Are Gentiles Now a Chosen Royal Priesthood?

Messianic Jewboy · Sep 24, 2013

HannibalFlavius said:
No.

It's not about blood to me, it is about spirit.

It seems it is more about indentity.

HannibalFlavius · Sep 25, 2013

mpossoff said:
It seems it is more about indentity.

The observant Jews are Jews to me because of their disbelief in Jesus and the traditions they have always kept.They are very special to me, but it has nothing to do with blood, they have an identity of being a Jew without me looking at their papers.

I see them like kings on the earth.

But the Messianic Jew, not so much.

I see them like myself, just as the orthodox would view the Messianic Jew.

Gxg (G²) · Sep 25, 2013

mpossoff said:
God never said to a Jew you're not my people, He said I will call them my people who weren't my people.

The mystery of the Gospel as Paul says that was hidden is that Gentiles are equal co-heirs of the promise with Israel in Yeshua. You don't have to be a child of Israel to be a recipient of the promise.

Yeshua is the Messiah of Israel THEREFORE Lord of the world.

Precisely..

Was wondering the same when having to address the same dynamics earlier as others did when claims were made against what you noted and it was laid out directly for what it was ( #24 #27 #31/ #34/ #36 ). Nonetheless, since the reality of what seems to be present is explicit Two-House Teaching which ignores multiple texts in their context/setting in order to make the wild claim that Gentiles are automatically Israel (the tribes not Judah or Benjamin) - it is interesting to see the ways that it is treated as if it has not been addressed before within Messianic Judaism.

And, for that matter, in the early body of believers when they address the ways that the 12 tribes were ALL present (although some scattered more so than others) - all of them deemed to be "Jews" in their day while Gentiles were seen as separate from that...part of the Commonwealth of Israel rather than having to physically be Israel in the same way that the 12 tribes were in order to be accepted to the Lord.

And a lot of the problems go right back to others not understanding what it means to be adopted - thinking it means to be "Jews" in spiritual transformation when the reality is that assuming such/claiming "I'm no longer Gentile - and that's THAT!!!" is a way of dishonoring the Jewish Bride one is engaged to.....even if they don't want to see it.

It's unfortunate - but that's the reality of what occurs when one ends up falling into Two-House as it is in the mainstream. As another wisely noted:

...the problem of supersessionism in Two-House theology. In Christian theology, the teaching usually assumes that the Church has replaced Israel and that distinctions no longer apply between Jew and Gentile. In Two-House, it means instead that Gentile identity has been replaced by Israelite identity. Its almost a reverse form of supersessionism, but, Michael concludes, achieves pretty much the same result: if not the eradication of Jewish identity, at least its degradation. .....The sense of legitimacy that Two House theology grants its followers can easily translate into a sense of entitlemententitlement to the name Israel, entitlement to interpret the Mosaic Law independent of Jewish (and Christian) exegetical tradition, even entitlement to the Right of Returnand while Ephraimites believe they are practicing a Biblically sanctioned religion in solidarity with the Jewish people, the fact that Jews do not accept their claims will almost inevitably result in a negative stance taken toward the Jewish people.

Glad others addressed early on the aspects of extremes within Two House which seem to be showing up of late:

As said before, I am sympathetic with the Two-House view in certain variations - one example being an instance I'm reminded of where one poster (pat34lee ) received a lot of hassle over it due to him supporting a strain of Two-House as a Messianic Gentile believer - from the thread entitled Identity Chrisis: Slander. It was taken wrongly at multiple points simply because he believed that there was connection between Gentiles and Israel...even though there's evidence for how many within the Northern Kingdom of Israel got dispersed amongst the Gentile Nations and forgot identity (as shared more in-depth here and here ). As said earlier, John McKee did a good job covering the issue of being grafted into Israel and examining the ways Gentiles can mean various things...outside of simply saying they're not connected to the House of Israel or other Hebrew dynamics:

But all of that aside, there's a lot of identity issues whenever people try to attach Ephraim AUTOMATICALLY to the phrase "Gentile" and claim that any/all passages on Hosea must deal with Gentiles being the Lost Tribes when the reality is that the Body of Messiah NEVER advocated. And sometimes, you feel like saying "Really, it's okay to be a Gentile

"

Gentiles are children of Abraham by faith - something Galatians 4 and Romans 4 all allude to.

And there's no real avoidance of what Paul noted rather plainly when it came to the issue of being "Israel"...

Romans 9:612

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED." 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

In verse 6 of Romans 9, he says, "For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel." In other words, Pauls argument is that the promises of God always hold true for the true Israel, the spiritual Israel, but not all ethnic Israel is true Israel simply because they're ethnically related to Israel (Jacob)---just as not all ethnically related to Abraham are deemed to be "Abraham's Children" like Christ noted. Thats his first statement of the argument: "They are not all Israel who are descended from Israel." The assumption is: there is a true Israel; Gods saving promises are made to them; and these promises have never failed.

