Mormon/Mason Rituals

drstevej said:

They wear THESE in Heaven?

Really? Or you grasping for a justification and can't find better?

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I find your post offensive and disrespectful of our practices so I refuse to answer you who claim to be a chaplain.

southcountry said:

The morning stars are the spirits commanded by the sons of God who are in charge of the luminaries.

Job 38:4

Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Isaiah 48:13
13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.


Ezekiel 1:12
And they went every one straight forward: whither the spirit was to go, they went; and they turned not when they went. 13 As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning. 14 And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning.15 Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with his four faces.

Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. 7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

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These morning stars are the sons of God. Funny how you omit a scripture on point:
Revelation 2:28
And I will give him the morning star.

RevelationTestament said:

These morning stars are the sons of God. Funny how you omit a scripture on point:
Revelation 2:28
And I will give him the morning star.

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Funny how I omit scripture? You asked what the morning stars were. Did I not answer your question? I can add more scripture if you like.

Why the accusation?

I have said before on this forum that I believe the next creation to have 12 foundations, and that our job will be caretakers of it. The "morning stars" will be the eyes in the wheels of of the cheribum which have direct links to all matter contained in this universe.

But to follow this through runs into the fact that the bible describes all the elements being destroyed, and from past discussion with you, I remember you werent to fond of that idea. So instead of rehashing that again, I thought instead I wouldnt be forceful but just share my answer and leave it at that.

Cant even have discussion anymore without somebody going on the defensive. Whats wrong with you people?

drstevej said:

You said it reflects Revelation. You invited the comparison. Revelation does not mention any secrecy re the robes. You can only be offended if your parallel to Revelation was exaggeration.

I will delete the pictures out of deference to the LDS invented secrets.

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I apprectiate that. It's not that it is "secret." It is holy and shouldn't be splashed all over the web.

southcountry said:

Funny how I omit scripture? You asked what the morning stars were. Did I not answer your question? I can add more scripture if you like.

Why the accusation?

I have said before on this forum that I believe the next creation to have 12 foundations, and that our job will be caretakers of it. The "morning stars" will be the eyes in the wheels of of the cheribum which have direct links to all matter contained in this universe.

But to follow this through runs into the fact that the bible describes all the elements being destroyed, and from past discussion with you, I remember you werent to fond of that idea. So instead of rehashing that again, I thought instead I wouldnt be forceful but just share my answer and leave it at that.

Cant even have discussion anymore without somebody going on the defensive. Whats wrong with you people?

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I was just trying to make a point - sorry if I offended.
I am not really accusing you of anything - maybe you just haven't considered the verse from Revelation.

BTW I disagree with your other interpretations. Cherubim are two people who guard the way to the tree of life with the strong sword of the Lord.

drstevej said:

Why did you quote revelation and splash that on the web?

More double standard

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Oh brother.
I quoted you. Since you deleted it, so did I.
I didn't realize quotes from Revelation shouldn't be splashed all over the web - my bad.

RevelationTestament said:

I was just trying to make a point - sorry if I offended.
I am not really accusing you of anything - maybe you just haven't considered the verse from Revelation.

BTW I disagree with your other interpretations. Cherubim are two people who guard the way to the tree of life with the strong sword of the Lord.

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Well, Im sure you have read Ezekiel 1 and know that representation does not stop there, indeed what is before God and the throne is seen again by John in Revelation. I tend to think in terms of the "big picture" and that is why I see the universe as a whole, ( which even agrees with science) and it is so important, so grand, that it is mentioned and explained throughout the bible, and that is why those stars were shouting for joy because it is a magnificent creation.

Cheribum do more than guard, they obey. They are part of the construct of this reality, even time itself would not exist were it not for their power to hold apart this canvass of space. This is why the beasts are described as being before Gods throne "day and night" giving praise.


Revelation 4:6
And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Revelation 4: 8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.


You will also notice they "run as lightening"

Ezekiel 1:14 And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning.15 Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with his four faces.

They also are accountable :

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. 7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.


Why are they presenting themselves? Do they have a job to do? What is it? And what has Satan been up to?



