Demon Posession

Originally posted by 4Jesus
My question is valid. If there was no initial proof from what he said that he had any problem with demons, then from what his churches beliefs are according to the action they took, it would be possible for him to experience problems with demons and not exhibit any signs, so periodic re-checks would be necessary.

In the future, why don't you let others defend themselves if they feel it is necessary, from the information that Quaffer posts, he should be astute enough to pick up on being belittled if that is the case.

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4Jesus,

I would also like to point out that my church is a prophetic oriented church.  While one may be able to hide an area of bondage for awhile, if that one is unwilling to let the Lord take care of it between Him and them, He will find another way of it getting taken care of.  

But the point really is that Jesus sets us free.  We can submit ourselves to Him and these "bondages" will not take up residense.  If we do find there are bondages, we can still submit to Him and they will flee.

James 4:6-8 (Amplified) But He gives us more and more grace (power of the Holy Spirit, to meet this evil tendency and all others fully).  That is why He says, God sets Himself against the proud and haughty, but give grace [continually] to the lowly (those who are humble enough to receive it).  So be subject to God. Resist the devil [stand firm against him]. and he will flee from you.  Come close to God and He will come close to you. [Recognize that you are] sinners, get your soiled hands clean; [realize that you have been disloyal] wavering individuals with divided interests, and purify your hearts [of your spiritual adultery].

(NKJ) But He gives more grace.  Therefore He says: "God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble." therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.  Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.  Cleanse you hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

As we draw closer to God and submit to Him then the devils flee.  If we don't draw close and submit to God then the devils do not flee. 

We've been given everything we need.  We need to use it.

Quaffer

Reminder:&nbsp&nbspDo not air your personal disagreements in public. Use your e-mail or private message option to resolve conflicts. If it continues, the thread will be closed.

Thank you.

Now if you bring this account to any scientist or psychologist, they'll never want to believe that it has anything to do with spirits, unless of cse they are Christians, and Christians who believe in the spiritual side of things. They'll just diagnose it as epilepsy or some other brain disease and prescribe drugs to control it. That's all they can do, but Jesus goes to the root cause.

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The how come Christians can become depressed, have cancer, epilepsy, etc? Depression is caused by chemical imbalances, if it were demons then why would drugs have any effect, cancer is caused by a genetic flaw and epilepsy is when your brain goes into a sort of loop, my dad is a Christian and he has epilepsy.

I do believe demons can possess unsaved people, and sometimes cause illnesses, but if they were the cause of every illness then we could cure everything by casting out the "spirit of X" in the name of Jesus. I don't understand why people find it hard to accept that our brain can become sick just like any other part of our body.

What do those of you who believe psychology is a quack science do if you have clincial depression?

some insight to Pauls 'thorn in the flesh' sent to 'buffet' him.

buffet in the greek means: to rap(or beat) upon with the fist

thorn there is the greek word skolops:  withered at the front 

it comes from skello:to parch:through the idea of leanness) the leg(as lank) leg 

and optomai:to gaze(ie with wide open eyes at at something remarkable

so this thorn in the flesh was something opennly visible on Paul. Withered at the front? Leg?  a withered leg that was visible to all? A messenger of satan sent to beat upon him(his flesh in this matter). In this way, having this outward fleshly imperfection, Paul would not be exalted above that of a real man, and the power would then be evident as to who or what(Holy Spirit) was doing the works and miracles Paul did so often. 

In our weakness, the power of God is made strong.  If every eye that beheld Paul could plainly see him as having a weakness, the power of God is what they would focus on.  Grace was then sufficient for Paul to continue his mission with a withered leg(or something like it).

The how come Christians can become depressed, have cancer, epilepsy, etc? Depression is caused by chemical imbalances, if it were demons then why would drugs have any effect, cancer is caused by a genetic flaw and epilepsy is when your brain goes into a sort of loop, my dad is a Christian and he has epilepsy.

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Christians live here, on earth, an earth that was once given to Adam to have dominion over. He forfeited that dominion to the serpent, satan, when he partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam died, (death means separation) and brought everyone under the same curse. Jesus came to defeat the power of death, and bring us back to dominion and fellowship once again with Father.