In verse 8 Paul states the argument a third time in more general terms without naming Israel or Abraham so that we see the principle involved. "That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants." This, he says again, is why the word of God has not failed why the promises of God have not failed even though many of Israelites according to the flesh are accursed and cut off from Christ. Its because the promises are for the children of promise the children of God and not every child of Israelite flesh is a child of promise. When Paul distinguishes "children of the flesh" and "children of God" he means that not all physical Israelites are "children of God." And that means that the term "children of God" is not a mere ethnic or physical or historical term. It has its full saving meaning just like it does in Romans 8:16, 21, and Philippians 2:15 (cf. Hosea 1:10). And when he then says that these "children of God" are "children of promise," he means that they have their spiritual position not because of their physical connections, but because of Gods effective promise. The promise produced the position. ...AND those who believe in the Promise (fulfilled in Messiah) are those who truly occupy the position.

As said before when the same discussion was brought up by yourself ( #51 ), I appreciated the an excellent dialogue on the subject not too long ago (here, here, here, here , here, here , here and here/here)...concerning what it means to be nourished by the Root. Outside of that, I doubt there'll be much agreement in this case just as in others when the same was rehashed/addressed.

And all of this - to be clear - goes back to noting what it means to be a part of God's One New Man. Yeshua himself also pointed to the same realities - at the cost of being denounced by the Jewish people in his audience - when talking on Gentiles being deemed as equals with the Jewish people concerning acceptance/love. From Naaman the Syrian ( #101 ) to the Samaritan Woman in her interactions with the Messiah ( #15 #35 #186 ) or the ROman centurions Yeshua celebrated ( as noted in #75 /#77 and #94 ). The same can be seen in many of his parables to the Hebrews on gathering others from the highways to the streets and many other places - and putting them in a position of influence when others for whom the banquet was made REFUSED to come ( Luke 14:23-25/ ).

Matthew 8
I tell this one, Go, and he goes; and that one, Come, and he comes. I say to my servant, Do this, and he does it.

10 When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 13:21
But he will answer, I dont know you or where you come from.26 Then you will say, We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.
27 But he will reply, I dont know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!
28 There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God.

Gxg (G²) · Sep 25, 2013

sevengreenbeans said:
Just because one lives among wolves does not make one a wolf. It could influence behavior, however, if not guarding the origins of one's existence.

The scriptures quoted by HannibalFlavius clearly state "among the Gentiles", they never label any tribe of Israel "Gentiles". And they are speaking about guarding the origins of one's existence. To keep good conduct among the Gentiles.

As said before, when it comes to basic scriptures such as 1 Peter 2 and the scattered Israelites (northern kingdom - according to the passage quoted from Hosea), the context is that they are "sojourners and exiles" and they are to keep their conduct among the Gentiles honorable.

I Peter was addressed to Christians in "Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia" (I Peter 1:1). This would seem to include most of Asia Minor (modern Turkey), although Peter may have used the terms in a more restricted sense. Believers in those areas were suffering persecution for their faith (I Peter 1:6, I Peter 4:12-19, I Peter 5:9-10, etc)...and Peter described his recipients as God's elect in Diaspora (I Peter 1:1)....terms normally reserved for Jews.

In regards to the term "strangers" used in I Peter 1:1, in this context it refers to people in lowly conditions, those who reside in an area without the legal protection and rights provided to citizens who stay in one place for only a brief time. The Christians of Asia Minor were considered strangers either because (1) they were from already marginalized social castes or (2) by becoming Christians they were joining a disenfranchised group. Jewish and Gentile Christians were scattered throughout much of Asia Minor...and people from this area were in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost (see the note on Act 2:9-11)...and Paul preached/taught in some of these provinces.

And with that in mind comes the reality of understanding what the Apostles ALWAYS noted when it came to showing how the Gentiles were distinct from the Jews - not having to be seen as "Ephraim" in order to be blessed as Children of Abraham by faith/in God's Israel....per Galatians 3-4. As you know, Paul was concerned with the Gentiles always keeping in mind how Jew and Gentile were united together - with the Gentiles sharing in the Spiritual Blessings of the Jews (as said in #44 ).

Romans 15:8
7 Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God. 8 For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs9 so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written:

“Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles;

I will sing hymns to your name.”[c]

10 Again, it says,

“Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people.”[d]

11 And again,

“Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles,

and sing praises to him, all you peoples.”[e]

12 And again, Isaiah says,

“The Root of Jesse will spring up,

one who will arise to rule over the nations;the Gentiles will hope in him.”[f]

.....13 May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Paul the Minister to the Gentiles

14 I myself am convinced, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, complete in knowledge and competent to instruct one another. 15 I have written you quite boldly on some points, as if to remind you of them again, because of the grace God gave me 16 to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

17 Therefore I glory in Christ Jesus in my service to God. 18 I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done— 19 by the power of signs and wonders, through the power of the Spirit of God. So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ. 20 It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else’s foundation. 21 Rather, as it is written:
“Those who were not told about him will see,
and those who have not heard will understand.”[g]

22 This is why I have often been hindered from coming to you

...25 But now I am going to Jerusalem to minister to the saints. 26 For it pleased those from Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor among the saints who are in Jerusalem. 27 It pleased them indeed, and they are their debtors. For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews’ spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings.

