POLL: Darby and M MacDonald and Pre trib

Was Darby's use of M MacDonalds dream, actually a hoax set up by post trbbers

  • no, it happened and it is a pre trib dream/vision

  • no, it happened and it is a post trib dream/vision

  • not sure, never looked into it

  • yes, no dream at all. it is all fiction

  • yes. notible post tribbers have wholly invented it to discredit pre trib theology


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T

Time Watcher

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I think that is a good plan and exactly what I would do

You need to be a berean .... always check out every issue .... all in the light of the scriptures

If you do not have an extensive knowledge of scripture you can get it eventually

I began years ago with the intent to disprove that the Bible was what it claimed to be ..... and ended up convinced that it is .... no doubt
 
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zeke37

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I'm going to be looking at Darby and McDonald through as many unbiased sources as I can find. I didn't know anything past the "Darby started the pre-trib doctrine" so I need to learn more.
apparently,so do I
:thumbsup:

but remember folks, this is NOT a debate thread for pre vs post
u can start one for debate, or continue the plethora that already exist
 
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bibletruth469

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Time Watcher said:
I think that is a good plan and exactly what I would do

You need to be a berean .... always check out every issue .... all in the light of the scriptures

If you do not have an extensive knowledge of scripture you can get it eventually

I began years ago with the intent to disprove that the Bible was what it claimed to be ..... and ended up convinced that it is .... no doubt

I think it is very important to check out things in the light of scripture. I just think that in this particular case , we are speaking about the lies of satan ( according to what i have read so far on this OP) . There could be many wolves in sheep's clothing out there. These false teachers could lead some people astray. I am not talking about losing Salvation . I am talking about people who may believe a lie and put their faith in a person instead of faith in Jesus Christ. This can be especially dangerous for a new Christian . Unfortunately , some false teachers may say some truth, but will mingle that truth with falsehoods . This is especially dangerous ,

There are many great teachers out there that teach the literal interpretation of the bible . Yes, everything has to be proven right according to the scripture. One must search what the teacher says to see if its true according to what the bible says. Yes, it is very important to be a good berean. Everyone should do that!









I
 
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Biblewriter

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I'm going to be looking at Darby and McDonald through as many unbiased sources as I can find. I didn't know anything past the "Darby started the pre-trib doctrine" so I need to learn more.

Instead of looking through "unbiased sources," try actually reading what Darby and McDonald actually said. You can find most of it Darby's work online at:
Stem Publishing

You will see that he indeed wrote openly about his visit to McDonald's church, and that he condemned as Satanic. You will also see that he condemned women taking any part in church ministry, and that he condemned putting any faith whatsoever in alleged "visions."

If you also actually read the alleged McDonald "vision," you will see that it included only a partial rapture, altogether different from what Darby taught.
 
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B

Bible2

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Biblewriter said in post 18:

As to your claim that the rapture cannot be until after the tribulation because the elect are gathered after the tribulation, this is an invalid argument because the scriptures twice call Israel God's elect.

Then do you agree that Israel can be gathered from heaven (Matthew 24:31)? It can, because the church is the elect (Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:2), and the church is Israel. For all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).
 
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B

Bible2

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Time Watcher said in post 20:

B2 is an MSOG teacher who tells that Revelation 12 is all about his "church" [the woman] affiliations who claim to be Israel in the tribulation period

Actually, there's no affiliation with the MSOG, only with what the Bible itself shows.

Also, no claim has been made that the woman in Revelation 12 represents any particular denomination in the church, for she represents the church in general: I.e. all true believers in all denominations in the church.

Time Watcher said in post 20:

B2 must thereby refute a pre-tribulation "rapture" in order to make his [her] theology stand ....

Note that only "his" applies, and that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible itself makes clear that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).
 
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zeke37

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here is a snipppit from Dispensationalism

