Exodus Int'l closing its doors and apologizes

ChaseWind · Jun 21, 2013

Finally this reparative therapy group saw the light and shut down with an apology for the harm they have done. Now, maybe the churches will re-examine Scripture and see where they are reading homosexual orientation into Scripture instead of reading out of it what is stated. Maybe the true churches will come to the light also.

Exodus article in the Baptist Press:
Baptist Press - Exodus Int'l closes after Chambers' apology - News with a Christian Perspective

OzSpen · Jun 21, 2013

ChaseWind said:
Finally this reparative therapy group saw the light and shut down with an apology for the harm they have done. Now, maybe the churches will re-examine Scripture and see where they are reading homosexual orientation into Scripture instead of reading out of it what is stated. Maybe the true churches will come to the light also.

Exodus article in the Baptist Press:
Baptist Press - Exodus Int'l closes after Chambers' apology - News with a Christian Perspective

Perhaps the true churches will get back to acknowledging the source of active and passive homosexual behaviour:

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous[a] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,[b] 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God (1 Cor 6:9-11 ESV, from BibleGateway)

Those who practice passive and active homosexuality are placed in the same category as those who practice the sinful activities of heterosexual immorality, idolatry, adultery, drunkenness, revilers, and swindlers. The God news is that Jesus changes all sinful people who can be washed, sanctiified and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus.

When we see this behaviour as sinful, we know that there is a 'cure' in salvation through Jesus.

Oz

ChaseWind · Jun 21, 2013

OzSpen said:
Perhaps the true churches will get back to acknowledging the source of active and passive homosexual behaviour:

Those who practice passive and active homosexuality are placed in the same category as those who practice the sinful activities of heterosexual immorality, idolatry, adultery, drunkenness, revilers, and swindlers. The God news is that Jesus changes all sinful people who can be washed, sanctiified and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus.

When we see this behaviour as sinful, we know that there is a 'cure' in salvation through Jesus.

Oz

Active and passive... odd, don't hear those terms with married couples. It does not fit homosexual couples either. It fits the abusers, sodomites. Same-gender couples very often practice mutual sex activities. Even in other practices many are versatile. In older Christian works, the one called malakos is sometimes referred to as the "victim" as opposed to the abuser (sodomite) when it is seen metaphorically as sexual. Of course, that is before modernists decided to read modern psychological concepts into the Scripture.

OzSpen · Jun 21, 2013

ChaseWind said:
Active and passive... odd, don't hear those terms with married couples. It does not fit homosexual couples either. It fits the abusers, sodomites. Same-gender couples very often practice mutual sex activities. Even in other practices many are versatile. In older Christian works, the one called malakos is sometimes referred to as the "victim" as opposed to the abuser (sodomite) when it is seen metaphorically as sexual. Of course, that is before modernists decided to read modern psychological concepts into the Scripture.

The 'active and passive' is based on the Greek language used as is illustrated by the footnote for 'men who practice homosexuality' in the ESV translation of 1 Cor 6:9, which states, 'The two Greek terms translated by this phrase refer to the passive and active partners in consensual homosexual acts'.

So do you regard homosexual acts as sinful behaviour for which there is change available through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ?

Oz

ChaseWind · Jun 21, 2013

OzSpen said:
The 'active and passive' is based on the Greek language used as is illustrated by the footnote for 'men who practice homosexuality' in the ESV translation of 1 Cor 6:9, which states, 'The two Greek terms translated by this phrase refer to the passive and active partners in consensual homosexual acts'.

So do you regard homosexual acts as sinful behaviour for which there is change available through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ?

Oz

I no more regard same-gender sex acts sinful than I regard opposite-gender sex acts as sinful. It depends on other factors, not merely the genders involved. And no, I do not think God promised to change sexual orientations anywhere in the Scripture and there is no evidence to support the idea of "ex-gay". In addition, God's word itself states that abstinence from sexual expression is a "gift" that not all men have. Marriage is not a biblical option for same-gender oriented people, so other options must be sought in the Scriptures. I reject the ESV translation on 1 Cor.6:9 and 1 Tim. 1:10 as well as I reject the NASB and NKJV. It is an impossible translation since the word and concept of homosexuality never existed until 1869 in Germany.