To motivate believers to give to the offering Paul was collecting for the “poor among the saints in Jerusalem” (Romans 15.26), he taught that since the Gentile believers had received spiritual blessings from the Jewish believers in Jerusalem, they owed it to the them to share their material blessings with the same. Jerusalem was a poor city and one must be careful to note that Jews in the Dispersion often sent money to relieve the needs of those in Jerusalem. Christians in Jerusalem (primarily Jewish) suffered particular hardship and Paul and Barnabas, had been involved in an earlier aid project in a time of famine (Acts 11:27-30; 12:25). Paul desired to visit Jerusalem with the gifts that the churches had raised for the Christians there (compare: Gal 2:10; 1 Cor 16:1-4; 2 Cor. 8-9; cf. Acts 24:17).

In light of this context, Paul saw a deeper significance than just loving charity. To Paul the offering was symbolizing the unity of all types of believers - a token of fellowship between Jewish and Gentile believers. It was a duty (Rom 15:27), a solemn obligation of Gentile Christians in view of the privilege they had received in being grafted into God's olive tree (Rom 11:17) - with all of this conforming to the general principle that those who receive spiritual blessings should share their own material blessings (1 Cor 9:3-14; Gal 6:6).

The Gentiles had recieved the Gospel ("spiritual blessings") originally from Jerusalem - as it was from there that the Gospel had disseminated (Acts 1:8, Acts 8, etc.). And if the Gentiles had recieved the Gospel/"spiritual blessings" originally from Jerusalem, surely they would want to offer financial help to the Mother Church in Jerusalem.

For more technical addressment, when it comes to the words, some basic examination of what they mean, the term "Share in in the Jews Spiritual blessings" is interesting. Shared (2841) is koinoneo.. from koinos = that which is in common, belonging to several or of which several are partakers - the verb koinoneo is related to the noun koinonia translated "contribution" in Ro 15:26) means to to share one's possessions, with the implication of some kind of joint participation and mutual interest.

This Greek word is used in a marriage contract where the husband and wife agree to a joint-participation in the necessaries of life. The key idea in the word is that of a partnership, a possessing things in common, a belonging in common to.

On the term "Spirtual blessings", Spiritual (4152) (pneumatikos from pneuma = spirit) relates to the human spirit, as the part of man which is akin to God and serves as his instrument or organ. It refers to the nonmaterial rather than the material part of man. It is used predominately of what belongs to the supernatural world as compared to that which belongs to the natural world. Note that the suffix "-ikos" on the end of an adjective means signifies “-like”. Thus pneumatikos means “belonging to the spirit" or "of the nature of the spirit" and so "pertaining to that which is spiritual". For other places where Pneumatikos is used, it is used 26x in 21verses- Rom. 1:11; 7:14; 15:27; 1 Co. 2:13, 15; 3:1; 9:11; 10:3f; 12:1; 14:1, 37; 15:44, 46; Gal. 6:1; Eph. 1:3; 5:19; 6:12; Col. 1:9; 3:16; 1 Pet. 2:5.

Gentiles are debtors to the Jews - and we owe them so much because "salvation is of the Jews" ( John 4:22). From the authors of the NT (who were mainly Jewish - apart from Luke) to the fact that their God became the one whom the Gentiles served as well.

And thankfully, the Messiah has redeemed the NATIONS in Him by His blood - all who serve Him being a part of His people (even if not considered ethnic Israel) since the Commonwealth of Israel isn't about having to identify as a tribe of Israel. In Yeshua, it's about being His child!!

Revelation has the entire focus throughout being on what the Messiah did - both in judging the nations and in His mercy shown to those whom he redeemed...making one New People for His glory, the Jewish Remnant combined with the Gentile Remnant - both out of the world and ethnic Israel to make the People He desired....and none of that any point had to do with replacing God's love for His people

Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,
Revelation 1:4-6

Revelation 5:8-Revelation 5
And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.

Revelation 7:8-10 /Revelation 7

The Great Multitude in White Robes

9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

David Ben Yosef · Sep 25, 2013

Gxg (G²);64197652 said:
Nonetheless, since the reality of what seems to be present is explicit Two-House Teaching which ignores multiple texts in their context/setting..

You noticed that too? How can a Hebrew Roots/Two House adherent come to the MJ forum donning a Messianic faith icon, and teach replacement theology? Doesn't that break just about every rule layed out in the SOP? If it does, it won't continue for long. Trust me.