it's a long expose, but here is the Darby/MacDonald hoax etc part



This line of analysis mirrors Darby himself, who claimed that the doctrine [of the pre- Tribulational rapture] “virtually jumped out of the pages of Scripture once he accepted and consistently maintained the distinction between Israel and the Church.”<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [55]<!--[endif]--> He writes: It is this conviction, that the Church is properly heavenly in its calling and relationship with Christ, forming no part of the course of events of the earth, which makes its rapture so simple and clear; and on the other hand, it shows how the denial of its rapture brings down the Church to an earthly position, and destroys its whole spiritual character and position. Prophecy does not relate to heaven. The Christian’s hope is not a prophetic subject at all.<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [56]<!--[endif]--> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Kraus duly notes the prior importance of the ecclesiology issue for Darby, noting that, “It was not until several years after his break with the Anglican Church in 1827 that he became specifically interested in prophecy. His interest in this subject is at least second handedly traceable to the Albury Conferences, out of which grew the Irvingite movement.”<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [57]<!--[endif]--> Kraus also quotes James Bear as indicating that the Albury Conferences, and the subsequent Powerscourt House conferences, were the traceable location and genesis of the Dispensational distinctives, where the “truths of the distinctive nature of the Church and the ‘rapture’ were discovered, which led to the development of a new complex of ideas which we know today as ‘Dispensationalism.’”<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [58]<!--[endif]--> When the significance of Darby’s trips to Canada in 1859, 1864, and 1866, and his trips to the United States in 1870, 1872-1873, and 1874 are duly noted,<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [59]<!--[endif]--> it is clear that Kraus is correct in demonstrating that all of the key figures in American Dispensational thought were merely repristinating and further developing and systematizing the basic ecclesiology and eschatology of Darby himself: Even a casual review of these outlines and explanations makes it clear that the American writers were influenced by Darby. Their outlines are essentially repetitions; at best they are variations on a theme. The differences in the outlines grow out of the relative emphasis placed on the definition of a dispensation as a historical or theological concept. In each case a dispensation is a combination of both elements, the theological superimposed upon the historical. However, dispensationalism is basically theological rather than historical in its orientation. It is not primarily an attempt to trace the rise and fall of political, social, or religious movements in the passage of time. It is, rather, a philosophy of history–an attempt to interpret history according to a theological norm. Thus the differences which appear in the outlines are not essential, but are merely individual applications of the accepted dispensational norm. When this point is clearly recognized it is immediately apparent what Darby’s relation is to those who follow. He expounded the norm.<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [60]<!--[endif]--> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> These American writers included S. H. Cox (1793-1880), Henry M. Parsons (1828-1913), the Christian Zionist William E. Blackstone (1841-1935), A. J. Frost, James Hall Brookes (1830-1897) who is termed by Kraus the “outstanding leader of the Bible conference movement from 1875 to the time of his death,”<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [61]<!--[endif]--> and G. Campbell Morgan (1864-1945).<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [62]<!--[endif]--> These names were accompanied by pulpit presences influenced by Darbyism which included A. J. Gordon at the Clarendon Street Baptist Church in Boston; D. L. Moody in Chicago; and of course, Brookes himself at the Walnut Street Presbyterian Church in St. Louis.<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [63]<!--[endif]--> Kraus notes the significance as well, of the early division in the Plymouth Brethren movement over Darby’s Dispensational distinctives, coming chiefly from Benjamin Wills Newton (1805-1898) and Samuel Prideaux Tregelles (1813-1875), who became increasingly marginalized in Darby’s takeover of the mainstream of the movement, and in the latter’s exportation of the distinctives to a waiting American audience: Early in the Brethren movement two viewpoints concerning eschatology emerged. As Darby developed his dispensational concepts he met with opposition within his own group. Benjamin Wills Newton (1805-1898) and the great textual scholar, Samuel Prideaux Tregelles (1813-1875), disagreed with his dispensational distinctions. George Muller who had joined the Plymouth Brethren in 1830 also felt, as he told Robert Cameron, that he had to make a choice between Mr. Darby and the Bible, and that he had chosen the Bible. But it was the “exclusive Brethren” under the leadership of Darby that made the initial contacts in America [emphasis mine]. Probably the two most popular writers, and the widest read by American ministers, were William Trotter and Charles Henry Macintosh, although the writings of William Kelly and Darby also circulated widely. Until about 1880 the literature of Tregelles, Newton, and George Muller had very little influence upon the Bible conference movement; and when it did become known it did not turn the tide of dispensationalism [emphasis mine].<!--[if !supportFootnotes]-->[64]<!--[endif]--> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Thus, a historical line of development in the development and promulgation of Dispensational Distinctives may legitimately be drawn from Darby and his “exclusive Brethren” to his most distinguished 19th century exponents, including Brookes, Trotter, Macintosh, and Blackstone; subsequently to C. I. Scofield and his most significant editor for his early 20th century Scofield Reference Bible, Arno C. Gaebelein;<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [65]<!--[endif]-->
 
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zeke37

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here is a snipppit from Dispensationalism

