Israel assumed that just because of Abraham they would always have their land v24. But it was made desolate because of their sin. Even after that, their obedience was hollow v32. This sounds very much like Mt 15 in which Jesus quotes Is 29. You can't help but hear Ezekiel echoing in Jesus' explanation why it would be destroyed in the generation after him. There is no unconditional guarantee to the land.
Are we asking Ezek 33's question?
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Yes, you have accurately represented Ezekiel 33 and the words of Jesus in Matthew 15. But it is absolutely false that there is no unconditional guarantee of the land.
Some of the land promises indeed came with a condition. That condition was repentance. And there is an unconditional promise that the requisite repentance will indeed finally come. That is why many others of the land promises are unconditional.
I have already quoted very many of these unconditional promises to you. You are not rejecting my interpretations. You are rejecting the explicit words of scripture, preferring instead your interpretations of the meanings of other scriptures. In doing this you have forgotten the most basic and essential one of all possible rules for interpreting scripture. That rule is:
If a proposed interpretation of any scripture directly contradicts any other scripture, the interpretation is incorrect.
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They did not get to stay in the land simply because Abraham was their genetic father, just like Jn 8.
Of course we could always just say that the DofJ never happened, or was just an "interpretation."
Of course we could always just say that the DofJ never happened, or was just an "interpretation."
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They were indeed cast out of the land because of their sins, and Jerusalem was indeed destroyed because of their sins. But the scriptures very plainly say that after the Lord comes "with fire, to render his anger with fury and his rebuke with flames of fire," they will be brought back to the land.
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You can't find a prophetic reference to Messiah without it being burried in a reference about Yisrael.Shimshon
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Correct, if we forsake Him, he forsakes us. Sin=death and seperation from God.
Yet, speaking of Ezekiel, we have an unconditional promise of restoration.
It's not for our sake, nor by our deeds, corrupt or good that we are to be redeemed. But because the Lord has commanded it be so.
Ezekiel 36 said:
It's not about an unconditional guarantee because of our heritage. It's about the sake of God's holy name. He promised to do it for us. Despite us. It's not about who we are, or what we have done. It's about what God has said he would do, with us. He named us, formed us in the womb, and birthed us in one day. If we reject him, he will not reject 'his promise' to us. He makes a way for us to exist, remain, and become who he promised.
Ezekiel 36 said:
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Actually it is Christ who does everything for Israel so it can have the promised gift of the Spirit, Gal. 3.
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I do mean in the historic sense, as in Acts 13:35 etc. I'm not refering to anything modern or future.
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Biblewriter you are stating flat error! The covenant with Israel was made at Mount Sinai!
As God rehearses the covenant with Israel why would He tell them to stand on Mt Ebal and Mt Gerazim to pronounce blessings and curses associated with the covenant in Deuteronomy 27???
Furthermore read Deuteronomy 28 as God tells them through Moses what would happen if they dishonored the covenant.
You're selectively reading scripture Bblewriter! The covenant was indeed conditional...and that is how Israel ended up exiled and Judah ended up in captivity.
How you can say "unconditional" is pretty amazing! How did Israel and Judah end up off the land because of God's anger if the covenant is unconditional?
Please answer that.
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EbedM, look at posts above. He means in the sense of the "gifts and calling" in Rom 11. I gave my answer on that; perhaps you have something else to add.
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The problem is understanding the promises in context. This is what Paul says to Gentiles about it...Ephesians 2:11-13:
11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—
12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Jesus INCLUDED GENTILES in THE PROMISES!!! Another reason this two peoples of God teaching is erroneous!
There is ONE PEOPLE OF GOD and that is all that are in Christ...and as PAUL says many times THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE regardless of race, sex, or social standing!
To teach God has two peoples is flat out error! Peter says it to Christians like this...1 Peter 2:9, 10
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
There is no doubt Peter is including Gentiles and Jews as God's people, using the very language God used for Israel in the OT. So Christians that want to try and say otherwise are just confounded.
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I have no problem with what you are saying. What I told him was that "gifts and calling" are God's way of saying there would at least be some Jews; he is neither totally for or against them, because all those who have faith have "God with us."
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There is nothing even remotely conditional in:
9 Then God said: "Call his name Lo-Ammi, For you are not My people, And I will not be your God.
10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel Shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass In the place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' There it shall be said to them, 'You are sons of the living God.'
Hosea 1:9-10
Nor is there anything even remotely conditional in:
7 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "I have raised My hand in an oath that surely the nations that are around you shall bear their own shame.
