What sin leads unto death? Can we pray for others to be forgiven?

Kylissa said:

In 1 John 5 we are told of some situations where we should pray for someone in sin, but that we are not to pray for sin leading unto death.

16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.

V. 16 seems to say that we can pray for the sins of others. Do you think others can be forgiven based on OUR prayers? If not, what does this mean?

And what is the sin leading to death?

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http://www.amazon.com/The-Orthodox-...91458683&sr=8-2&keywords=orthodox+study+bible

From The Orthodox Study Bible: 1 John 5:16

Sin leading to death is willful, continual disbelief in the grace of The Holy Spirit toward us.

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God be gracious to me a sinner.

Kylissa said:

In 1 John 5 we are told of some situations where we should pray for someone in sin, but that we are not to pray for sin leading unto death.

16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.

V. 16 seems to say that we can pray for the sins of others. Do you think others can be forgiven based on OUR prayers? If not, what does this mean?

And what is the sin leading to death?

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Not accepting God's free gift.

Kylissa said:

More interesting points.

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Another thought is that our intercessory prayers have the capacity to "open cracks" in which
God chooses to intervene. Remember Daniel's prayer in Daniel 9? I don't know why He chooses to act in this way, but obviously, God has His reasons.

Can our prayers save someone? When you realize that salvation is a process and not an event, the question becomes rather irrelevant. No, of course not. However, our prayers create opportunity for people to choose to let God work in them.

Kylissa said:

In 1 John 5 we are told of some situations where we should pray for someone in sin, but that we are not to pray for sin leading unto death.

16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.

V. 16 seems to say that we can pray for the sins of others. Do you think others can be forgiven based on OUR prayers? If not, what does this mean?

And what is the sin leading to death?

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A sin leading to death is a deliberate sin committed by a person who has been given the knowledge of the truth.


(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware whom it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

A person who is a Spiritual Christian and is a home of God’s has told God that they love him.

When a Spiritual Christian deliberately commits a sin he or she is telling the Holy Spirit that no, they love Satan/sin.

Such a person lied to the Holy Spirit. That is a sin leading to death.

(Acts 5:1-11) The Fraud of Ananias and Sapphira

Kylissa said:

That's another really good point - I guess Moses and Daniel could be seen in the same way, as prophets.

Interceding for the nation (or a people) usually involves asking forgiveness. I still have not looked up the Daniel prayer.

It seems there is a good bit of Scriptural support for the idea of praying for forgiveness for others. I wouldn't have extended to be something believers could do themselves for other believers, but I can't escape the fact that this passage seems to be saying exactly that.

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Even if we pray for forgiveness for others, it really is a prayer about the others coming to repentance and God then of course forgiving them.
I don't think we can pray for forgiveness for others and God then forgives them because we prayed for it, and the person gets forgiveness without having repented.
(If that's confusing, what I'm saying is this:
"...forgive John his sins" = "may John come to repentance")

Kylissa said:

Hmmmm ..... if that were the case, this passage doesn't seem to make sense?

It says we are to pray for a brother (a fellow believer) ... who commits a sin not leading to death.

If ANY sin they commit is one leading to death, and we are not to pray for sins that lead to death, then why are we told to pray at all?

Who then do we pray for?

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You pray for the infants in Christ that have not yet become spiritual.

(1 Corinthians 3:1-3) “Brothers, I myself was unable to speak to you as people of the Spirit; I treated you as sensual men, still infants in Christ. What I fed you with was milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it; and indeed, you are still not ready for it since you are still unspiritual. Isn’t that obvious from all the jealousy and wrangling that there is among you, from the way that you go on behaving like ordinary people?”

Sorry Kylissa, I must have read a question into your post and then commented on it.
Didn't mean to repeat what you had just said yourself.

Kylissa said:

Good point. I guess I am familiar with intercessory prayer - it was just honestly a foreign thought to me that we could ask forgiveness for another.

It is taught in Scripture that we must confess our own sins, and God will forgive us.