it's a long expose, but here is the Darby/MacDonald hoax etc part



This line of analysis mirrors Darby himself, who claimed that the doctrine [of the pre- Tribulational rapture] “virtually jumped out of the pages of Scripture once he accepted and consistently maintained the distinction between Israel and the Church.”<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [55]<!--[endif]--> He writes: It is this conviction, that the Church is properly heavenly in its calling and relationship with Christ, forming no part of the course of events of the earth, which makes its rapture so simple and clear; and on the other hand, it shows how the denial of its rapture brings down the Church to an earthly position, and destroys its whole spiritual character and position. Prophecy does not relate to heaven. The Christian’s hope is not a prophetic subject at all.<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [56]<!--[endif]--> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Kraus duly notes the prior importance of the ecclesiology issue for Darby, noting that, “It was not until several years after his break with the Anglican Church in 1827 that he became specifically interested in prophecy. His interest in this subject is at least second handedly traceable to the Albury Conferences, out of which grew the Irvingite movement.”<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [57]<!--[endif]--> Kraus also quotes James Bear as indicating that the Albury Conferences, and the subsequent Powerscourt House conferences, were the traceable location and genesis of the Dispensational distinctives, where the “truths of the distinctive nature of the Church and the ‘rapture’ were discovered, which led to the development of a new complex of ideas which we know today as ‘Dispensationalism.’”<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [58]<!--[endif]--> When the significance of Darby’s trips to Canada in 1859, 1864, and 1866, and his trips to the United States in 1870, 1872-1873, and 1874 are duly noted,<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [59]<!--[endif]--> it is clear that Kraus is correct in demonstrating that all of the key figures in American Dispensational thought were merely repristinating and further developing and systematizing the basic ecclesiology and eschatology of Darby himself: Even a casual review of these outlines and explanations makes it clear that the American writers were influenced by Darby. Their outlines are essentially repetitions; at best they are variations on a theme. The differences in the outlines grow out of the relative emphasis placed on the definition of a dispensation as a historical or theological concept. In each case a dispensation is a combination of both elements, the theological superimposed upon the historical. However, dispensationalism is basically theological rather than historical in its orientation. It is not primarily an attempt to trace the rise and fall of political, social, or religious movements in the passage of time. It is, rather, a philosophy of history–an attempt to interpret history according to a theological norm. Thus the differences which appear in the outlines are not essential, but are merely individual applications of the accepted dispensational norm. When this point is clearly recognized it is immediately apparent what Darby’s relation is to those who follow. He expounded the norm.<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [60]<!--[endif]--> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> These American writers included S. H. Cox (1793-1880), Henry M. Parsons (1828-1913), the Christian Zionist William E. Blackstone (1841-1935), A. J. Frost, James Hall Brookes (1830-1897) who is termed by Kraus the “outstanding leader of the Bible conference movement from 1875 to the time of his death,”<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [61]<!--[endif]--> and G. Campbell Morgan (1864-1945).<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [62]<!--[endif]--> These names were accompanied by pulpit presences influenced by Darbyism which included A. J. Gordon at the Clarendon Street Baptist Church in Boston; D. L. Moody in Chicago; and of course, Brookes himself at the Walnut Street Presbyterian Church in St. Louis.<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [63]<!--[endif]--> Kraus notes the significance as well, of the early division in the Plymouth Brethren movement over Darby’s Dispensational distinctives, coming chiefly from Benjamin Wills Newton (1805-1898) and Samuel Prideaux Tregelles (1813-1875), who became increasingly marginalized in Darby’s takeover of the mainstream of the movement, and in the latter’s exportation of the distinctives to a waiting American audience: Early in the Brethren movement two viewpoints concerning eschatology emerged. As Darby developed his dispensational concepts he met with opposition within his own group. Benjamin Wills Newton (1805-1898) and the great textual scholar, Samuel Prideaux Tregelles (1813-1875), disagreed with his dispensational distinctions. George Muller who had joined the Plymouth Brethren in 1830 also felt, as he told Robert Cameron, that he had to make a choice between Mr. Darby and the Bible, and that he had chosen the Bible. But it was the “exclusive Brethren” under the leadership of Darby that made the initial contacts in America [emphasis mine]. Probably the two most popular writers, and the widest read by American ministers, were William Trotter and Charles Henry Macintosh, although the writings of William Kelly and Darby also circulated widely. Until about 1880 the literature of Tregelles, Newton, and George Muller had very little influence upon the Bible conference movement; and when it did become known it did not turn the tide of dispensationalism [emphasis mine].<!--[if !supportFootnotes]-->[64]<!--[endif]--> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Thus, a historical line of development in the development and promulgation of Dispensational Distinctives may legitimately be drawn from Darby and his “exclusive Brethren” to his most distinguished 19th century exponents, including Brookes, Trotter, Macintosh, and Blackstone; subsequently to C. I. Scofield and his most significant editor for his early 20th century Scofield Reference Bible, Arno C. Gaebelein;<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [65]<!--[endif]-->
 
