"Adaptations" and other "givens"

Dec 16, 2011
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you are right about Adam and Eve -- evolution happens in populations, not individuals. so the idea of just two first humans becomes absurd. so the Church venerating them as Saints becomes absurd ...

I’m afraid that I need to disagree. Adam and Eve were the names of the earliest recorded Hebrew couple. They were remembered as people of faith, and there was much legend that sprang up concerning them, as they became the central actors in the creation mythology of the Hebrews and hence should be regarded as very significant. So, it’s not really that absurd that the Church would honor them. It would be far more absurd to entertain the idea that they were the only human beings who existed at that time, being that Cain fled his homeland and took for himself a wife from a neighboring tribe of people after killing Abel. And then he founded a new city.
 
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jckstraw72

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I’m afraid that I need to disagree. Adam and Eve were the names of the earliest recorded Hebrew couple. They were remembered as people of faith, and there was much legend that sprang up concerning them, as they became the central actors in the creation mythology of the Hebrews and hence should be regarded as very significant. So, it’s not really that absurd that the Church would honor them. It would be far more absurd to entertain the idea that they were the only human beings who existed at that time, being that Cain fled his homeland and took for himself a wife from a neighboring tribe of people after killing Abel. And then he founded a new city.

my question for all these interpretations you have is - what makes them Orthodox? the Fathers certainly regarded Adam and Eve as literally the first people, and several of them commented that Cain married his sister. so, I guess i don't understand what makes your ideas Orthodox, rather than personal theology?
 
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jckstraw72

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Thanks, brother. Coming from you, a graduate of seminary and an exceptionally bright human being with a lot of fire for God, that means A LOT. Now give some reps! ^_^:p^_^:p:D

nonsense! i'm only parroting what i have read from Fr. Seraphim and Fr. Damascene and the like. they are the ones to be admired!
 
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Get over yourself! I never said I admired you! ^_^:p:p:p^_^ Nah, I'm kiddin', man. Yes, these men are titans of Orthodoxy, but it takes free will on your part to have the wisdom to listen to them, bro!

nonsense! i'm only parroting what i have read from Fr. Seraphim and Fr. Damascene and the like. they are the ones to be admired!
 
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truthseeker32

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It's already okay to accept biological evolution...
Truefiction1,

I don't actually think it is wrong for an Orthodox Christian to affirm biological evolution. Both of my priests say it is perfectly fine and even two bishops I have spoken with think it is perfectly fine. I am merely trying to understand the reasoning of people like rus, jkstraw, armymatt, and gurney. While I still strongly disagree with their conclusions I think I am at least beginning to understand why they arrive at them. I do think it is interesting that some would leave the Orthodox faith if they came to believe in evolution whereas I would leave the Orthodox faith if Orthodoxy officially condemned evolution.
 
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Why would you leave Orthodoxy if they condemned evolution? Why would you choose secular theory over the faith of the ancients and your salvation? Why would you place evolution on so high a pedestal that it actually trumps Christ's Church and puts your soul in jeopardy? Why would us passing through stages of hominids through the ages be so important to you that you'd go against your faith? Perhaps this is exactly what we are saying to you guys who are pro-evolution? You are exalting a secular theory that cannot and will never be proven and turning it into an idol of sorts! It is becoming your idol if it is a non-negotiable determiner of which church to choose.

Church should shape US, not the reverse. We don't shop for churches looking for what we reconcile with what we know and love. We look for what shapes, molds, and changes us. We want the divine journey of theosis, not the secular to inform the divine?

Truefiction1,

I don't actually think it is wrong for an Orthodox Christian to affirm biological evolution. Both of my priests say it is perfectly fine and even two bishops I have spoken with think it is perfectly fine. I am merely trying to understand the reasoning of people like rus, jkstraw, armymatt, and gurney. While I still strongly disagree with their conclusions I think I am at least beginning to understand why they arrive at them. I do think it is interesting that some would leave the Orthodox faith if they came to believe in evolution whereas I would leave the Orthodox faith if Orthodoxy officially condemned evolution.
 
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truthseeker32

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If mankind has evolved and will continue to evolve, how are we related to Christ?
Because we as humans carry God's image in us. Why ought we to think this will go away if our physical attributes change? In comparison to humans just 5000 years ago we are taller, we have bones and organs that are now obsolete, on average our IQ is higher, etc. If 5000 years from now humans are taller and smarter than us and have adapted to have fewer teeth that doesn't mean they no longer carriers of God's image.

How is He fully God and fully Man if we are evolving away from the life form that He took on? And how is Adam representative of man if we are evolving away from Adam?
Christ and Adam can both be said to be "man" because they are part of the hominid strand to which God gave his divine image. Just because we and future generations might differ physically from Adam and Jesus doesn't mean we can't have in common God's divine nature.