Messianic Jewboy · Sep 25, 2013

Gxg (G²);64197722 said:

Gentiles become 'the children of Abraham by faith', this doesn't mean that Gentiles become Israelites or spiritual Israelites. Even not all the children of Abraham are Israelites to begin with.

2 House is salvation by works in a nutshell. The Galatians were never considered Israelites but children of Abraham.

Messianic Jewboy · Sep 25, 2013

HannibalFlavius said:
Well, I'm speaking from the book of Matthew about it being called a prophecy, that God would take his son out of Egypt, and this happened with Jesus in the book of Matthew.

The audience are the believing Jewish remnant who Peter is preaching too not non Israelites. That's the context.

HannibalFlavius · Sep 25, 2013

David Ben Yosef said:
You noticed that too? How can a Hebrew Roots/Two House adherent come to the MJ forum donning a Messianic faith icon, and teach replacement theology? Doesn't that break just about every rule layed out in the SOP? If it does, it won't continue for long. Trust me.

Who do I replace with my theory?

Nobody.

I believe in an adoption, not a replacement, there were children from Ephraim present in the days of Jesus, I don't say we replaced them, who do I replace?

I recocgnize everyone who is a Jew.

But you say I believe in replacement theology?

Messianic Jewboy · Sep 25, 2013

HannibalFlavius said:
Who do I replace with my theory?

Nobody.

I believe in an adoption, not a replacement, there were children from Ephraim present in the days of Jesus, I don't say we replaced them, who do I replace?

I recocgnize everyone who is a Jew.

But you say I believe in replacement theology?

Why do you say that the adopted are Ephraim? The scriptures testify non Israelites are adopted because of the promise to Abraham, all nations will be blessed by your Seed(capitol S)

HannibalFlavius · Sep 25, 2013

mpossoff said:
Why do you say that the adopted are Ephraim? The scriptures testify non Israelites are adopted because of the promise to Abraham, all nations will be blessed by your Seed(capitol S)

And what about Isaac?

Am I also of the seed of Isaac?

I am told that I am.

HannibalFlavius · Sep 25, 2013

Just because somebody doesn't agree with my theory, doesn't mean they have to throw me to the replacement theology room, I put Jews above myself in every corner of my life, I bet I do more for Jews than anyone you have ever met.

I treat them as if I were a slave to them, and I do not believe I replace a single one of them.

But people disagree and then they call me a replacement theorist.

That's just not what I believe and its very offensive for somebody to say that to me.

It's down right low, and dirty.

Messianic Jewboy · Sep 25, 2013

HannibalFlavius said:
And what about Isaac?

Am I also of the seed of Isaac?

I am told that I am.

Unless you were circumcised according to Gen 17.

An Israelite in the flesh is one that is circumcised [IN THE FLESH] according to Gen 17...If there are no [fleshly] Israelites then there can be no promise of Messiah to Israel [who have Not Yet come to BELIEF IN Messiah Yeshua BY FAITH].

Gxg (G²) · Sep 25, 2013

mpossoff said:
Gentiles become 'the children of Abraham by faith', this doesn't mean that Gentiles become Israelites or spiritual Israelites. Even not all the children of Abraham are Israelites to begin with.

2 House is salvation by works in a nutshell. The Galatians were never considered Israelites but children of Abraham.

Indeed - and with Gentiles becoming children of Abraham by faith, the context of what Paul was speaking of must be kept in mind before simply quoting any/every scripture outside of how it was originally interpreted by the early body of believers on the status of Gentiles. Gentiles NEVER had to be deemed as being a part of Ephraim/the scattered tribes in order to be acceptable before the Lord - nor did being a part of God's Israel (different from Ethnic Israel) mean that Gentiles REPLACED those who were Jews of the tribes who got scattered (even though they were all present in the NT).

And the Lord NEVER said that he wanted Gentiles to cease being Gentiles in His Body - as saying otherwise is a matter of dishonoring the Lord in His heart for Gentiles and an indicator of identity crisis where one wishes to disconnect from anything Gentile or assume that the Lord never worked explicitly with those who were Gentiles while also working in Ethnic Israel - God does not condone or promote Anti-Gentile sentiment (a form of Replacement Theology on the same level as that which is done to the Jewish people).....nor does he promote any form of Replacement Theology saying the Gentiles HAVE to become Ephraim/Israel in order to be acceptable since it will always ignore where the Hebrew people were already Ephraim/own that spot - the promises spoken to them having spiritual allusions that the apostles used FOR the Gentiles....but never assuming the prophecies were ABOUT the Gentiles.

For that is - and always will be - a matter of Gentiles envying what was given to the Children of Israel ethnically and wanting that to be for them ....thus trying to take over in dominance rather than remembering distinction.