So that didn't seem to follow. I'm still not entirely sure if God will forgive (though it does seem to tell us to ask) or if it might not be how you mention salvation.

I don't think we can actually "save" someone with our prayers, but of course we pray for those who do not know Him to come to be saved. And often they do.

I'm not sure of the "mechanics" of intercession, but certainly we can pray for one another, and are told to.

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The dynamic of us having to ask for forgiveness ourselves and yet the Lord working thru us as we pray for forgiveness for others.....it's a very complicated matter.

There is a lot that can be missed when seeing the dynamic of individual responsibility in asking for forgiveness and yet seeing how intercession from others can make a difference depending on the circumstance. God recognizes the faith of individuals, but deals with the children of Israel as a unit. So when Israel was cursed by being defeated and captured by the enemies, it is not just unfaithful children of Israel who are removed from the land but all of Israel, faithful and unfaithful alike. Daniel was faithful, but was a member of the people who were scattered from the land. Indeed - as that's a theme within scripture when it comes to noting how even the righteous, though they may be righteous, can end up suffering because of the wrongs done by the same people. The people of Israel experienced this with David when it came to the Counting of the Census /God punishing all of Israel in 2 Samuel 24 /1 Chronicles 21 - and earlier than that, there was the example of the Famine in 2 Samuel 21 when a curse came on the entire land because of an Oath made in Joshua 9 which Saul had broken earlier. The same thing was also seen in Joshua 7:1 with Achan's sin which caused the entire camp to suffer massive defeat - and it is consistent throughout the entire Word of God.

That's not surprising, seeing that the context of Scripture was in Eastern Culture - and just like today, Eastern cultures are a Collective culture of Honor and Shame (more shared here, here, and here). If one experiences honor or shame, it flows down into the Household of their entire family/legacy - and it is not as individualistic as the West.

This is behind the reasons why others in the OT often gave collective prayers even though they were righteous themselves. Daniel is an excellent example of this concept - as in Daniel 9:1 he is giving a prayer of Repentance for the entire nation - speaking as if he himself did not keep the Covenant....even though as an eunuch/exile in Babylon did AMAZING in the Empire and the Lord continually blessed His work to the point where he consistently advanced and was highly revered for his walk with the Lord. And His development in Babylon was something that the Lord used to develop Him further than ever before. It is a means of intercession whereby he identifies with the nation and stands in the gap - very much akin to what Christ did in choosing to be baptized/live life as a man (as shared before in #76 / #503 ). Be it with Daniel 9 or Ezra in Ezra 9-10 or Nehemiah 8-9 and Moses in Exodus 32-33 & Numbers 14, etc) did when it came to identifying with the sins of their nations even though they themselves never sinned, corporate identity is a big deal.

• For the Sins of the Nation
• Biblical-Foundation-for-Identificational-Repentance

Nehemiah understood that Israel had been taken into captivity because of their sins. He prayed to God and said:
Due to his intercession, Nehemiah received favor with the king and was sent back to rebuild Jerusalem as governor. After Jerusalem's walls were repaired and gates built, Nehemiah and Ezra, who had also been confessing Israel's sins (Ezra 9:5-15), both witnessed God's Spirit bringing conviction and repentance to the people following the public reading of God's word in chapters 8 and 9. God honored their obedience with a spiritual revival.

This did not always happen like that. And there are, of course, times where the Lord made clear He honored/valued the individual to the point of preserving them - but that did not equate to them escaping feeling the consequences of their forebearers...much like someone who chose not to do drugs/was righteous even though their mother or father was addicted to cocaine and ended up bringing the household into dire poverty - the consequences will still be felt by the children. Those sharing in the sins of the parents have no room to say "But it wasn't my fault" - just as it was in Ezekiel 18:8 (during the exile) when the Children of Israel were blaming their parents for their situation/using God's word as a means of saying He punished them for the sins of their father (as in Exodus 20:4-6 /Exodus 34:6-8 /Numbers 14:17-19 /Deuteronomy 5:8-10 - and the Lord had to correct that by saying only those who choose sin shall die.