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zeke37

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later to the more recent responsible refinements of the Dispensational system through the work of Lewis Sperry Chafer, Charles Ryrie, and John Walvoord; and finally to the Sensational Dispensationalism of Hal Lindsey and the Late Great Planet Earth in 1970, whose 18 million copies in sales popularized a position whose lineage is traceable to the Irishman Darby and his disenchantment with the Anglican communion. In all of these writers, the futuristic 70th week of Daniel, the two-stage coming of Christ, and the secret, “at any moment” pre-Tribulational Rapture predominate, in the interest of maintaining the Church/Israel dichotomy. But is there any conclusive historical evidence for how or where Darby received his inspiration for the doctrine of the pre-Tribulational Rapture of the Church? According to Weber, “historians are still trying to determine how or where Darby got it.”<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [66]<!--[endif]--> Darby’s opponent, Tregelles, charged that the idea originated in about 1832 during an ecstatic utterance in the congregation of Edward Irving, where the charismatic gifts of the Spirit were alleged to have been poured out.<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [67]<!--[endif]--> Weber remarks that: A newer though still not totally convincing view contends that the doctrine initially appeared in a prophetic vision of Margaret Macdonald, who was a teenager from Glasgow, Scotland, in the early part of 1830. According to some recently discovered (and confusing) manuscripts, Miss Macdonald claimed special insight into the second coming and may have even advocated a pretribulation rapture of the church. Shortly after her vision of the end, Margaret began speaking in tongues and became, along with other members of her family, one of the main attractions of a charismatic type of revival in western Scotland. Deeply disturbed by the reports of a new Pentecost, the Plymouth Brethren commissioned Darby to investigate. He arrived in the middle of 1830 and, according to his own testimony twenty-three years later, actually met and heard Miss Macdonald. According to recent theory, Darby returned home totally against the so-called outpouring of the Spirit, but borrowed Margaret Macdonald’s view of the rapture, modifying it at a number of points and fitting it into his system, without ever acknowledging his debt to her.<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [68]<!--[endif]--> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> The riposte between Dave MacPherson<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [69]<!--[endif]--> and John Walvoord is apropos here. MacPherson, in the Great Rapture Hoax, states definitively that Margaret MacDonald’s revolutionary revelation of a two-stage Second Coming came to her as she studied various Scripture passages in the spring of 1830 in Port Glasgow, Scotland. He develops this line of argument by claiming in Appendix A, entitled, “Margaret’s Revelation,” that: One of her unique thoughts was that the first stage (the Rapture) would take place before the revealing of the Antichrist–an idea that had never been heard of in Church history before she expressed it! Not long after her revelation, she wrote down her account of everything and sent handwritten copies of it to a number of Christian leaders. The Morning Watch, a leading British publication, quickly copied some of her distinctive notions. Her revelation was first published in Robert Norton’s Memoirs of James and George Macdonald, of Port Glasgow (1840), pp. 171-176. Norton published it again in The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets; In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861), pp. 15-18.<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [70]<!--[endif]--><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> MacPherson then reproduces the text of Macdonald’s “two-stage revelation” with numbered lines of 1-117 for easy reference.<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [71]<!--[endif]--> He divides the 117 line revelation into three (3) basic divisions entitled, 1) Preparation for the Rapture [lines 1-60]; 2) The Revealing of Antichrist [lines 60-87]; and 3) General Exhortations [lines 87-117].<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [72]<!--[endif]--> An extremely detailed and difficult analysis of the 117 lines follows on pages 133-180 of Hoax, where MacPherson draws certain conclusions about Darby based on a written communication of the latter allegedly penned in 1833: I trust many have been aroused since I have been here, and the Lord’s coming looked for by many, and some brought to peace. We have also some very nice scripture reading meetings, to which any of the clergy who hold the truth, have fallen in, though quite mixed, and every one at liberty to speak. It is chiefly, of course, on what may be called first principles, but I trust thorough ones practically. It is a remarkable circumstance, that a dear young lady, who was instrumental in setting them afloat for me, and at several members of whose family they were held–who had been only called about a year by the Lord, but was very decided ever since–was suddenly called away the other day in the midst of it all. The people in Limerick felt it a good deal, and I trust it may be the instrument of good to many. The whole family, which was a principal one here, had been all thoroughly worldly a year ago, and herself and her sister at the head of all idleness. [MacPherson quoting Darby in Letters, vol. 1, p. 15)<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [73]<!--[endif]--> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> MacPherson then concludes that: Why did Darby admit such things about a young Irish lady (written three years after Margaret’s revelation) and not give Margaret any credit for her prior Rapture? Surely he must have known that sooner or later someone could discover the real Pre-Trib origin. The answer, as I see it, is that Darby was a well-read, knowledgeable opportunist, one who had studied to be a lawyer. He had been in Margaret’s home in mid-1830 and knew that her distinctive views had been picked up quickly by The Morning Watch and also by other Irvingites and his own Plymouth Brethren. He knew that, in time, memories and personalities would fade away and that he could well be regarded as the Pre-Trib Rapture’s great systematizer and promoter, if not immediately its originator.<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [74]<!--[endif]--> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> In appendix C of Hoax, MacPherson provides the complete text of a letter he penned to Dr. Robert H. Gundry of Westmont College in Santa Barbara, California. Gundry, after receiving the letter dated January 21, 1980, allegedly changed his book The Church and the Tribulation, deleting his previous support for Edward Irving as the pre-Tribulation Rapture originator, and substituting MacPherson’s evidence about Margaret Macdonald as the historical explanation for the doctrine’s origin. The corrected text appeared in Gundry’s sixth printing in December of 1980.<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [75]<!--[endif]--> In his letter to Gundry, MacPherson continues his conclusions about Darby: No one disputes the fact that modern Pre-Tribism can be traced back to John Darby. In the Collected Writings of J. N. Darby, Vol. II, p. 102, Darby claimed in an 1850 work of his that II Thessalonians 2: 1-2 was the passage that gave him a seal of approval for believing in Pre-Trib. His statement follows: “It is this passage which, twenty years ago, made me understand the rapture of the saints before–perhaps a considerable time before–the day of the Lord (that is before the judgment of the living.” Darby, unlike many of today’s Pre-Tribs, rightly held that the day of the Lord starts at the end of the Tribulation. Note that in the early development of his Pre-Tribism Darby didn’t dogmatically see a big gap between the Rapture and the end of the Tribulation; he did say “considerable” (whatever that meant) but tied in that word with “perhaps.” <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Note also the reference to “twenty years ago”–which brings us back to 1830. But was he figuring precisely or only approximately? Where, in his 1830 writings, did he give evidence of such a doctrinal change-over? In the Dec 1830 Christian Herald Darby’s article entitled, “On ‘Days’ Signifying ‘Years’ in Prophetic Language,” was a defense of historicism and the year-day theory, with not even a hint of a two-stage coming. It should be remembered that Margaret was teaching a two-stage coming in the spring and summer of 1830, that the Irvingite journal I’ve already mentioned printed the same concept in its Sept 1830 issue, and that the Plymouth Brethren were preaching a two-stage coming in 1831. Existing evidence indicates that Darby was clearly a Post-Trib prior to 1830 (as he indicated in his 1850 work), the earliest moment he could have derived it from anyone else (and I’m taking all available documentation into consideration) was when he visited Margaret in her home in Scotland in the middle of 1830.<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [76]<!--[endif]--> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Walvoord evaluates the MacPherson evidence in The Rapture Question<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [77]<!--[endif]--> and The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation <!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [78]<!--[endif]--> citing five specific reasons for casting aspersion on the historical accuracy and motives of some of MacPherson’s sources, not to mention the latter’s conclusions that Darby definitively received any of his ideas or positions on the Rapture from Margaret Macdonald. His points are cogently argued, and underscore Weber’s description of the manuscripts in question as “confusing.”<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [79]<!--[endif]--> What is more revealing, however, than Walvoord’s well crafted response to MacPherson, are the former’s admissions that: “One of the strongest arguments of the posttribulational view is the claim that pretribulationism is a new doctrine. . . . He [Alexander Reese, The Approaching Advent of Christ, pp. 30-33] went on to trace the rise of pretribulationism. “About 1830, however, a new school arose within the fold of Pre-millennialism that sought to overthrow what, since the Apostolic Age, have been considered by all pre-millennialists as established results, and to institute in their place a series of doctrines that had never been heard of before. The school I refer to is that of ‘The Brethren’ or ‘Plymouth Brethren,’ founded by J. N. Darby.” . . . The assertion that pretribulationism in its modern form can be traced to some extent [emphasis mine] to Darby is supported by Darby’s own writings. In his search for premillennial truth, Darby arrived at the position that the church is a special work of God distinguished from His program for Israel. This in turn led, to the position that the Rapture is a special event for the church itself.<!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [80]<!--[endif]--> [emphasis mine] . . . The statement of Ladd [George Eldon Ladd] that pretribulationism until the nineteenth century is a half truth. Pretribulationism as it is known today is comparatively recent [emphasis mine], but the concept of imminency of the Lord’s return–which is the important point–clearly dates to the early church. <!--[if !supportFootnotes]--> [81]<!--[endif]-->
 