If we are just another animal, which evolution and Darwin basically claim, then what is so sublime or special or unique about man that God wishes to save us over a baboon or a hamster? We are theoretically just a sophisticated animal on an evolutionary journey toward God-knows-what, so why is man unique or special at all?
Once again, because we carry God's image and other life forms do not. This is what separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom. We could look like bears, dolphins, or alligators and it would be this image that separates us, not our physical attributes. For instance, we are little different genetically from chimpanzees, but we all know that there is something else that makes us significantly different than chimpanzees, being that we are created in God's image and they are not.

Has the Darwinian legacy made us BETTER humans?
Has knowing that Jupiter exists and is made up of gas made us better humans? Should we only care about truth if it has perceived utility?

In fact, has anyone noticed how the argument 'there are animals in nature that are homosexual!' is often invoked in the homosexuality debate? In other words, 'the animals have gay sex, and since we're just more sophisticated animals ahead of them on an evolutionary continuum, yet still related and animals ourselves essentially, why is gay sex wrong?'
Such an argument is fallacious in that it assumes that just because certain things happen naturally means they are permissible, or that the mechanistic universe defines morality. Hamsters sometimes eat their young. That doesn't mean we should see it as permissible just because it occurs in nature.

Social Darwinism, eugenics, contraception, abortion, and all sorts of other Frankensteinian social tinkering ideas flowed out of the post-Darwin world.
contraception and abortion were both widely practiced long before Charles Darwin proposed his theory of evolution. Anyone who thinks that the world has become a worse place since Darwin needs to brush up on their history. Human beings have always been awful to one another.

Orthodoxy DOES indeed teach that man was created for eternity with God. Man was vibrant with life coursing through his veins and soul, and nature was in harmony with God. The Uncreated Light was with Adam and Eve, and the destiny God laid out was an eternal one with theosis and perfection as the endgame. Life was abundant.
No argument with this statement. We simply disagree about terminology.
 
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truthseeker32

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Why would you leave Orthodoxy if they condemned evolution? Why would you choose secular theory over the faith of the ancients and your salvation?
Well, first of all I don't think I have to choose. As to why I believe in evolution, it is because once one has taken the time to fully understand it denying it would be akin to denying the existence of dinosaurs. To deny evolution is to affirm that God has organized the world to deceive us. Our dating techniques, fossil records, genetics, sediment records, etc. all point to an old earth and evolution. Does this mean I buy into everything Darwin said, or that there aren't gaps or room for improvement in evolutionary theories? Absolutely not. However, anyone who denies that there is some sort of biological evolution process taking place is akin to a detective who sees all evidence pointing to one conclusion and denies it because of his preconceived commitments.

You question my faith, Gurney, but if evolution gains even more credibility or is even proven in the future, I will still feel at home in the Orthodox Church. Will you?
 
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ArmyMatt

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I’m afraid that I need to disagree. Adam and Eve were the names of the earliest recorded Hebrew couple. They were remembered as people of faith, and there was much legend that sprang up concerning them, as they became the central actors in the creation mythology of the Hebrews and hence should be regarded as very significant. So, it’s not really that absurd that the Church would honor them. It would be far more absurd to entertain the idea that they were the only human beings who existed at that time, being that Cain fled his homeland and took for himself a wife from a neighboring tribe of people after killing Abel. And then he founded a new city.

no they were not the first Hebrew couple. the existed long before the Hebrews were a people. since their only real story is their creation and fall, and the saints afirm the story as something that actually happened, it is NOT just some myth or legend.

Adam and Eve had other children (you can have a ton of kids when you live 900+ years), and those where who Cain went.
 
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I have a problem with you saying I questioned your faith. I did not. I questioned why you would allow evolution to trump faith possibly? I never questioned your faith per se. I don't know what you believe. Just don't turn this into a situation where you portray the anti-evolution crowd as questioning your faith. That would be unfair and wrong.

Evolution will not be proven, so your question at the end is moot.

As for the impeccable techniques and awesome technology proving so much, I don't see that at all nor do many other scientists. Radiocarbon dating was proven to be unreliable years ago. Carbon doesn't always break down at an even rate when environmental factors intervene. And as for dating things into the millions of years, I'm skeptical. I guess I don't question your faith in Christ so much as your quickness to jump on evolutionary bandwagons and question the narratives of the Holy Fathers of our Church.

BTW, refresh my memory...are you actually Orthodox or is your icon here indicative of someone about to become Orthodox?
Well, first of all I don't think I have to choose. As to why I believe in evolution, it is because once one has taken the time to fully understand it denying it would be akin to denying the existence of dinosaurs. To deny evolution is to affirm that God has organized the world to deceive us. Our dating techniques, fossil records, genetics, sediment records, etc. all point to an old earth and evolution. Does this mean I buy into everything Darwin said, or that there aren't gaps or room for improvement in evolutionary theories? Absolutely not. However, anyone who denies that there is some sort of biological evolution process taking place is akin to a detective who sees all evidence pointing to one conclusion and denies it because of his preconceived commitments.