King Jeroboam experienced that in the life of his son - for after Judgement was declared on him for his apostasy/taking all of Israel into the fast track with it, the Lord told him that the only one in His entire household to be spared was his sick son - for the Lord only found good in that boy while all others in the home were corrupt ( 1 Kings 14:12-14/ )

Others such as Josiah are a good case study on this - as the Lord had been provoked for generations by Israel - and it was too the point of no return as far as He was concerned when it came to Judgement. His grand-father, Manesseh, pushed things over the cliff (so to speak) in 2 Chronicles 33 - yet he repented and it moved the Lord to the point of choosing to spare him even after he was taken prisoner. And yet none of his actions to change the damage he allowed were enough to change things. Josiah went fully after the Lord ( 2 Kings 23:24-26 ) - and did much in the way of reform. Nonetheless, it was not going to change God's mind on how to address the nation:
In the words of another "It is difficult for Americans to understand our corporate accountability before God, because we are culturally very independent and individualistic people. In the scriptures we witness the sin of an individual affecting future generations in a family (2 Ki 5:26-27) and also affecting a nation (Jos 22:20). In many respects, we are our brother's keeper. (Gen 4:9) God considers us accountable for how we feel about others, and how we treat and relate to them. Our sins affect others and their sins affect us."

Kylissa said:

Good point. I guess I am familiar with intercessory prayer - it was just honestly a foreign thought to me that we could ask forgiveness for another.

It is taught in Scripture that we must confess our own sins, and God will forgive us.

So that didn't seem to follow. I'm still not entirely sure if God will forgive (though it does seem to tell us to ask) or if it might not be how you mention salvation.
t.

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Whilst in Germany , one family went to a Lutheran Church ...anEnglish speaking Church and this is what appeared (verbatim) on the Order sheet and which the minister declared verbally:

Almight God in his mercy has given his Son to die for you and for his sake forgives you all your sins. As a called and ordained servant of the Word I therefore forgive you all your sins in the name of the Father and of the +Son (sic) and of the Holy Spirit.

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The man took issue with that - but when I saw it, I wondered why.


What was stated is based on the Lutheran doctrine of the Office of the Keys. The position states that Jesus gave His Church the authority to proclaim His forgiveness to those who repent of their sins. The minister him (or her) self is not the active agent for the absolution, God is, through the Gospel.

The doctrine is based on the verses:
Luther explained it this way...From the later edition of the Small Catechism:
Additionally, as said in The Smalcald Articles
According to Luther, when the Church preaches forgiveness of sins in the Gospel, it is exercising this office. Because the Gospel is a firm promise, ministers ordained to publically preach the Gospel are also given the authority to proclaim its power- forgiveness of sins. The background of Luther's elucidation of this doctrine is that prior to the Reformation many Church officials were using this office of the keys to make or break church rules and excommunicate people based on beliefs, practices or politics outside of the Gospel. But Luther believed that the power of the keys was a Gospel based authority, not a church based authority. For the keys were entrusted to the church for the benefit of the repentant sinner, to declare what God has done for them through the Gospel. They were not, Luther argued, given for any purpose outside of the Gospel.

As it turns out, Christians of all backgrounds instinctively practice the Office of the Keys in their own manner, often without knowing the theology. For example, when a Christian helps a person pray to God for the forgiveness of their sins, they always inform the person that God forgives them through the Gospel.

In many places...extending forgiveness verbally is done in a way that's similar to a branch coming from a tree. The branch can only live/show fruit because of the root from which its connected---and likewise, because the Lord was the first to forgive us, we now have the freedom to forgive others...and are called to do so ( Luke 6:36-38 ). Other texts coming to mind would be ones such as 2 Corinthians 2:1-8 where Paul noted the man who sinned greatly...and whom he stated "I have forgiven in the sight of Christ" when telling the Corinthians to forgive as well....for he often noted how he had the right/power to pass judgement ( 1 Corinthians 5:2-4 , 1 Timothy 1:19-20, etc) just as the other apostles did.