I dont expect anyone to try and shoe horn someone elses idea into the bible. I figure most people are capable of thinking for themselves but there is nothing wrong with injecting important and pertinent facts to think about along the way.

But if someone asks me to get specific, I will do my best to describe my thoughts.

southcountry said:

Well, Im sure you have read Ezekiel 1 and know that representation does not stop there, indeed what is before God and the throne is seen again by John in Revelation. I tend to think in terms of the "big picture" and that is why I see the universe as a whole, ( which even agrees with science) and it is so important, so grand, that it is mentioned and explained throughout the bible, and that is why those stars were shouting for joy because it is a magnificent creation.

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The scripture says they sang together like this:

Revelation 14:3
And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

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Cheribum do more than guard, they obey.

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If any should receive the fullness of Christ, they must obtain it the same way He did - by obeying every commandment of the Father.

They are part of the construct of this reality, even time itself would not exist were it not for their power to hold apart this canvass of space. This is why the beasts are described as being before Gods throne "day and night" giving praise.

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I don't see any connect between point A and B. I don't believe Genesis describes the creation of the universe but simply the creation of this earth and sky (heavens).
Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Revelation 4:6
And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Revelation 4: 8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

You will also notice they "run as lightening"

Ezekiel 1:14 And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning.15 Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with his four faces.

They also are accountable :

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. 7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Why are they presenting themselves? Do they have a job to do? What is it? And what has Satan been up to?

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Of course they have a job to do. Anyone who would follow Christ takes part in His work of salvation. Satan is merely doing what he has done in other worlds and since he rejected the plan of God as a morning star or son of the morning and fell from the grace of God.

I dont expect anyone to try and shoe horn someone elses idea into the bible. I figure most people are capable of thinking for themselves but there is nothing wrong with injecting important and pertinent facts to think about along the way.

But if someone asks me to get specific, I will do my best to describe my thoughts.

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I enjoy conversing with you although I do not share your cosmic vision. You do hold many insights into the gospel and share a wonderment of the beauty of God's word, and a desire to understand - which seems rare these days.
Peace to you

Do Mormons actually believe that what is done in the Endowment was done anciently?

NYCGuy said:

Do Mormons actually believe that what is done in the Endowment was done anciently?

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NO

RevelationTestament said:

NO

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Ok, so it's not a "restored" ordinance, thank you.

RevelationTestament said:

I apprectiate that. It's not that it is "secret." It is holy and shouldn't be splashed all over the web.

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How is it holy when it was stolen from Freemasonry?

RevelationTestament said:

I apprectiate that. It's not that it is "secret." It is holy and shouldn't be splashed all over the web.

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Nothing is secret since the Internet - you know that, don't you? Then entire temple ceremony - in each of its several versions and "updates" - is there for the world to see, as are pictures of the garments in all of their changes through the years. Many years ago I even saw a couple modeling them on some horrid television program, and it made me livid. When the Dallas temple opened, there were people out on the street, wearing the full temple clothing for television cameras. That's pretty low.

Moodshadow said:

Nothing is secret since the Internet - you know that, don't you? Then entire temple ceremony - in each of its several versions and "updates" - is there for the world to see, as are pictures of the garments in all of their changes through the years. Many years ago I even saw a couple modeling them on some horrid television program, and it made me livid. When the Dallas temple opened, there were people out on the street, wearing the full temple clothing for television cameras. That's pretty low.

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I'm glad you agree Moodshadow. I try not to make fun of the religious beliefs and practices of other sects. Salvation is serious stuff, and I don't believe in poking fun at the religious practices of other followers of Christ no matter how "off" or strange I may believe them to be. That doesn't mean I don't try to reveal how I believe they are wrong or contrary to scripture, but that is a very different thing.

Those wearing our garments so inappropriately are saying something about what type of "Christians" they are. I have heard so called "street preachers" out at the entrances to the temple screaming about private body parts and all kinds of rude nonsense. I can't even believe they picture themselves as followers of Christ. I highly doubt anything like this occurs at synagogues, Catholic sanctuaries or Protestant churches on a regular basis - I have never witnessed anything like it anywhere else. These people debase themselves and crucify afresh the one whom they claim to serve.