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better just to go to the link and read the whole thing.
it is broken up better on their website....easier to read.

it speaks directly about what u claim, so it is relevant to our conversation

I went to the article and read much of it.It is filled with historical errors, such as claiming that a future fulfillment of Daniel's seventieth week was unknown in the early church.
I have posted the proof of that error in this forum several times.

But the point here is the Darby - McDonald contention. He relies on MacPherson for his information, and I have already exposed McPherson's previous lies about Darby covering up his visit to Irving's church. assuming he has accurately represented what McPherson said,

He has now added a fiction about Darby having visited in the MacDonald home for an extended time. But he provides zero documentation for this story. He further quotes a comment by Darby about a family moving away, (one that I remembered reading, by the way,) claiming, without a particle of evidence, that it was a reference to the McDonald family.

Again, he claims that the McDonalds were in the Asbury and Powerscourt conferences, but fails to document the claim.

So do not be deceived by all the documentation he did provide. Just as he did in his original false accusation, he documented many details around his claim, but provided zero documentation for his basic claim.

A much more significant detail that he did document was that Irving published the MacDonald vision in 1850, many years after Darby supposedly picked it up.

So read a little more carefully, zeke.
 
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joeboonda

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The blessed hope (Titus 2:13) is the hope of eternal life: "In hope of eternal life" (Titus 1:2), "that blessed hope" (Titus 2:13), "the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:7), by which is meant the hope of obtaining an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Also, Jesus himself is the hope of believers (1 Timothy 1:1b), for he himself is eternal life (John 14:6), and only by believing in him can people have eternal life (John 3:36).

No Christians are hoping for the tribulation instead of Jesus' 2nd coming, even though those Christians who (rightly) hold to the post-tribulation rapture view know that the tribulation must come first (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13). For a Christian (whether male or female) who holds to the post-tribulation rapture view is like a pregnant woman nearing the end of her term. She isn't hoping for her birthing pains instead of the birth of her child, but she knows that birthing pains must come first (John 16:21-22, Isaiah 26:17-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23).
The blessed hope is both about waiting and looking for Jesus to come back for us and the transformation of our bodies to incorruptible and immortal as that happens in an instant when we meet Jesus in the air, as opposed to returning with him to the earth where he splits the Mt. of Olives with his landing. But, I've already gone off-topic, just sayin'. Peace!
 
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zeke37

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I went ti the article and read much of it.It is filled with historical errors, such as claiming that a future fulfillment of Daniel's seventieth week was unknown in the early church.
I have posted the proof of that error in this forum several times.