John 20:21-23
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Prior to that, there's also what the Lord told His own people when it came to the imperative to forgive...

Originally Posted by Kylissa

Good point. I guess I am familiar with intercessory prayer - it was just honestly a foreign thought to me that we could ask forgiveness for another.

It is taught in Scripture that we must confess our own sins, and God will forgive us.

So that didn't seem to follow. I'm still not entirely sure if God will forgive (though it does seem to tell us to ask) or if it might not be how you mention salvation.
​

Gxg (G²);64968771 said:

In many places...extending forgiveness verbally is done in a way that's similar to a branch coming from a tree. The branch can only live/show fruit because of the root from which its connected---and likewise, because the Lord was the first to forgive us, we now have the freedom to forgive others...and are called to do so ( Luke 6:36-38 ). Other texts coming to mind would be ones such as 2 Corinthians 2:1-8 where Paul noted the man who sinned greatly...and whom he stated "I have forgiven in the sight of Christ" when telling the Corinthians to forgive as well....for he often noted how he had the right/power to pass judgement ( 1 Corinthians 5:2-4 , 1 Timothy 1:19-20, etc) just as the other apostles did.

John 20:21-23
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​

N
21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
​

Prior to that, there's also what the Lord told His own people when it came to the imperative to forgive...

Matthew 6:15

9 “This, then, is how you should pray:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,[a]
but deliver us from the evil one.’

14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you

But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Matthew 6:14-16
​

Luke 6:27-35
Love for Enemies
​

27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.
32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
​

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Continued from previously....

As it concerns a NT perspective, others may feel that Jesus and Paul spoke only about forgiving someone who had sinned against us - something they see as a totally different concept since they feel it is not a blanket 'forgiveness' pronounced over a whole congregation, whether believers or not, at one shot.

However, there are limitations with how far things can go. Scripture makes clear others are to seek the Lord for themselves/ask His forgiveness rather than relying soley upon one person. And yet Jesus and Paul did not merely speak about forgiving those who sin against us...be it believers or not. Jesus told His OWN apostles that if they didn't forgive anyone of their sins, Christ would honor that/not forgive them as well.
<B>

John 20:21-23
​

For a good study on the issue, one can investigate the Hebrew Heritage society article they did here. But the power of binding and loosing, which means forbidding and allowing, was granted to Peter (Mt 16:19) and to the Christian community (Mt 18:18; Jn 20:23). It clearly implies the possession of the power to forgive sins. In the case of Peter's power it was exercised when he used the keys of the kingdom of heaven (Mt 16:19). This consisted in the proclamation of the gospel and especially of the conditions upon which men might enter into relationship with God (Acts 2:38; 10:34 ff). It was not limited to Peter only, but was shared by the other apostles (Mt 16:19; Matthew 18:18).

In Josephus (Wars of the Jews 1:5:2) he writes: "The power of binding and loosing was always claimed by the Pharisees. Under Queen Alexandra the Pharisees, "became the administrators of all public affairs so as to be empowered to banish and readmit who they pleased, as well as to loose and to bind." The various schools had the power to bind and to loose;" that is the power to forbid and to permit. (Talmud: Ta'anit 12a). This power and authority, vested in the rabbinical body of each age or in the Sanhedrin, received its ratification and final sanction from the celestial court of justice (Sifra, Emor, ix; Talmud: Makkot 23b).

In this sense Jesus, when appointing His disciples to be His successors, used the familiar formula (Matthew 16:19 and Matthew 18:18). By these words He virtually invested them with the same authority as that which He found belonging to the scribes and Pharisees who "bind heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but will not move them with one of their fingers," that is, "loose them," as they have the power to do (Matthew 23:2-4)

This is what seems to be clear in the text of scripture when seeing 2 Corinthians 2:1-8 where Paul noted the man who sinned greatly was to now be forgiven after casting judgement on him earlier. ..just as he'd done with others whom he gave over to Satan to be disciplined ( 1 Corinthians 5:2-4 , 1 Timothy 1:19-20, etc).