As said best with the Messianic Jews in Gentiles in the Messianic movement: Bnei Noach or Bnei Avraham? | ... -The Rosh Pina Project (for brief excerpt):

The Two House Movement (henceforth “2-House&#8221

is based on Two House Theology: the idea that believers in Jesus constitute the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel, Ephraim. They contend that the House of Israel is made up of “Jews and Joes” – Jews from Judah & Benjamin, and Joes/Ephraimites from the Ten Tribes whose head is Joseph. Gentile believers who discover the importance of Israel realise that they are actually physically part of Israel, and can therefore observe halachah as Israelites and communally identify with Israel.
2-House can thus interpret Biblical prophecies on ‘Israel’ as directly applying to both Jews and “Ephraimites”. The 2-House “Israel” does not directly replace the Jewish nation as the “Israel” of Christian supercessionism does, but it does radically re-write Jewish history and Biblical theology to fit a narrative in which the Ten Lost Tribes somehow maintain an Israelite identity. (N.B. we should also realise that exotic ideas about “Ten Lost Tribes” are also present within Orthodox Judaism.)

....firstly we know that the ekklesia – the community of those saved by trusting in Moshiach - is made up of Jew and Gentile (Colossians 3:11):

Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

Whilst we know the Jews who believe in Yeshua belong to the House of Israel, what of the Gentiles? We know that Messianic Jews are both physically and spiritually descendants of Abraham, but what of those who are not physical descendants of Abraham? Are they still sons of Abraham in a special, spiritual sense?

We read in Romans 4:9-12:

Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

In other words, all believers in the Jewish Messiah Yeshua haMashiach are bnei Avraham - sons of Abraham – through emuna (faith). ..................Bnei Avraham are encouraged to share their physical blessings with Jews, as the bnei Avraham share in the Jews’ spiritual blessings (Romans 15:27). Indeed, if you read Romans 11, you see how God intended the bnei Avraham – Jewish and Gentile followers of Yeshua – to complement each other in a chain reaction leading to the full and final geula: the redemption of the world.
Paul writes (Romans 11:13-16):

I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

There are no scriptures saying Gentiles CEASE being Gentiles when they join on with God's Israel - and that has been addressed multiple times. Again, there were believers from Israel (Judah, Benjamin, Issachar, Dan, etc.) - all of the tribes - that were a remnant for the Lord and the Gentiles were added into that...it was not a matter of the Gentiles having to either enter into Judah or Israel - for you're simply made a PART of God's people.

Gene Shlomovich noted it best:

If people wish to push the extremes in Two-House, so be it - it's not allowed on the boards anyhow - but it is unfortunate.

Gxg (G²) · Sep 25, 2013

mpossoff said:
. Even not all the children of Abraham are Israelites to begin with..

Yep - and starting with others, from Jethro the Midianite to Job to Noah and several others, being a child of the Lord/part of His Body was never regulated to being identified solely with the 12 tribes. Going past what the scripture says on that is unfortunate...

HannibalFlavius · Sep 25, 2013

Gxg (G²);64199246 said:
Indeed - and with Gentiles becoming children of Abraham by faith, the context of what Paul was speaking of must be kept in mind before simply quoting any/every scripture outside of how it was originally interpreted by the early body of believers on the status of Gentiles. Gentiles NEVER had to be deemed as being a part of Ephraim/the scattered tribes in order to be acceptable before the Lord - nor did being a part of God's Israel (different from Ethnic Israel) mean that Gentiles REPLACED those who were Jews of the tribes who got scattered (even though they were all present in the NT).

And the Lord NEVER said that he wanted Gentiles to cease being Gentiles in His Body - as saying otherwise is a matter of dishonoring the Lord in His heart for Gentiles and an indicator of identity crisis where one wishes to disconnect from anything Gentile or assume that the Lord never worked explicitly with those who were Gentiles while also working in Ethnic Israel - God does not condone or promote Anti-Gentile sentiment (a form of Replacement Theology on the same level as that which is done to the Jewish people).....nor does he promote any form of Replacement Theology saying the Gentiles HAVE to become Ephraim/Israel in order to be acceptable since it will always ignore where the Hebrew people were already Ephraim/own that spot - the promises spoken to them having spiritual allusions that the apostles used FOR the Gentiles....but never assuming the prophecies were ABOUT the Gentiles.

For that is - and always will be - a matter of Gentiles envying what was given to the Children of Israel ethnically and wanting that to be for them ....thus trying to take over in dominance rather than remembering distinction.