The effect produced on the interpretation of prophecy by the “parenthesis” doctrine of the Church as set forth by Dispensationalists is one of the clearest proofs of the novelty of that doctrine as well as of its revolutionary nature. In 1835 an article appeared in the Christian Witness, the earliest organ of the Brethren, in which the claim was made that all of the prophecies of Daniel are still unfulfilled, that they do not relate to the Church age but are to be fulfilled in the future kingdom age. At the time this article was written the view was generally held that the Christian Church or dispensation was the great theme of Old Testament prophecy. Today in Dispensational circles it is regarded as axiomatic that the Church is completely ignored by the prophets. Consequently, the prophets have a very important role in deciding the issues raised by Dispensationalism. And since the Dispensational doctrine that the Church was unknown to them was first applied to the Book of Daniel, we shall confine ourselves largely to it in testing the correctness of this method of interpreting the prophecies of the Old Testament.
But the point here is the Darby - McDonald contention. He relies on MacPherson for his information, and I have already exposed McPherson's previous lies about Darby covering up his visit to Irving's church. assuming he has accurately represented what McPherson said,
But is there any conclusive historical evidence for how or where Darby received his inspiration for the doctrine of the pre-Tribulational Rapture of the Church? According to Weber, “historians are still trying to determine how or where Darby got it. Darby’s opponent, Tregelles, charged that the idea originated in about 1832 during an ecstatic utterance in the congregation of Edward Irving, where the charismatic gifts of the Spirit were alleged to have been poured out. Weber remarks that:
A newer though still not totally convincing view contends that the doctrine initially appeared in a prophetic vision of Margaret Macdonald, who was a teenager from Glasgow, Scotland, in the early part of 1830. According to some recently discovered (and confusing) manuscripts, Miss Macdonald claimed special insight into the second coming and may have even advocated a pretribulation rapture of the church. Shortly after her vision of the end, Margaret began speaking in tongues and became, along with other members of her family, one of the main attractions of a charismatic type of revival in western Scotland. Deeply disturbed by the reports of a new Pentecost, the Plymouth Brethren commissioned Darby to investigate. He arrived in the middle of 1830 and, according to his own testimony twenty-three years later, actually met and heard Miss Macdonald. According to recent theory, Darby returned home totally against the so-called outpouring of the Spirit, but borrowed Margaret Macdonald’s view of the rapture, modifying it at a number of points and fitting it into his system, without ever acknowledging his debt to her.
He has now added a fiction about Darby having visited in the MacDonald home for an extended time. But he provides zero documentation for this story. He further quotes a comment by Darby about a family moving away, (one that I remembered reading, by the way,) claiming, without a particle of evidence, that it was a reference to the McDonald family.
did u click on the foot note links as well?
besides them, I just re-read it, and I did not find an "extended visit" mentioned

MacPherson then concludes that:
Why did Darby admit such things about a young Irish lady (written three years after Margaret’s revelation) and not give Margaret any credit for her prior Rapture? Surely he must have known that sooner or later someone could discover the real Pre-Trib origin. The answer, as I see it, is that Darby was a well-read, knowledgeable opportunist, one who had studied to be a lawyer. He had been in Margaret’s home in mid-1830 and knew that her distinctive views had been picked up quickly by The Morning Watch and also by other Irvingites and his own Plymouth Brethren. He knew that, in time, memories and personalities would fade away and that he could well be regarded as the Pre-Trib Rapture’s great systematizer and promoter, if not immediately its originator.
No one disputes the fact that modern Pre-Tribism can be traced back to John Darby. In the Collected Writings of J. N. Darby, Vol. II, p. 102, Darby claimed in an 1850 work of his that II Thessalonians 2: 1-2 was the passage that gave him a seal of approval for believing in Pre-Trib. His statement follows: “It is this passage which, twenty years ago, made me understand the rapture of the saints before–perhaps a considerable time before–the day of the Lord (that is before the judgment of the living.” Darby, unlike many of today’s Pre-Tribs, rightly held that the day of the Lord starts at the end of the Tribulation. Note that in the early development of his Pre-Tribism Darby didn’t dogmatically see a big gap between the Rapture and the end of the Tribulation; he did say “considerable” (whatever that meant) but tied in that word with “perhaps.”

Note also the reference to “twenty years ago”–which brings us back to 1830. But was he figuring precisely or only approximately? Where, in his 1830 writings, did he give evidence of such a doctrinal change-over? In the Dec 1830 Christian Herald Darby’s article entitled, “On ‘Days’ Signifying ‘Years’ in Prophetic Language,” was a defense of historicism and the year-day theory, with not even a hint of a two-stage coming. It should be remembered that Margaret was teaching a two-stage coming in the spring and summer of 1830, that the Irvingite journal I’ve already mentioned printed the same concept in its Sept 1830 issue, and that the Plymouth Brethren were preaching a two-stage coming in 1831. Existing evidence indicates that Darby was clearly a Post-Trib prior to 1830 (as he indicated in his 1850 work), the earliest moment he could have derived it from anyone else (and I’m taking all available documentation into consideration) was when he visited Margaret in her home in Scotland in the middle of 1830

so, no "extended visit" is mentioned James.
jus the original first one.


Again, he claims that the McDonalds were in the Asbury and Powerscourt conferences, but fails to document the claim.
can u copy/paste that part for me.
I cant seem to find it, but I am not saying it isn't there.

So do not be deceived by all the documentation he did provide. Just as he did in his original false accusation, he documented many details around his claim, but provided zero documentation for his basic claim.
but I did not see anything false. :confused:
I think u misread it.

A much more significant detail that he did document was that Irving published the MacDonald vision in 1850, many years after Darby supposedly picked it up.

So read a little more carefully, zeke.
he details lots of things.
like how Darby was post trib until the year of that visit
and he only claims Darby went there once,
no extended visit mentioned at all.

every point you tried to make, you did not make.
 
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The article titled &#8220;A Historical Critique of Dispensationalism, Zionism, and Daniel's Prophecy of 70 Weeks,&#8221;By Mark Dankof, Dispensationalism, begins with a long discussion of the allegation that a future fulfillment of Daniel&#8217;s seventieth week was unknown to the church before the 19th century.

Along the way Dankof quotes O. T. Allis as saying, "The effect produced on the interpretation of prophecy by the &#8220;parenthesis&#8221; doctrine of the Church as set forth by Dispensationalists is one of the clearest proofs of the novelty of that doctrine as well as of its revolutionary nature. In 1835 an article appeared in the Christian Witness, the earliest organ of the Brethren, in which the claim was made that all of the prophecies of Daniel are still unfulfilled, that they do not relate to the Church age but are to be fulfilled in the future kingdom age." The footnote gives no documentatio for this remarkable statement other than where Allis supposedly said it. But I have devoted meny years to the study of Plymouth brethren writings, and this was not the position of even one Plymouth brethren writer I have ever read.