Annanias and Sapharia in Acts 5 also comes to mind when they sinned agains the Lord and the apostles were used as instruments of judgment upon them.


And to be clear, in the event it's misunderstood, I'm not speaking of someone being put in a position of leadership saying "Oh, I'll just forgive the WHOLE WORLD..." and all being pardoned. Moreover, as acknowleding the clear Biblical point that leadership had the authority given by Christ to forgive sins, that does not mean logically that all of the texts about repentance or asking the Lord for oneself are to be dismised...as that'd be no more reasonable than one saying that all of the texts about repetance and all giving an account means that Jesus DIDN'T mean what He said when it came to saying clearly others had the AUTHORITY to forgive.


We have to consider the apostles when they themselves cast JUDGEMENT upon other believers, proclaimed them excommunicated from the church and turned others over to Satan...

In the example of St. Paul:
Both the identity of this individual and the details of his actions are unknown...though earlier critics normally identified him with the "incestuous" man of I Corinthians 5, whereas most moder interpreters see him as either another member of the Corinthian church or someone from outside of Corinth. Paul wrote to the people on the subject of reconcilliation...and he noted how he wanted them to be obedient ( and one can see more in II Corinthians 10:6). For Paul had apostolic authority (II Corinthians 10:8 and II Corinthians 13:10)...


And with forgiveness being proclaimed, I know of many instances of where someone has noted to another "I forgive you FOR your sins..."---in light of how forgiveness of their sins was an issue where they were proclaiming the FINISHED work of Christ on their behalf and stating the need to declare to others what Christ has called all of us to do to one another...even the unsaved...when it comes to ministering forgivness in HIS name.



REPENTANCE is not always the prerequisit for recieving forgivness...and there are many scriptures that don't support that, even though many support the ideology that repentance often precedes faith and grace.


For many, the understanding is that God's KINDNESS and grace is what is meant to lead to repentance---as seen in Romans 2:2-8 . Additionally, with the apostles, there's no record of scripture saying that they were to declare forgivness only if they KNEW that someone had changed. They also seemed to have the ability given to them by Christ to proclaim to others (regarding the Gospel) the reality of forgivness

I agree that faith/personal repentance is required for grace to become active...though I do not see all cases/accounts of scripture showing that...and the discussion is, IMHO, similar to the many ways that those for the concept of Free-Will will debate against those for the Concept of Election/Sovereignty, as there are texts supporting both the concepts of men choosing to serve the Lord while also showing where the Lord first MOVED upon the hearts of men/enabled them to seek him in the first place. To me, its a matter of what many academics call "truth in tension"---where two paradoxical concepts are held in harmony with one another without having one cancel the other out.

Originally Posted by Kylissa

Good point. I guess I am familiar with intercessory prayer - it was just honestly a foreign thought to me that we could ask forgiveness for another.

It is taught in Scripture that we must confess our own sins, and God will forgive us.

So that didn't seem to follow. I'm still not entirely sure if God will forgive (though it does seem to tell us to ask) or if it might not be how you mention salvation.
​

Gxg (G²);64968771 said:

In many places...extending forgiveness verbally is done in a way that's similar to a branch coming from a tree. The branch can only live/show fruit because of the root from which its connected---and likewise, because the Lord was the first to forgive us, we now have the freedom to forgive others...and are called to do so ( Luke 6:36-38 ). Other texts coming to mind would be ones such as 2 Corinthians 2:1-8 where Paul noted the man who sinned greatly...and whom he stated "I have forgiven in the sight of Christ" when telling the Corinthians to forgive as well....for he often noted how he had the right/power to pass judgement ( 1 Corinthians 5:2-4 , 1 Timothy 1:19-20, etc) just as the other apostles did.

