took my sin.

Why do I say silently. I have never shared this before.

I attend the Congregational Seder on Pesach, but this is a home one-on-one
observance.

I have not fallen down dead yet.

What think all of you?

Yosef


I wouldn't understand anyone telling you that you were not Jewish{Of course I know that you are a true Jew in my eyes, no matter what}}


But I think of Joseph, and the millions of Joseph that are supposedly found at some point.



What do Jews and others say about the descendants of Joseph?


They say that although the kingdom of Ephraim was exiled into the nations 2700 years ago where they lost their identity and became gentiles, that God still knows who they are.

I mean, my view of who the sons of Joseph are is much different than most people's views, but the most popular view is that God knows who those people are, even after generation after generation has married gentiles after gentile for 2700 years.


If God still knows who those people are, then you having a Jewish grandmother is a lot closer.

But like I said, I don't believe the popular views about the sons of Joseph.


In fact, I make the claim that I am of Joseph, but not many would agree with what I believe on the subject.

I believe that Jesus and John the Baptist stood and called the lost sheep of the house of Israel{Ephraim} and he redeemed these once Israelites back into Israel through marriage as a Jew would marry a gentile and bring that person into Israel, and so we have the saying,'' You have increased the nation''

That those lost gentiles of Ephraim saw a great light.


I also consider what Paul says about this lost kingdom in Romans, but again, not many agree with me.


The 7000 reserved isn't about Judah, it was 7000 reserved in Israel under Ahab.


And that promise spoken about the return and blessing of Ephraim in Hosea,'' Not my people become my people'' is not speaking about Jews, but of Ephraim.

They threw off the Torah, called it a strange thing.

They created their own worship system and married into gentiles long before they were exiled for doing so.

They became,'' not his people.''

But they have a promise once they became,'' not his people.''

That God would bring them back in and say,'' these are now the sons of the living God.''


So it is my belief that a door was opened in Ephraim for gentiles of Ephraim to come and be redeemed through a marriage to a Jew{Jesus}, and when I see no Ephraim in the list of Revelation, it makes perfect sense, because that doorway would be closed.
 
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Torah Lishmah

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From my experience yes. Though it's not always the case. More orthodox Messianic synagogues still require one to be a Jew to participate and make aliyah, but that is definitly not the norm. Most Messianic congregations, especially one law, treat Jews and non-Jews as one in the congregation.

Imo some may think that they do but much more likely they do not. The true calendar is so very difficult to see for the forest through the trees when the heart is not yet circumcised, (but the vail is done away in Messiah). Happy Equinox by the way, (for those who count it that way, Shabbat Shabbaton, [Hebrew Shabbaton]). :D

The commandment for eating of the Pesach Lamb, requires that one be circumcised. However, no one today, whether in Israel or outside of the Land, can keep this commandment. Thus, an uncircumcised person can participate in a traditional Seder, just as the circumcised, no commandment is being violated. One day, when the commandment can be kept and the Temple is restored, then no uncircumcised person may eat of the Pesach Lamb, however they could still participate in the feast, without partaking in the eating of the Pesach Lamb.

Because Messiah is our Pesach lamb (1 Cor 5:7) who has brought the gentiles near to us, and made them one with us.
Jews must also be circumcised to partake, so being "one" with Israel is no excuse for the uncircumcised to partake of Pesach. Is this the prevailing theology in the Messianic community concerning gentiles partaking of Pesach? As far as I can tell, it is clearly a violation of Torah Law.

There is much diversity in these answers, as if it is just something that is done, without much thought to it. Thank you everyone for answering my questions.
 
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Lulav

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Easter was around centuries before Jesus, I think Herod celebrated Easter, and that would just lend a little more to him being a Samaritan.


Israel celebrated Easter before Jesus and they got in trouble for doing so.


The Christian Easter or Roman Easter had nothing to do with Passover although they connect the two.

But just like Constantine said, they were all doing Easter INSTEAD of Passover because they outlawed the Passover and chose Easter instead.


The church outlawing Passover and accepting Easter in its stead is very telling.


Hey HB, Herod wasn't a Samaritan, he was an Idumaean, basically he was of Esau and this is why he was so evil and bloodthirsty. From Esau came Amelek and from Amelek came Haman, and it continued down from there. Just because Haman and his sons were hung instead of the Jews doesn't mean they had no sons of their own before dying. I believe Herod was most likely from Ameleks line whom G-d said he would war against in every Generation. It still goes on today. But he doesn't get to win!
 
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Lulav

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Within the Messianic community, do uncircumcised Messianic gentiles observe Pesach?
Yes, in a Messianic manner. Also since there is no Temple now there is no slaughter of the Pesakh Korban so I don't think the commandment can be kept, one way or the other.
 
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etZion

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Jews must also be circumcised to partake, so being "one" with Israel is no excuse for the uncircumcised to partake of Pesach. Is this the prevailing theology in the Messianic community concerning gentiles partaking of Pesach? As far as I can tell, it is clearly a violation of Torah Law.

There is much diversity in these answers, as if it is just something that is done, without much thought to it. Thank you everyone for answering my questions.