As said best with the Messianic Jews in Gentiles in the Messianic movement: Bnei Noach or Bnei Avraham? | ... -The Rosh Pina Project (for brief excerpt):

The Two House Movement (henceforth 2-House) is based on Two House Theology: the idea that believers in Jesus constitute the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel, Ephraim. They contend that the House of Israel is made up of Jews and Joes Jews from Judah & Benjamin, and Joes/Ephraimites from the Ten Tribes whose head is Joseph. Gentile believers who discover the importance of Israel realise that they are actually physically part of Israel, and can therefore observe halachah as Israelites and communally identify with Israel.
2-House can thus interpret Biblical prophecies on Israel as directly applying to both Jews and Ephraimites. The 2-House Israel does not directly replace the Jewish nation as the Israel of Christian supercessionism does, but it does radically re-write Jewish history and Biblical theology to fit a narrative in which the Ten Lost Tribes somehow maintain an Israelite identity. (N.B. we should also realise that exotic ideas about Ten Lost Tribes are also present within Orthodox Judaism.)

....firstly we know that the ekklesia  the community of those saved by trusting in Moshiach - is made up of Jew and Gentile (Colossians 3:11):

Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

Whilst we know the Jews who believe in Yeshua belong to the House of Israel, what of the Gentiles? We know that Messianic Jews are both physically and spiritually descendants of Abraham, but what of those who are not physical descendants of Abraham? Are they still sons of Abraham in a special, spiritual sense?

We read in Romans 4:9-12:

Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abrahams faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

In other words, all believers in the Jewish Messiah Yeshua haMashiach are bnei Avraham - sons of Abraham through emuna (faith). ..................Bnei Avraham are encouraged to share their physical blessings with Jews, as the bnei Avraham share in the Jews spiritual blessings (Romans 15:27). Indeed, if you read Romans 11, you see how God intended the bnei Avraham  Jewish and Gentile followers of Yeshua to complement each other in a chain reaction leading to the full and final geula: the redemption of the world.
Paul writes (Romans 11:13-16):

I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

There are no scriptures saying Gentiles CEASE being Gentiles when they join on with God's Israel - and that has been addressed multiple times. Again, there were believers from Israel (Judah, Benjamin, Issachar, Dan, etc.) - all of the tribes - that were a remnant for the Lord and the Gentiles were added into that...it was not a matter of the Gentiles having to either enter into Judah or Israel - for you're simply made a PART of God's people.

Gene Shlomovich noted it best:

Enlightened: Real stories of former One Law and Two House believers

Are Christians/Gentile believers spiritual Jews or Israelites? Part I << Daily Minyan

Are Christians/Gentile believers spiritual Jews or Israelites? Part II << Daily Minyan

If people wish to push the extremes in Two-House, so be it - it's not allowed on the boards anyhow - but it is unfortunate.

I don't suppose you think this is talking about gentiles either do you?

20"Then they shall bring all your brethren from all the nations as a grain offering to the LORD, on horses, in chariots, in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem," says the LORD, "just as the sons of Israel bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD. 21"I will also take some of them for priests and for Levites," says the LORD. http://biblehub.com/isaiah/66-22.htm

HannibalFlavius · Sep 25, 2013

Gxg (G²) · Sep 25, 2013

HannibalFlavius said:
I don't suppose you think this is talking about gentiles either do you?

20"Then they shall bring all your brethren from all the nations as a grain offering to the LORD, on horses, in chariots, in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem," says the LORD, "just as the sons of Israel bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD. 21"I will also take some of them for priests and for Levites," says the LORD.

Already addressed that - as have several others when it comes to the context divorced when you tried to quote it outside of its setting.

One cannot simply quote scriptures and avoid context, H.

Gxg (G²) · Sep 25, 2013

HannibalFlavius said:
When we gentiles come into the inheritance promised, what are names BETTER than sons and daughters?

Is the Sabbath for a gentile to keep?

Salvation for Others

1 This is what the LORD says: "Maintain justice and do what is right, for my salvation is close at hand and my righteousness will soon be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man who does this, the man who holds it fast, who keeps the Sabbath without desecrating it, and keeps his hand from doing any evil." 3 Let no foreigner who has bound himself to the LORD say, "The LORD will surely exclude me from his people." And let not any eunuch complain, "I am only a dry tree." 4 For this is what the LORD says: "To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant-- 5 to them I will give within my temple and its walls a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that will not be cut off. 6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD to serve him, to love the name of the LORD, and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant-- 7 these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations." 8 The Sovereign LORD declares-- he who gathers the exiles of Israel: "I will gather still others to them besides those already gathered."

Has zero to do at any point with showing where Gentiles and Jews were expected to live exactly the same in order to be acceptable to the Lord.

This is a basic in MJism and one of the things noted when it comes to the errors of Two-House (which you are advocating).

With Sabbath, there have been other good places for discussion where the issue has occurred before - as seen in Guidance on Sabbath arguments , Gods Sabbath Day and Sabbath: What Do You Personally Do and How Do You Observe It?
From the OT perspective, Exodus 12:48 says that circumcision is optional for even a Sojourner living in Israel (much less a non-Jew living in Georgia or wherever other Non-Jews are). Exodus 31:13 says the Sabbath is a sign between Israel and God (not a universal command).

"The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between Me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and theearth, and on the seventh day He abstained from work and rested." ---Exod. 31:16, 17.