John 20:21-23
​

​

N
21 Again Jesus said, &#8220;Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.&#8221; 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, &#8220;Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone&#8217;s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.&#8221;
​

Prior to that, there's also what the Lord told His own people when it came to the imperative to forgive...

Matthew 6:15

9 &#8220;This, then, is how you should pray:

&#8220;&#8216;Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,[a]
but deliver us from the evil one.&#8217;

14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you

But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Matthew 6:14-16
​

Luke 6:27-35
Love for Enemies
​

27 &#8220;But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.
32 &#8220;If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
​

Gxg (G²);64968855 said:

I agree that faith/personal repentance is required for grace to become active...though I do not see all cases/accounts of scripture showing that...and the discussion is, IMHO, similar to the many ways that those for the concept of Free-Will will debate against those for the Concept of Election/Sovereignty, as there are texts supporting both the concepts of men choosing to serve the Lord while also showing where the Lord first MOVED upon the hearts of men/enabled them to seek him in the first place. To me, its a matter of what many academics call "truth in tension"---where two paradoxical concepts are held in harmony with one another without having one cancel the other out.

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Continued from before...

The issue of God forgiving sin and yet men being given the same authority is within the same category of "truth in tension." This is something I see clearly with the ministry of Christ....and his Word that "the Son of Adam has authority to forgive sins..." (Luke 5:17-26 , Mark 2:1-12).
When Jesus shocked his hearers by proclaiming the forgivness of sins to the parayltic, others were offended and saying "Only GOD CAN FORGIVE SINS!!!!"--but Jesus indirectly claimed authority on earth to forgive by identifying Himself as the Son of Man (see also Luke 6:5, Luke 7:34, Luke 9:22-26, Luke 11:30, Luke 12:8, Luke 12:40, Luke 17:22, Luke 18:8, Luke 19:10, Luke 21:36)....something that is interesting in light of who Adam was and how he was noted as the original "Son of GOD" in the geneology of Christ (Luke 3:28). The title "Son of Man" can refer to either a prophetic figure (Ezekiel 2:1-3), to the end-time judge expected to arrive on the clouds of Heaven (Daniel 7:13-14), or simply to a mortal human being.


As the Syriac and other ancient Semitic versions of the NT reveal, Jesus, speaking Aramaic, was not saying "ben ish", but "ben Adam". It has everything to do with inherited authority, which is the whole point here.

Jesus had earthly authority to forgive sins, despite how the religious leaders/scribes accused him of blasphemy....a theoretically capital offense (Leviticus 24:15-16, Mark 14:64, etc) because they presumed that forgiveness was exclusively God's prerogative (see Exodus 34:6-7, Isaiah 43:25, Isaiah 44:22)......and they indirectly condemned Jesus for bypassing the commandments regarding atonement that involved the temple.

But Jesus displayed His power because, like Adam, He was the son of God. Jesus humbled Himself and became as a man...His authority on this earth was by virtue of His lineage...and He forgave because He was the Son of Adam, not simply because He was God. Or do you think it's merely accidental that He claimed His kinship with Adam to establish His authority to forgive? Adam was delegated that power, and the Sovereign Lord God Almighty has every right to delegate stewardship and dominion to whomsoever He chooses. As Jesus was born a man under the Law in order to redeem us, it is logical to see how He demonstrated what man was made to do. For any power Adam had was delegated to him by God Almighty....and IMHO, all power come to us from God, and He has given Him a Name, and authority and power...which He has, like His Father, delegated.

All of that is said in light of John 20:23 which seems to continue the theme of stewardship/delegated authority--as Paul even told the people that believers (rather than God) would be the ones to also JUDGE even angels ( I Corinthians 6:1-4) and us being CO-Heirs with Christ if we serve Him (Romans 8:17, Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, Hebrews 2:8-13, Revelation 20:3-5 ).