We have the right to claim that dominion, through faith, through our words and  through obedience to God.  The bible sais..'put on the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness'.  I have not known drugs to cure depression, although it can have effects, like you said.  I myself have had 'clinical depression' and God did heal it, lift it. 

You said depression is CAUSED by chemical imbalance.  Medicine claims this, but does not give explanation as to how the imbalance occurs to start with. Same with cancer. A genetic FLAW.  How the flaw gets to be a flaw, they do not know, nor do they have a cure. The processed food we eat, animal fat, chemical they put in our water supply to 'purify' it, lack of exercise, failure to bless our food, any of these lead to a less than perfect care of ourselves.  Combined with the fact that our bodies degenerate, being flesh indeed, and the sin that captivates the world system, our flesh is vulnerable.  Living in obedience, not defiling our temples, abstaining from sin, being in constant prayer, all of this prevents attacks of illness. 

Do our fathers fathers sins fall on us?  According to the bible they do. This is why certain illnesses runs in certain families.  We may 'inherit' something through no fault of our own, its just the sin condition this present world  or state of the earth we live in hands us. 

Can ALL disease and illness be healed? Yes. Is epilipsy, depression and cancer caused by demons? I believe, yes, perhaps not always directly, but indirectly by various ways, some of which i have stated.  Having one of these dis eases does not necessarily mean a demon resides in the person to perpetuate the problem. But prayer, and seeking God to find out, is definately something that should be done.  

Spirits of infirmity exist. Spirits of heaviness exist. Spirits that cause disease exist. Sin is all around us. Any of these things cause sickness and disease.

My son once had a fever that ordinary medicine had no affect on. His fever rose so high he began to see fire and spiders on his bed. At this point, i prayed once last time and refused to accept that God would leave him in this state, and within 30 minutes his fever was gone and he had no ill effects as though it never had been.

     

What do those of you who believe psychology is a quack science do if you have clincial depression?

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Speaking for myself, i sought God ernestly and would not relent, until i was healed.

By the way, sorcery in the greek is our word for 'pharmacy'.

EveOfGrace

Originally posted by EveOfGrace

Speaking for myself, i sought God ernestly and would not relent, until i was healed.

EveOfGrace

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That is so funny... I do the same thing... if we ever do get real sick which has happened maybe once, twice, (colds, bad ones).... I've yelled skyward at the top of my lungs "Help... we need to be healed NOW!!!!..."

and He has shown up within a few minutes....

4Jesus said this in Post #105

Please define prophetic oriented.

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Sure 4Jesus, I would be happy to do that.  I would also like to apologize for a previous comment that I might have offended you with.  I have deleted it from my post.

By prophetic I mean that my church is one that believes that the gifts apostles; prophets, evangelists; pastors, and teachers  (Eph 4:10-12) are all still in operation today and these gifts operate in our church.

We are also referred to a 5-fold church.  IOW, all 5 gifts are in operation.

It is rather difficult for me to try and explain, especially, if you attend a church that teaches these things are no longer available to us.  I checked your profile and have no idea what you already believe.  Although, I don't know that it would help me explain it better anyway. . .but I will try.

For example: we had a man on our worship team who played the bass guitar.  One day, one of our Pastors heard God tell her that she needed to have this man step down from that ministry.  God told her there were things going on in the man's marriage that were not right and God had been dealing with him but he was refusing to resolve the issue.  Other than that, God did not give her major details as to why, He just told her to do it.

She and her husband (both of them Pastors), went to him and told him that the Lord had instructed them to have him step down from the ministry.  

In the process of talking with him he revealed to them things going on in his marriage.  It was not adultry but was still a major marital issue and the man's refusal to deal with it in a Godly way was interferring with spiritual walk and his talents being used in the church.

So, back to my post where I said we are prophetically oriented and God will find some way to reveal what needs to be revealed . . .as you can see, by what happened in this situation, the man would not listen to God and let God deal with it privately, between he and God, so God revealed it to someone else so that it could be taken care of.

The one place that comes to mind that this happend in the Bible was between the Prophet Nathan and King David.  You can find the story in 2 Samuel 12.