You question my faith, Gurney, but if evolution gains even more credibility or is even proven in the future, I will still feel at home in the Orthodox Church. Will you?
 
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Your argument throwing Jupiter in there is bizarre, TS. Apples and oranges argument. Jupiter wouldn't have theological implications about the nature of man, the image of the Divine in man, and knowing about Jupiter won't lead to social Darwinism, eugenics, men and women seeing themselves as essentially a higher-functioning animal who can sin at will because in the end "we're just animals." Knowing about planets doesn't create bad theology. Evolution does.

Your arguments about man's body and soul sound like something out of an X-Men movie mixed with a slight taste of Gnosticism.
Because we as humans carry God's image in us. Why ought we to think this will go away if our physical attributes change? In comparison to humans just 5000 years ago we are taller, we have bones and organs that are now obsolete, on average our IQ is higher, etc. If 5000 years from now humans are taller and smarter than us and have adapted to have fewer teeth that doesn't mean they no longer carriers of God's image.

Christ and Adam can both be said to be "man" because they are part of the hominid strand to which God gave his divine image. Just because we and future generations might differ physically from Adam and Jesus doesn't mean we can't have in common God's divine nature.

Once again, because we carry God's image and other life forms do not. This is what separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom. We could look like bears, dolphins, or alligators and it would be this image that separates us, not our physical attributes. For instance, we are little different genetically from chimpanzees, but we all know that there is something else that makes us significantly different than chimpanzees, being that we are created in God's image and they are not.

Has knowing that Jupiter exists and is made up of gas made us better humans? Should we only care about truth if it has perceived utility?

Such an argument is fallacious in that it assumes that just because certain things happen naturally means they are permissible, or that the mechanistic universe defines morality. Hamsters sometimes eat their young. That doesn't mean we should see it as permissible just because it occurs in nature.

contraception and abortion were both widely practiced long before Charles Darwin proposed his theory of evolution. Anyone who thinks that the world has become a worse place since Darwin needs to brush up on their history. Human beings have always been awful to one another.

No argument with this statement. We simply disagree about terminology.
 
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inconsequential

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Did Doc Brown conduct the IQ tests himself or did that fall to Marty? Also, what did Moses think of the Delorean?

Seriously, though, how did they determine that our IQs are higher than humans of 5000 years ago? They DID build the pyramids without modern technology.
 
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If mankind has evolved and will continue to evolve, how are we related to Christ?
Because we as humans carry God's image in us. Why ought we to think this will go away if our physical attributes change? In comparison to humans just 5000 years ago we are taller, we have bones and organs that are now obsolete, on average our IQ is higher, etc. If 5000 years from now humans are taller and smarter than us and have adapted to have fewer teeth that doesn't mean they no longer carriers of God's image.


a very good answer indeed. In addition, I would ask, is everyone born with deformities not created in the image and likeness of God? Or, what if someone gets a limb removed? Or is born with a birth defect or with Down's Syndrome or mental retardation?

I would tread very carefully if I were you guys associating physical attributes and abilities to being created in the image and likeness of God. Many have justified sin against those who they thought did not look like they should or were not capable of the same abilities as not being created in the image and likeness of God.
 
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jckstraw72

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yes, all of the kinds we read about in Genesis become mere transitions on the way to something else. the kinds lose their permanence which is a denial of the logoi -- and the many logoi are the one Logos, and the one Logos the many logoi - so we get into some sticky situations here.
 
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Amen! Exactly. Nobody in this room would draw such a ghastly conclusion!

c'mon Greg, you know he meant that if evolution is true we were at some point not human and will evolve into something that is also not human
 
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jckstraw72

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and if man is a transitional form then how he is the crown of creation? how the mediator within creation? how the microcosm within the macrocosm? the king and crown hasn't yet appeared methinks if all this is true -- and what a kingdom he's going to be brought into!
 
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This whole discussion makes me imagine God Emperor of Dune in my head. LOL....the sandtrout, the Golden Path, fish speakers, the whole nine yards!

and if man is a transitional form then how he is the crown of creation? how the mediator within creation? how the microcosm within the macrocosm? the king and crown hasn't yet appeared methinks if all this is true -- and what a kingdom he's going to be brought into!
 
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I think, and this may seem quite a simple point, that we hear "and it was GOOD" after God creation for a reason. It was..and is! Why would man need to evolve? And why would God leave so much to chance and create a system wherein people theoretically would create an exaggerated creation myth to explain the ascent of man from a simian hominid?

the only thing that ends up having permanence is ... death .... a complete reversal ... the logoi are Uncreated energies of God ... and we place death among them?
 
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