"Also I gave them My Sabbaths as a sign between us, so they would know that I the Lord made them holy [i.e., separated them, set them apart].---Ezek. 20:12. ( #168 )

The sanctification (or separation) of the seventh day was a sign of Israel's sanctification or separation from all other people. It was the distinguishing mark par excellence of the Jew. Much harm is done, however, when the sign and the thing signified are not distinguished. When Israel mistook form for reality, the prophets declared that God detested their Sabbath celebrations (Isa. 1:14; Amos 5:21). In post exilic Judaism there was a tendency to glorify the Sabbath day while neglecting what the Sabbath was supposed to represent.

Sabbath was a sign between God and Israel (the Jewish people). In our time, Messianic Gentiles who keep the Sabbath are joining with Israel in a special observance that is actually between God and Israel - and there's nothing wrong with that seeing how amazing the Sabbath is, how it has blessed others and how Gentiles can be a part of that within the Body of Messiah. In many ways, the Sabbath is like a ring a man gives his wife - as a ring is a sign between a man and woman, so is Sabbath between God and Israel. It is Israel’s sign of covenant with God.

When the Lord said "It is Holy for You" , holy here is not an adjective. Rather, it is a a noun (kodesh) - for Sabbath is a holy thing. ...but what should be noted is the “for you” part...for Sabbath is not holy for everyone since it is holy for Israel (the Jewish people). By themselves, Saturdays are not holy (and as it is, it is TRADITIONALLY assumed Sabbath was always on that day - even though there's no concrete proof and Sabbath in the OT often fell on days that were not on Saturday). For Paul and the Jewish apostles, when they taught Gentiles in Messiah freedom from the Jewish Sabbath, they did not mean that Sabbath was nullified for Jews. Many believers have misunderstood this and turned their own non-obligation to Sabbath as if Sabbath is done away with - while the “Sabbath is universally commanded” school of thought has misunderstood this in the fact that they have misused Genesis to pretend a universal command and they ignore completely the “holy for you” saying in Exodus 31 (and alternatively, making up notions being Israelites by faith to claim they also have this obligation).

And for other scriptures on the matter,

Isaiah 56:6-7
New International Version (NIV)

6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD
to minister to him,
to love the name of the LORD,
and to be his servants,
all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it
and who hold fast to my covenant—
7 these I will bring to my holy mountain
and give them joy in my house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house will be called
a house of prayer for all nations.”

Click to expand...

Many feel that Isaiah 56 has two interpretations. (1) This is the Age to Come and reflects what the law for the nations will be then...or (2) This was about the Persian period (539-334 BCE) when Isaiah 56 was written and was about the situation of Gentiles in Jerusalem at that time.

The context of Isaiah 56 already has in mind what the Law said when it came to Sabbath being something optional for Gentiles - and many Gentiles in that time were being persecuted by other Hebrews for their desire to do so while those same Hebrews were holding onto false Gods. The Lord made clear that even Gentiles could be included amongst those who love him...for whereas the other Hebrews were often defiling the Sabbath with idolatry/contempt (despite what the Lord had called them to do), at least Gentiles not even required to do so showed concern for it and were blessed as a result of their desire to walk in it.

It's really a preview of what the Lord intended when he desired to show how his blessing was not to be restricted to one favored people ( Malachi 1:11 , John 4:21 John 4:23 , 1 Timothy 2:8 ).

The foreigner who bound themselves is akin to what is noted in Numbers 18:4/Numbers 18:7 when it comes to those who are "Proselytes." Proselytes from the Gentiles were not admitted to the same privileges as native Israelites. Additionally, Eunuchs were chamberlains over harems, or court ministers in general. They were not admissible into the congregation of Israel ( Deuteronomy 23:1-3 ). But in regards to the new work of the Lord when it came to the Gospel, the eunuch and stranger should be released from religious and civil disabilities. For the Lord welcomes all believers, without distinction of persons, under the new economy ( Acts 10:34/Acts 10:35 ).

John Gill's Commentary says it best:

It is here promised that multitudes of the Gentiles shall come to the church, not only that the few who come dropping in shall be made welcome, but that great numbers shall come in, and the door be thrown open to them: My house shall be called a house of prayer for all people. The temple was then God's house, and to that Christ applies these words (Matthew 21:13), but with an eye to it as a type of the gospel church, Hebrews 9:8,9. For Christ calls it his house, Hebrews 3:6. Now concerning this house it is promised, (1.) That it shall not be a house of sacrifice, but a house of prayer. The religious meetings of God's people shall be meetings for prayer, in which they shall join together, as a token of their united faith and mutual love. (2.) That it shall be a house of prayer, not for the people of the Jews only, but for all people. This was fulfilled when Peter was made, not only to perceive it himself, but to tell it to the world, that in every nation he that fears God and works righteousness is accepted of him, Acts 10:35. It had been declared again and again that the stranger that comes nigh shall be put to death, but Gentiles shall now be looked upon no longer as strangers and foreigners, Ephesians 2:19. And it appears by Solomon's prayer, at the dedication of the temple, both that it was primarily intended for a house of prayer and that strangers should be welcome to it, 1 Kings 8:30,41,43. And it is intimated here (Isaiah 56:8) that when the Gentiles are called in they shall be incorporated into one body with the Jews, that (as Christ says, John 10:16) there may be one fold and one Shepherd; for, [1.] God will gather the outcasts of Israel. Many of the Jews that had by their unbelief cast themselves out shall by faith be brought in again, a remnant according to the election of grace, Romans 11:5. Christ came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15:24), to gather their outcasts (Psalms 147:2), to restore their preserved (Isaiah 49:6), and to be their glory, Luke 2:32. [2.] He will gather others also to him, besides his own outcasts that are gathered to him. Or, though some of the Gentiles have come over now and then into the church, that shall not serve (as some may think) to answer the extent of these promises; no, there are still more and more to be brought in: "I will gather others to him besides these; these are but the first-fruits in comparison with the harvest that shall be gathered for Christ in the nations of the earth, when the fulness of the Gentiles shall come in." Note, The church is a growing body: when some are gathered to it we may still hope there shall be more, till the mystical body be completed. Other sheep I have.

__________________

HannibalFlavius · Sep 25, 2013

Gxg (G²);64199359 said:
Has zero to do at any point with showing where Gentiles and Jews were expected to live exactly the same in order to be acceptable to the Lord.

Who is making the claim that gentiles and Jews should live exactly alike?

Gxg (G²) · Sep 25, 2013

David Ben Yosef said:
You noticed that too? How can a Hebrew Roots/Two House adherent come to the MJ forum donning a Messianic faith icon, and teach replacement theology? Doesn't that break just about every rule layed out in the SOP?

Well...

It is unfortunate - and yet the reality is that it is something which can easily be stepped into when it comes to context being off.

Replacement theology has a variety of forms - and many are used to seeing things in one variation.

But saying Gentiles are adopted into Israel doesn't mean they are now seen as Ephraim and HAVE to be seen as Ephraim/the "Lost Tribes" to be acceptable - as that's simply another variation on what is said in other parts of Two House who say the Gentiles either HAVE been Israelites along collectively (via genetics) - the purpose behind prophecies in Hosea spoken in reference to them (in their minds)- or that they are now Israelites due to their adoption into the Body (as children of faith) and thus CANNOT identify as Gentiles anymore...alongside having to be seen as a part of Israel in order to be acceptable to the Lord (which truly is a matter of salvation by works - not seeing God's grace and appreciating His mercy/heart for Gentiles and working with the Gentiles as they are even when they are adopted).

Gentiles who are accepted in by faith into God's Body and seen as Gentiles - sons and daughters of the Father just as the Jews are - that is a key concept easy to forget when it comes to serving Him. Jew and Gentile, One in Messiah.....but in the identity movement, things tend to evolve. It used to be a matter of Gentiles saying within much of Two House that only they had claim to the Lost Tribes of Israel - leading to competition in MJ fellowships/pushing Jews out in the name of them being more followers of the Lord.

But others resisted that and noted repeatedly that Gentiles are adopted into God's body by Faith - and thus the language for others shifted. The concept of "adoption" was noted....but then, rather than use "replacement" in a conscious/active sense with teaching, adoption was seen as another means of doing the same. For now, it's assumed Gentiles are adopted into God's Body (true ) - but then are now having to be seen as Ephraim .....slipping in the SAME teachings which were done in the extremes of Two-House before when claiming Gentiles had to be collectively be identified with the "Lost Tribes"/promises to them ....while still making room to say "Well, there are still Ethnic Hebrews who are of the Lost Tribes so we don't necessarily replace them - we're just seen like them as Ephraim!!!".

That goes along with many of the other comments given which really do displace Jewish people like claiming NO ONE of Ephraim or the "Lost Tribes" was ever found - a FLAT error since they were collectively together in the NT (even though much of the 10 scattered tribes is still mystery in their fullness and has yet to come back in fullness). And other comments come up such as "God cursed Ephraim!!!" - a form of dehumanizing Jews of that group who were present in the NT and NOT cursed since they followed the Lord....and thankfully, sevengreenbeans addressed that in #69. Many would call that out for what it is when it comes to anti-Semitism (even if one were to do so claiming "Well, the Gentiles who are Christianity based - they're cursed Ephraim!!!".....another error).

It's the same dynamics occurring that have before - but the language tends to shift - and many do not even realize it.

Are Gentiles Now a Chosen Royal Priesthood?

Are gentiles the new chosen race, the New Royal Priesthood?

Yes

no

Only gentiles considered to be of the ten tribes

God will make his promise good to the lost ten tribes at a later date.

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