So anyway, I hope that clarify's a little more what I'm saying.  Oh, and the only reason I know about it is that the man, himself, told me.  The Pastors did not tell it.

Quaffer

 

Sounds like a great church what city is that Quaffer?

Yesterday at 08:14 PM Live4Jesus said this in Post #110

Sounds like a great church what city is that Quaffer?

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It's Freedom Tabernacle in Kissimmee, Florida

Today at 12:08 PM 4Jesus said this in Post #112

The problem I have with the idea that prophets are still needed is that when the church began, God was still revealing to people that the Holy Spirit was operating in their lives. I've said this before, that any example of God dealing with people in the OT can't be comapred to the NT or to today since the Israelites were not operating under grace.

Do I believe the story you related? No. I believe that God deals with us personally and when the Holy Spirit convicts us, our conscience will be so uncomfortable that we have to deal with problems in our lives.



Paul understood our human nature and I think it is very dangerous that this kind of ministry is popping up. Anyone could say anything they wanted about anyone.

 

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The Israelites were operating under grace.  God could have wiped David out but He chose to send the Prophet instead.  That's grace.  God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.  He's not a respecter of persons. 

And "Popping up"?  I'm almost 49 years old (my birthday's Feb 20 ) and I've seen this stuff all my life.  I've also read numerous books on church history and see these type of things there.  Not just in the type of church I attend but many of the major non-penticostal churches started with this type of stuff in their history.  Also, not just "anyone" was saying these things.  It was leadership.

As I said, the Pastors told the man that God told them he was to step down.  They did not give any reasons.  It was the man himself who admitted what was going on.

I also said, that God had attempted to deal with the man privately but the man refused.  Therefore, giving God the go-ahead to make it public.

OK . . .now. . .let me give you a NT story . . .Acts 5:1 - 11.  (Amplified) But a certain man named Ananias with his wife Sapphira sold a piece of property, and with his wife's knowledge and connivance he kept back and wrongfully appropriated some of the proceeds, bringing only a part and putting it at the feet of the apostles.

But Peter said, Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart that you should lie to and attempt to deceive the Holy Spirit, and should [inviolation of your promise] withdraw secretly and appropriate to your own use part of the price from the sale of the land?

As long as it remained unsold, was it not still your own?  And [even] after it was sold, was not [the money] at your disposal and under your control?  Why then, is it that you have proposed and purposed in your heart to do this thing? [Hou could you have the heart to do such a deed?] You have not [simply] lied to men [playing false and showing yourself utterly deceitful] but to God.

Upon hearing these words, Ananias fell down and died.  And great dread and terror took possession of all who heard of it.

And the young men arose and wrapped up [the body] and carried it out and buried it.

Now after an interval of about three hours his wife came in, not having learned of what had happened.  And Peter said to her, Tell me, did you sell the land for so much?  Yes, she said, for so much.

Then Peter said to her, How could you two have agreed and conspired together to try to deceive the Spirit of the Lord?  Listen! The feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out [also].

And instantly she fell down at his feet and died; and the young men entering found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 

And the whole church and all others who heard of these things were appalled [great awe and strange terror and dread seized them].

 Wow, I don't see anything about God trying to deal with Ananias and Sapphira privately.  Although I believe He most likely did.  But as we can see by the outcome, they refused to listen.

And what was it Peter said?  "Why has satan filled your heart?"  Disobedience brings a heavy price on the one disobeying.

Then, his wife came in 3 hours later . . . they did not even bother to try and warn her.  She did not even know her husband was dead and buried.  She paid the same price.

The world is falling all over themselves to experience the supernatural.  They go to psysics, and listen to psysics and necromancers on TV, hoping for hope.  And meanwhile the church, who has the Hope, refuses to see and move in the Supernatural moving of the Holy Spirit today. 

It does not matter whether people believe it or not.  God is doing what He pleases and using who He pleases, in any way He pleases and does not need anyone's permission to do it. 

Quaffer

God dealt with the Israelites under Moses with the law and during the time of the prophets God dealt with Israel as lawbreakers and a backslidden people. Surely God could have killed everyone of them but the grace that the church experiences today is not what the Israelites experienced.