This line of argument is finally summarized in the words:

&#8220;What are the sources, in terms of individuals and historical epochs, which enable the Dispensational theories of a parenthesis Church, a pre or mid-Tribulational Rapture, a Great Tribulation corresponding to Daniel&#8217;s 70th week, and a two stage coming of Christ, to be traced to their provable origins? The absolute answers to these questions are a matter of debate, but ongoing historical research provides some clues, the meaning of which is in dispute between adherents of the Dispensational system and its opponents.
&#8220;At a bare minimum, it can be reliably asserted that the Dispensational distinctives aforementioned are 19th century developments, a developing system of Biblical interpretation that was unknown in earlier epochs and especially in the early Church. It is true that Dispensational adherents attempt to maintain that their system is a continuation of historic premillennialism, yet Ladd maintains that, &#8216;For all practical purposes, we may consider that this movement&#8211;for dispensationalism has had such wide influence that it must be called a movement&#8211;had its source with Darby and Kelly.&#8217; Robert Cameron in 1896, had reacted with some others in the Niagara Bible Conference to some of the dispensational elements, blaming the movement completely on the Darbyists, saying that they had introduced &#8216;a theory absolutely without a single advocate in the history of the Church, from Polycarp down.&#8217;&#8221; A little further down he called it &#8220;the new, novel idea of the &#8220;parenthesis&#8221; or &#8216;gap&#8217; theory based on Daniel 9.&#8221;

This is demonstrably incorrect, As I have repeatedly posted in this forum. For Hyppolytus said:

&#8220;For after sixty-two weeks was fulfilled and after Christ has come and the Gospel has been preached in every place, times having been spun out, the end remains one week away, in which Elijah and Enoch shall be present and in its half the abomination of desolation, the Antichrist, shall appear who threatens desolation of the world. After he comes, sacrifice and drink offering, which now in every way is offered by the nations to God, shall be taken away.&#8221; (Commentary on Daniel, by Hyppolytus, book 4, 35.3. From the translation by T. C. Schmidt, available online at http://www.chronicon.net. This is believed to have been written between the years 202 and 211, and is the very oldest Christian commentary on scripture that has survived to the present day.)

Again, some pages larer, Hippolytus added:

&#8220;Just as also he spoke to Daniel, &#8220;And he shall establish a covenant with many for one week and it will be that in the half of the week he shall take away my sacrifice and drink offering,&#8221; so that the one week may be shown as divided into two, after the two witnesses will have preached for three and a half years, the Antichrist will wage war against the saints the remainder of the week and will desolate all the world so that what was spoken may be fulfilled, &#8220;And they will give the abomination of desolation one thousand two hundred ninety days. Blessed is he who endures to Christ and reaches the one thousand three hundred thirty-five days!&#8221; (Commentary on Daniel, by Hyppolytus, book 4, 50.2)

Also, around fifteen years earlier, Irenaeus wrote:

&#8220;And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: &#8216;And in the midst of the week,&#8217; he says, &#8216;the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete.&#8217;Now three years and six months constitute the half-week.&#8221; (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXV, section 4. From Volume 1 of &#8220;The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers,&#8221; edited by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, as found in its American edition edited by A. Cleveland Coxe, and as found online at Christian Classics Ethereal Library. This is believed to have been written between the years 186 and 188, and is the very oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy of any significant length which has survived to the present day.)

In this section, it is important to notice that Irenaeus was saying that the coming of Antichrist is future, and that it will be in the middle of Daniel&#8217;s seventieth week.

So the opening allegation of the document, which is developed at considerable length, is incorrect. This error, however, is somewhat excusable, because it is widely reported, even though it is incorrect. But that is the basic error made all the way through this document. He reports the words of those that say what he wants to believe, without personal knowledge of the subject.

This has led to numerous errors of sloppy scholarship, such as the very darby-like quotation, &#8220;It is this conviction, that the Church is properly heavenly in its calling and relationship with Christ, forming no part of the course of events of the earth, which makes its rapture so simple and clear; and on the other hand, it shows how the denial of its rapture brings down the Church to an earthly position, and destroys its whole spiritual character and position. Prophecy does not relate to heaven. The Christian&#8217;s hope is not a prophetic subject at all.&#8221; My initial reaction was, &#8220;yes, I remember reading that in the writings of J. N. Darby.&#8221; But when I looked up the reference given in footnote 56, it gave the source as: &#8220;Weber quotes Darby in his Collected Works, XI, 156.&#8221;

There are two problems in this citation. First, there is no series of books titled &#8220;Collected Works,&#8221; (of J. N. Darby.) The series he was apparently referring to is &#8220;The Collected Writings of J. N. Darby.&#8221; This series indeed has a volume XI, but I checked, and the alleged quotation is not on page 156 of volume XI in either edition of the Collected Writings of J. N. Darby.&#8221; There are two such editions. Individual volumes in the Moorish (original nineteenth century) edition are about 2" thick. Volumes in the Stow-Hill (twentieth century) edition are about 3/4" thick.