What you are failing to understand, is that the commandment cannot be kept today, thus no one is eating the Passover, whether circumcised or uncircumcised. Now, what part of this do you not understand?
 
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etZion

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Believers in Jesus are indeed both circumcised and eating the passover given them.

Annier, no offense, but you are not a Messianic, and we do not share the same beliefs..., also take note that I was not writing to you, so I am not interested in your commentary and I do not agree... ;)
 
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Torah Lishmah

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Yes, in a Messianic manner. Also since there is no Temple now there is no slaughter of the Pesakh Korban so I don't think the commandment can be kept, one way or the other.
Hi Lulav. What is the Messianic manner of observing Pesach?
 
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annier

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Annier, no offense, but you are not a Messianic, and we do not share the same beliefs..., also take note that I was not writing to you, so I am not interested in your commentary and I do not agree... ;)
I identify with Messianic Judaism as a Noachide. I understand you all do not always agree with everything, that's ok, no problem here.
 
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Torah Lishmah

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What you are failing to understand, is that the commandment cannot be kept today, thus no one is eating the Passover, whether circumcised or uncircumcised. Now, what part of this do you not understand?
So anyone who disagrees with you is failing to understand Torah, and halakha? Why are you being so sarcastic with me? I've said nothing to you to deserve that.

I also do not understand your logic here. So your saying that because the Jewish people supposedly cannot keep Pesach perfectly, according to your judgment, then that makes it acceptable for uncircumcised gentiles to break Torah Law, and observe Pesach? I find that reasoning seriously flawed, to say the least. Who is really misunderstanding halakha here?

Beside all that, Pesach commemorates the exodus of the Jewish people from Mitzrayim, not gentiles.
 
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daq

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I think because there is no prohibition for eating bread and drinking wine. Which elements are the passover of the Lord's supper. Which eating is by circumcision of the heart.

:thumbsup: Excellent answer! (Thou shalt not murder-death-kill). :)
 
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Torah Lishmah

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I think because there is no prohibition for eating bread and drinking wine. Which elements are the passover of the Lord's supper. Which eating is by circumcision of the heart.
That's interesting. I have a couple questions for you.

1. Is the L-rd's supper synonymous with Pesach?
2. Which one is Paul talking about in 1Corinthians 11:17-34?
3. Where does it say that a circumcised heart is the requirement for observing Pesach, or the L-rd's supper, and not physical circumcision?
4. How does one know if his or her heart is circumcised?
 
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annier

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That's interesting. I have a couple questions for you.

1. Is the L-rd's supper synonymous with Pesach?
IMO, no, not the mosaic Passover. The Mosaic passover was for the Children. The Lord's supper is an ekklesiastical Liturgical event. Similar to a holy convocation to assmble at the temple.
2. Which one is Paul talking about in 1Corinthians 11:17-34?
I believe Paul is speaking of the Lord's supper, of partaking of the bread and wine. The situation seems to have been, that some had already partaken of the passover lamb at home, and had their 4 cups of wine and were showing up "tipsy". Others had come expecting to actually eat a larger meal.
3. Where does it say that a circumcised heart is the requirement for observing Pesach, or the L-rd's supper, and not physical circumcision?
A circumcised heart is spoken of all over in the new testament teachings.
Because Physical circumcision is not necessary to partake of bread of and wine. It is not necessary for faith in Christ, or fellowship in Christ.
4. How does one know if his or her heart is circumcised?
Through faith, which God gives. It is a work of God.

I think the most important aspect of the passover feast is to know, it is feast which belongs to the Abrahamic promises. A memorial to God's promises made to Abraham being fulfilled. I think that reality gets lost from view. Therefore a feast in both the old and new covenants.
 
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daq

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Circumcision of the heart generally takes a lioness, a leopardess, and a she-bear robbed of her cubs, (because the children of the kingdom generally have chest-plate cauls of iron). Revelation 13 is the companion passage to Hoshea 13, (and Daniel 7). Also, since Moshe also wrote Genesis, I wonder if he truly meant physical circumcision at all in light of Devarim 10:16 and 30:6. :confused:
 
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Torah Lishmah

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IMO, no, not the mosaic Passover. The Mosaic passover was for the Children. The Lord's supper is an ekklesiastical Liturgical event. Similar to a holy convocation to assmble at the temple.

I believe Paul is speaking of the Lord's supper, of partaking of the bread and wine. The situation seems to have been, that some had already partaken of the passover lamb at home, and had their 4 cups of wine and were showing up "tipsy". Others had come expecting to actually eat a larger meal.

A circumcised heart is spoken of all over in the new testament teachings.
Because Physical circumcision is not necessary to partake of bread of and wine. It is not necessary for faith in Christ, or fellowship in Christ.

Through faith, which God gives. It is a work of God.

I think the most important aspect of the passover feast is to know, it is feast which belongs to the Abrahamic promises. A memorial to God's promises made to Abraham being fulfilled. I think that reality gets lost from view. Therefore a feast in both the old and new covenants.
Thank you, Annier.
 
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