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The Old Testament laws and accounts of them, are given to us for instruction.  In 1cor. chapter 10, what happened to them (called our fathers) are examples(vs11). They were under the cloud, ate the same spiritual food, and drank from the Rock that is Christ.

Their practices are shadows of grace, but the substance is Christ. (Col.2:17) And in Hebrews: The old covenant is a pattern of the new. The earthly sanctuary is seen in the heavenly, Christ(new) is now High Priest, according to the order of Melchizedek(old). The very word 'dwelt' among us, from John, means to tabernacle. Jesus, is the new tabernacle.  The old is a pattern.

The coutyard: Jesus said, "I am the door, if anyone enters by Me he will be saved".

The bronze altar: a male of the herd without blemish was sacrificed here. Christ, the lamb without blemish.

The laver: Large brass vessel for holding water and cleansing the priests hands(lest they die) before enterring the tabernacle. After the sacrifice(Christs death and our salvation) the believer still needs daily cleansing to enter the presence of God.

The tabernacle itself: had the wooden structure(represents now, that which remains pure), and the tents. 4 tents layered. Tent 1 had colors:white(holiness), blue(heaven), purple(royalty) and scarlet(blood).   The second tent was made of goats hair, and hung over the linen for protection and added strenght. The goat for the DAy of Atonement, and the scapegoat in the wilderness.  Tent 3, ram skins dyed red (beauty in sacrifice).  The 4th tent was the storm tent, made of badger skins. The outer body of Christ when he took on flesh.

Then the Holy Place, the veil and Most Holy Place and of course the cloud of glory over the tabernacle.  These are most evident.

We cannot ignore the old testament patterns as they tell alot about the new.  They are perfect pictures, types, shadows of what now is.  In them, the substance is grace.  Even the furniture in the tabernacle are perfect representations.  As Paul said in 1Cor(above) they are for our admonition. (And quite beautifully planned).

 

Quaffer, your trying to base your doctine on a transitional period in the church.

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When did this transition begin and when does it end? If that is true, surely the bible states it.

The apostles were trying to convince un-believing Jews that the Holy Spirit was even operational. The signs and wonders that apostles had wrought up until then were miraculous acts of mercy now they had to convince people that God could also work in a judgemental manner.

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Is that same Holy Spirit still even operational?  When did His operations stop?  The signs and wonders were acts of mercy, my bible sais His mercies are new every morning. Are we no longer healing the sick and openning blind eyes and setting people free as commissioned by Jesus?  I didnt see where that is supposed to cease.  WE are HIS hands and feet.

WWJD

EveOfGrace  

Yesterday at 03:34 PM Quaffer said this in Post #111 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=646354#post646354)

It's Freedom Tabernacle in Kissimmee, Florida

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I was saved in Florida, was living in Sarasota at the time... the Lord moving mightily down there for sure... alot in this direction. He taught me a lot down there, because of the 'atmosphere' if you get my drift... there was plenty to work with... He taught me a lot in the midwest as well hint hint...

I too believe in all of the spiritual gifts explained from 1st Corinthians 12 to 1st Corinthians 14 and that they still exist today. I have had two prophecies given to me fulfilled and there is another I assume will be some day. I have witnessed spiritual gifts. I do pray that more churches that are using these gifts and have people with these gifts in their midst pay close attention to what Paul has taught us about them. For example if a whole congregation is speaking in tongues it is just as a gong or clanging cymbol and doesn't edify the church.

I do think people should be very careful speaking for God. IOW, it is dangerous to go around saying God told me to tell you this or God told me to have you do that and not have 100% assurance that it isn't just you trying to sway people in a given situation. You better wait and make sure it isn't just something you want to do and that it is without a doubt the Holy Spirit moving you to act.

I haven't found one scripture that says that any of the gifts of the Spirit are dead and I refuse to believe that what I've seen and witnessed didn't really happen. The Holy Spirit still moves and gifts are still given to God's people and when it happens in your life and you see it, wow is it awesome!