The next major error n the work comes in the statement, &#8220;Kraus notes the significance as well, of the early division in the Plymouth Brethren movement over Darby&#8217;s Dispensational distinctives, coming chiefly from Benjamin Wills Newton (1805-1898) and Samuel Prideaux Tregelles (1813-1875), who became increasingly marginalized in Darby&#8217;s takeover of the mainstream of the movement, and in the latter&#8217;s exportation of the distinctives to a waiting American audience:&#8221;

The division he refers to had absolutely nothing to do with Dispensational distinctives. It was initially based on ecclesiastical differences. But at that time, the division, though distinct, was not absolute. But about two years or so later, Darby&#8217;s group discovered that Newton was teaching doctrine they considered blasphemy against Christ. After that was publicized, darby, and all those who stood with him, broke completely and absolutely, not only with Newton, but with any and all who tolerated his doctrines. This is a simple matter of history, and many volumes of the group&#8217;s writings are devoted to it.

Further, Darby never &#8220;took over&#8221; the mainstream group. He indeed was a leading teacher in their midst. But as a matter of doctrine, the entire group rejected the concept of anyone having the power to &#8220;control&#8221; the group. That was, in point of fact, the ecclesiastical point of doctrine which caused Darby and his associated to separate from Newton.

Then the writer of this article begins to rely heavily on statements from Dave MacPherson, a writer who had much earlier totally discredited himself by claiming, in his book, &#8220;The incredible Cover-Up,&#8221; That Darby visited Margaret Macdonald&#8217;s church, and had covered up this fact. To prove this wholly false accusation, he documented many facts all around his central thesis, but not a single fact that directly proved it. Such documentation was simply unavailable, for it was not true. Darby did not &#8220;cover up&#8221; his visit there at all, but published an article openly writing about it, and giving his opinion that it was Satanic.

But his quotations from macPherson reveal an amazing admission, for he quotes Macpherson as saying, " Her revelation was first published in Robert Norton&#8217;s Memoirs of James and George Macdonald, of Port Glasgow (1840), pp. 171-176. Norton published it again in The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets; In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861), pp. 15-18. [70]" If the first publication of the alleged "revelation" was long after Darby was writing on the subject, Darby could not even possibly have gotten the idea from that, unless, as Macpherson alleges but cannot prove, he got it personally from her.

If the second-hand quotations of MacPherson quoted in this article are correct, he eventually admitted this was not correct, but he replaced this false accusation with a new series of accusations that are, like the first one, wholly lacking in documentation.

The first of these was reported in this article as, &#8220;It is a remarkable circumstance, that a dear young lady, who was instrumental in setting them afloat for me, and at several members of whose family they were held&#8211;who had been only called about a year by the Lord, but was very decided ever since&#8211;was suddenly called away the other day in the midst of it all. The people in Limerick felt it a good deal, and I trust it may be the instrument of good to many. The whole family, which was a principal one here, had been all thoroughly worldly a year ago, and herself and her sister at the head of all idleness. [MacPherson quoting Darby in Letters, vol. 1, p. 15) [73]&#8221; (I included the footnote number to help in locating the statement.)

Darby indeed said this, in the place indicated. But there is absolutely zero evidence that this is a reference to the MacDonald family.

He then quotes MacPhearson as saying, &#8220;Why did Darby admit such things about a young Irish lady (written three years after Margaret&#8217;s revelation) and not give Margaret any credit for her prior Rapture? Surely he must have known that sooner or later someone could discover the real Pre-Trib origin. The answer, as I see it, is that Darby was a well-read, knowledgeable opportunist, one who had studied to be a lawyer. He had been in Margaret&#8217;s home in mid-1830 and knew that her distinctive views had been picked up quickly by The Morning Watch and also by other Irvingites and his own Plymouth Brethren. He knew that, in time, memories and personalities would fade away and that he could well be regarded as the Pre-Trib Rapture&#8217;s great systematizer and promoter, if not immediately its originator. [74]&#8221; This amounts to nothing short of libel.

Next, he quotes Macpherson as saying, &#8220;Note also the reference to &#8220;twenty years ago&#8221;&#8211;which brings us back to 1830. But was he figuring precisely or only approximately? Where, in his 1830 writings, did he give evidence of such a doctrinal change-over? In the Dec 1830 Christian Herald Darby&#8217;s article entitled, &#8220;On &#8216;Days&#8217; Signifying &#8216;Years&#8217; in Prophetic Language,&#8221; was a defense of historicism and the year-day theory, with not even a hint of a two-stage coming.&#8221;

But &#8220;The Christian Herald newspaper was the brainchild of the Rev Michael Paget Baxter, born in Doncaster on 7 December 1834... (who) became a Christian at the age of 20... (and) In 1873-4, having attended the meetings of the famed contemporary preachers Moody and Sankey, he decided &#8220;immense good could be done by publishing in my magazine full reports of the services thus enabling multitudes to read the evangelist&#8217;s sermons&#8221;. This idea resulted in the weekly launch of Christian Herald and Signs of our Times, the first surviving issue of which was published on 7 July 1876.&#8221; Christian Herald - Features

It is curious how in 1830 a man could have published an article in a magazine that was not even founded before 1874!

Then he quotes MacPherson going on to say, &#8220;the earliest moment he could have derived it from anyone else (and I&#8217;m taking all available documentation into consideration) was when he visited Margaret in her home in Scotland in the middle of 1830. [76]&#8221;

Again, this allegation is wholly lacking in documentation. No evidence of any kind is given to back up the claim that Darby visited Margaret MacDonald in her home.

(continued)
 
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