8 "But you, O mountains of Israel, you shall shoot forth your branches and yield your fruit to My people Israel, for they are about to come.
9 For indeed I am for you, and I will turn to you, and you shall be tilled and sown.
10 I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities shall be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt.
Ezekiel 36:7-10
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This Biblewriter is said because of the breaking of the covenant. Why was Hosea told to take a wife that was a harlot? Because It represents the spiritual harlotry of Israel. Did God not tell Moses "this people will play the harlot and break my covenant"? Or did you forget Deuteronomy 31 14-18?
So this is the result of the covenant which was conditional!!!
Nor is there anything even remotely conditional in:
Now this is really showing your error! I've been though this with you before. This is God acting sovereignly...and where is Israel at this time? THEY ARE IN EXILE. This is God's appeal to them...so why did you leave off at verse 10?
Because you're disingenuous!
Let me add the rest of the passage for the sake of clarity...Ezekiel 37:11 should give the point I just made...that this is AN APPEAL TO ISRAEL TO TURN BACK TO HIM:
11 Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’
Shame on you Biblewriter...
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This Biblewriter is said because of the breaking of the covenant. Why was Hosea told to take a wife that was a harlot? Because It represents the spiritual harlotry of Israel. Did God not tell Moses "this people will play the harlot and break my covenant"? Or did you forget Deuteronomy 31 14-18?
So this is the result of the covenant which was conditional!!!
You missed the entire point of the prophecy. As the Holy spirit reminded us when He quoted it in Romans 9:26,"And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' There they shall be called sons of the living God."
So although the promise of remaining in the land was indeed conditional, the promise of being brought back was absolutely unconditional.
This is not even being disingenuous, it is being outright dishonest. I quoted only through verse 10 for brevity, and to stress that verse 10 makes it very plain that the meaning is that absolutely all of "the house of Israe;" will again inhabit "the land of Israel." The same unconditional language continues for another 28 verses, all the way to the end of the chapter in verse 38.Nor is there anything even remotely conditional in:
Now this is really showing your error! I've been though this with you before. This is God acting sovereignly...and where is Israel at this time? THEY ARE IN EXILE. This is God's appeal to them...so why did you leave off at verse 10?
Because you're disingenuous!
Let me add the rest of the passage for the sake of clarity...Ezekiel 37:11 should give the point I just made...that this is AN APPEAL TO ISRAEL TO TURN BACK TO HIM:
11 Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’
Shame on you Biblewriter...
The verse you quoted is from another prophecy entirely, which begins in Ezekiel 37:1, "The hand of the LORD came upon me and brought me out in the Spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones."
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God can sound unconditional in prophecies but that's only because he is persuading them of blessing if they do obey. Lk 21 still says the DofJ was the punishment in fulfillment of all that was written. Last I checked, punishment had to do with disobedience, ie, unmet conditions.
It turns out that it is not Israel's own obedience anyway that brings the blessings of Messiah, but his own, on their behalf. "In the Gospel, Israel fulfilled all of its obligations to God and God fulfilled all of his promises to Israel"--R. Brinsmead.
It turns out that it is not Israel's own obedience anyway that brings the blessings of Messiah, but his own, on their behalf. "In the Gospel, Israel fulfilled all of its obligations to God and God fulfilled all of his promises to Israel"--R. Brinsmead.
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That is why the prophcies are unconditional, and that is exactly what He said in Ezekiel 36:1-24 "But I had concern for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations wherever they went. 'Therefore say to the house of Israel, "Thus says the Lord GOD: 'I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name's sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went. And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the LORD,' says the Lord GOD, 'when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land.'"
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Biblewriter...please stop!! Do you really think with Israel in exile at this time this doesn't refer to their return to the land???
Israel returned...it's right there in Ezra, Nehemiah, and even Zechariah.
You equally ignore God is PLEADING with them to return to Him which tells you their in the Exile.
Jesus walked the land of Israel. He was right there and He knew where He was. This is what he told the apostles when he sent them out in Matthew 10:6, 7
5 These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; 6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
That's what it is Biblewriter..."the house of Israel" as Jesus said.
They were restored...sorry.
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What I notice about many of these visions in Ezekiel is the feature that the Spirit of God will be poured out. So whatever all the geography and construction details mean, there has to be the spirit's coming. Which is what we have in Acts 2, but using Joel's text not Ezek's.
Then, when people try to claim an Ezek passage has come true today, there's no pouring out of the Spirit! Not that I know of anyway.
Then, when people try to claim an Ezek passage has come true today, there's no pouring out of the Spirit! Not that I know of anyway.
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