When Jesus kept saying that He DIDN'T do things in HIS OWN power/volition (John 5, John 7, etc), he wasn't fooling around. EVERYTHING He did in the period during which He ministered publically was in response to the specific guidance and direction of the Holy Spirit, and the POWER he exhibited wasn't HIS alone.... but Father God's. And as John 20:23 notes that the giving of the HOLY Spirit precedded his comments about their ability to forgive sins, it is inherent in the text that the Holy Spirit's authority is what gives man the room to forgive in the first place. Man can do whatever God has delegated him authority to do. For again, did Jesus not say, " If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained"?

Much of this goes back to the issue of what I John 5 notes when it comes to praying for others whose sin does not lead to death - for St. John noted also in the same book the power of confession....and as one of the leaders Christ appointed over the Church and who seemed to be given power to forgive sins, the dynamic of teaching others on forgiveness appears a matter of further teaching on how believers are to operate.

While I believe a lot of damage has and is done by clericalism, I prefer to confess to the priest. But here's the thing, I've found confessing even the normal accretion of pretty mild, venial sins over the course of a week or a fortnight, brings a wonderful sense of peace.

On the subject of confession to priests for forgiveness, in light of what scripture notes in John 20:20-23 with the issue of the apostolic leadership being told by Christ that they could either forgive or not forgive/have it honored, something that crossed my mind recently is the following:

• Is it not possible to even extend the discussion into saying that the gift of the Holy Spirit in forgiving others was not just meant for Church Leadership?

As another said on the issue, its clear to whom He's talking...but when He breathed on them and gave them the Holy Spirit, it could be said that He , by imputation, was also breathing on all who would receive His Holy Breath through the promise of Joel, in Acts II and beyond....especially as it concerns the apostles being charged to train/teach others to do ALL THAT Christ had empowered them/taught them to do (Matthew 28:29). That is something I still have to process further...

Some may take issue with that...but in seeing the text more fully, I'm reminded of the many other instances where the Lord actually showed HOW his people were to go to ONE another for healing/confession and forgiveness rather than the modern day mindset that "I just need to go to God...and THAT'S IT!!!!" Matthew 9 comes to mind again, in regards to
how Jesus proved that the paralysis was a result of sin, and the power to forgive and the power to heal were inherently linked.

Also, as scripture says elsewhere:
Striking to see that healing of sins didn't come when one simply went to the Lord---but rather, when one went through the ordained means He set up for the ministering of healing/forgivness to occur (elders). Some of this reminds me of what often happens in differing liturgical circles that still practice things along the lines of confession of sins to priests. The Orthodox CHurch is well known for doing this frequently--and one can go here for more detail. The Oriental Orthodox churches are another excellent example to study, IMHO, when it comes to the subject of confessing to others. For more, one can go here. In their words, as they said (for brief excerpt):

Kylissa said:

. The experience of God's Presence - especially as He truly Is - I think of how God told Moses no one could even see His face and live - I can't even describe how incredibly awesome it must be. And you're right, that is assuming we love him. If someone hates God or is so distorted as you say, yes I can imagine it might be "hell" to experience Him?
.

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God is LOVE - His essential nature, as I John notes.

And even Hell itself is an expression of that love for those who willfully choose to go against Him. The reality is that everyone wants to go to Heaven - but not many want to meet God or be with Jesus when they get there....and if they couldn't stand his rule on Earth, even though there's suffering and regret later, there's the ever-present reality that being forced to live under God's rule in Heaven wouldn't change them - God lets them go.

Kylissa said:

I may not have articulated it well, but I was just replying the same thing (basically) to GxG

I was thinking about how we pray for people's salvation, and while our prayer does not justify them, God may use our prayer in whatever way intercessory prayers work to bring about His work in their lives to save them. Not that our prayer "saved them".

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Indeed

Summary of Post #18 - "... the unforgiveable sin is simply failure to truly love."

This is getting closer to defining blaspheming The Holy Spirit (imo) especially when we consider the weight of the two greatest commandments (Matt 22).