Yesterday at 08:29 PM 4Jesus said this in Post #114

I have the comforter that Jesus sent me, I don't need someone claiming to be a prophet that God has supposedly revealed something to. Your mind is made up but I hope others reading this will think twice before getting mixed up with people that claim they have been given some sort of divine revelation. Reading the Bible will give us the information we need to live a life that is pleasing to God and with the Holy Spirit to guide us we have a winning combination![/COLOR]

[SHADOW=coral]THANK YOU JESUS![/SHADOW] 

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4Jesus,

I commend you that you are keeping your life holy and pure so that God does not have to use a prophet in order to get you to listen.  That is how I choose to live my life as well.  Number 1 because I love Him, and number 2 because I don't want my sins revealed to anyone. 

Yes, reading the Bible does give us the information we need to walk a successful Christwalk.  And yes, the Holy Spirit is ever there to reveal to us what we are reading.

I think you have a great missunderstanding about the operation of the gifts as listed in the Bible.  You believe they no longer exist because we no longer need them.  I disagree. 

The church today needs these gifts in operation even more than the early church.  The early church did not need to use these gifts to prove anything regarding the Holy Spirt.  He showed Himself quite capable on the day of Penticost. 

Scripture tells us the gifts are for the edification of the body of Christ.  It does not say anything about proving who the HS is or what He does.  The body of Christ still needs edification. 

We have Christians who are sick in body, sick in mind, and sick in spirit.  Why would we not need His gifts any more than they did?  Who needs more edification than a brother or sister who's sick (body, mind, or spirit)? 

If all we tell them to do is read the Bible and do not reach out with the gifts that God has bestowed on us to give them, then we are no better than the servant who hid his talent in the ground.

No prophet should be telling people things that God has not already done in the lives of the people being told.  No prophet should use manipulative tactics.  No prophet should be saying things that are anti Biblical.  

1 Cor 12:28 says, "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues".

If the present day church no longer needs "prophets"  then that should also mean we don't need any of the other gifts listed here, which would include "teachers, helps, and governments".  I could most likely guess that your church has those three. So, why are they still needed, but not the others?    No where does scripture say that any of them have ceased.

The world needs the church to be walking in their giftings.  I was with a small group of people a couple of weeks ago doing street ministry.  We were on our way back to our cars and came across a couple of young men.  They were both currently homeless. 

One of the people with me started talking to one of them and in the conversation began to tell him things about himself that she could not have known.  At one point in what was being said, he gave a startled laugh, and said, "that's true, how do you know that?"

We were able to minister Jesus to both young men and incourage them in the direction they already felt the needed to go but needed the afirmation.

God is still speaking today, and while these things may not exist in your church, they do in many others.  

Quaffer




 

I would agree with Quaffer... I kind of see much of the church as being at this point today, though surely it has been here for quite some time as well..

2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

And essentially, far as I can tell, denying the gifts of the Holy spirit is equal to denying the Holy Spirit.

It is nice to know God isn't it Quaffer? We can do that through the Holy Spirit, He's right there with us if we want Him to be.

sad, most christians don't give Him the time of day...

Today at 03:00 PM JesusServant said
I do think people should be very careful speaking for God. IOW, it is dangerous to go around saying God told me to tell you this or God told me to have you do that and not have 100% assurance that it isn't just you trying to sway people in a given situation. You better wait and make sure it isn't just something you want to do and that it is without a doubt the Holy Spirit moving you to act.

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Usually Servant, if it be from God, He will have more than one (good christian friend) speak it to you, persons who are not aware someone else said the same... and He confirms in other ways as well.

You shouldn't take the prophetic word of just 'one' real seriously until it starts actually being hammered at you... which if it be from God, it will be, because when God speaks He doesn't usually speak in secret, He tells many... He always confirms.

Likewise if 7 athiests tell you the same thing in one day i would worry if the devil weren't on your case for some reason... don't listen to those. God speaks to those He knows, not the others.

For instance, lets say He speaks something to you personally, or someone else speks it to you... but you're not sure it was from Him... chances are good if it was from Him you'll hear the exact same words within a day or two from a pastor, even could be a pastor on a radio show you're listening to, or someone like that. You should generally always wait for confirmation on important things you think He might be saying to you, He always always sends it.