OzSpen · Jun 22, 2013

ChaseWind said:
I no more regard same-gender sex acts sinful than I regard opposite-gender sex acts as sinful. It depends on other factors, not merely the genders involved. And no, I do not think God promised to change sexual orientations anywhere in the Scripture and there is no evidence to support the idea of "ex-gay". In addition, God's word itself states that abstinence from sexual expression is a "gift" that not all men have. Marriage is not a biblical option for same-gender oriented people, so other options must be sought in the Scriptures. I reject the ESV translation on 1 Cor.6:9 and 1 Tim. 1:10 as well as I reject the NASB and NKJV. It is an impossible translation since the word and concept of homosexuality never existed until 1869 in Germany.

So you know the Greek language better than the translators of the ESV, NASB and NKJV?

God placed the practice of homosexuality (I Cor 6:9) in league with other acts of unrighteousness. According to Arndt & Gingrich's Greek lexicon, there are two words referring to the practice of homosexuality in this verse: (1) malakos refers, of persons, to 'soft, effeminate, esp. of catamites, men and boys who allow themselves to be misused homosexually'; (2) arsenokoites refers to 'a male homosexual, pedergast, sodomite'.

So you know better than these Greek scholars to define the words differently? From where do you gain your Greek knowledge to refute these meanings of the two words translated as 'men who practice homosexuality' in the English Standard Version?

'Sexual orientations' comes from contemporary speak and not from biblical exegesis.

Oz

OzSpen · Jun 22, 2013

ChaseWind said:
Finally this reparative therapy group saw the light and shut down with an apology for the harm they have done. Now, maybe the churches will re-examine Scripture and see where they are reading homosexual orientation into Scripture instead of reading out of it what is stated. Maybe the true churches will come to the light also.

Exodus article in the Baptist Press:
Baptist Press - Exodus Int'l closes after Chambers' apology - News with a Christian Perspective

Bill Muehlenberg of Culture Watch has a different view to yours on Exodus International. See his article, 'On Exodus'.

Oz

ChaseWind · Jun 22, 2013

OzSpen said:
So you know the Greek language better than the translators of the ESV, NASB and NKJV?

God placed the practice of homosexuality (I Cor 6:9) in league with other acts of unrighteousness. According to Arndt & Gingrich's Greek lexicon, there are two words referring to the practice of homosexuality in this verse: (1) malakos refers, of persons, to 'soft, effeminate, esp. of catamites, men and boys who allow themselves to be misused homosexually'; (2) arsenokoites refers to 'a male homosexual, pedergast, sodomite'.

So you know better than these Greek scholars to define the words differently? From where do you gain your Greek knowledge to refute these meanings of the two words translated as 'men who practice homosexuality' in the English Standard Version?

'Sexual orientations' comes from contemporary speak and not from biblical exegesis.

Oz

I use biblical common sense along with the Greek scholars. On the Greek arsenokoites I go with the BDAG 2001, which is according to Wikipedia:

"The Bauer-Danker Lexicon (ISBN 0226039331) is among the most highly respected dictionaries of Biblical Greek.[1] The producers of the German forerunner are Preuschen and Bauer. The English edition is A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (the Third Edition was published in 2001 by The University of Chicago Press)."

I quote directly from that Lexicon on arsenokoites in 1 Cor. 6:9 -

"a male who engages in sexual activity w. a pers. of his own sex, pederast 1 Cor 6:9 (on the impropriety of RSVs homosexuals [altered to sodomites NRSV] s. WPetersen, VigChr 40, 86, 18791;"

You see, Oz, the word the ESV sees as homosexuals, arsenokoites, is as you well know, a compound male-bed. The "bed" part, koites referring to opposite sex union, is used in a sin list also, Rom. 13:13, but would anyone dream of translating those sinners as heterosexuals?

Rom 13:13 KJV "Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in heterosexuality(koites) and wantonness, not in strife and envying."

I disagree with the BDAG on the translation of malakos and find the 19th Century Greek scholar Meyer more biblical when comparing Scripture with Scripture. I quote from Meyer:

"μαλακοί] effeminates, commonly understood as qui muliebria patiuntur, but with no sufficient evidence from the usage of the language (the passages in Wetstein and Kypke, even Dion. Hal. vii. 2, do not prove the point); moreover, such catamites (molles) were called πόρνοι or κίναιδοι. One does not see, moreover, why precisely this sin should be mentioned twice over in different aspects. Rather therefore: effeminate luxurious livers. Comp Aristotle, Eth. vii. 7 : μαλακὸς καὶ τρυφῶν, Xen. Mem. ii. 1, 20, also μαλακῶς, iii. 11. 10 : τρυφὴ δὲ καὶ μαλθακία, Plato, Rep. p. 590 B."

I have already posted my 7 reasons I agree with Meyer on this word, and you can see it my OP titled: Are the Greek scholars always right? posted on June 14th.

Oz, you wrote:
"'Sexual orientations' comes from contemporary speak and not from biblical exegesis."

That is very true, and so do the words "homosexual" and "homosexuality" and they have NO PLACE used in a translation of the Holy Bible!

You will notice the NKJV and NASB cannot even agree on what Greek word to translated as "homosexuals" in their desire to condemn homosexuals from their own bias. I sum up with a secular view of the concept:

"This idea -- that some individual's sexual attraction for persons of the same sex was an inherent and unchanging aspect of their personality -- was radically new. Thousands of years of recorded history and the rise and fall of sophisticated and complex societies occurred before homosexuality existed as a word or even as an idea....The ancient Greek and Latin languages have no word that can be translated as homosexual..." A Natural History of Homosexuality by Francis Mark Mondimore, The John Hopkins University Press.

ChaseWind · Jun 22, 2013

OzSpen said:
Bill Muehlenberg of Culture Watch has a different view to yours on Exodus International. See his article, 'On Exodus'.

Oz

Oz, I went to that site and read this right up front:

"Exodus International under the leadership of Alan Chambers has been going off the rails for some time now. Many former homosexuals have been greatly concerned about the way the organisation has been heading under his rule. And now it is closing shop."

Those "former homosexuals" I view as in the same camp with those healed of various illnesses by Oral Roberts and those charlatans. No scientific research has shown any evidence whatsoever that sexual orientation can be changed making for a "former homosexual". That is absurd to a rational heterosexual to think sexual orientation can be changed. Can you change and become exclusively attracted to and a lover of another male?

Now, some males with a degree of bisexuality may go into counseling, or on their own choose to embrace their heterosexual side exclusively, but even then it does not always last. Sexual orientation is neither chosen nor changeable.

MatthewDiscipleofGod · Jun 22, 2013

God has the power to lead homosexuals from their sinful lifestyles. To allow homosexuals to live in their sin is a very unloving thing to do. No one would think it is OK to allow a little child to play in a busy street but yet they allow and sometimes encourage homosexuals to live in a lifestyle that is even more destructive. The Bible makes it clear that homosexuality is sin.

PrincetonGuy · Jun 22, 2013

ChaseWind said:
I no more regard same-gender sex acts sinful than I regard opposite-gender sex acts as sinful.

For nearly 1900 years, the New Testament was understood by the Christians in EVERY Christian denomination to teach that homosexual acts are sinful and damnable. Are we to believe with you that the Apostle Paul was such an extremely poor writer that not even the most brilliant and spiritual Christians up to the 1950’s were able to understand what he taught about homosexuality?

ChaseWind said:
And no, I do not think God promised to change sexual orientations anywhere in the Scripture and there is no evidence to support the idea of "ex-gay".

Please read the Bible. The Bible says,

John 8:31. So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32. and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
33. They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”
34. Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35. “The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36. “So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.”
37. ‘I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.
38. “I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”
39. They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham.
40. “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.
41. “You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.”
42. Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
43. “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
44. “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
45. “But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.
46. “Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?
47. “He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.” (NASB, 1995)

Jesus expressly taught that those people who continue in His word are truly His disciples, and that they would know the truth and that the truth would make them free of their sins. The Apostle Paul tell us that this promise has been fulfilled in the case of homosexuals involved in the sin of sodomy, whether that involvement was as the passive or the active partner.

1 Corinthians 6:9. Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10. nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (NASB, 1995)

ChaseWind said:
In addition, God's word itself states that abstinence from sexual expression is a "gift" that not all men have. Marriage is not a biblical option for same-gender oriented people, so other options must be sought in the Scriptures.

Matthew 19:10. The disciples *said to Him, “If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry.”
11. But He said to them, “Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given.
12. “For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it.” (NASB, 1995)

The asterisk in v. 10 indicates that the English word “said” is a translation of a Greek verb in the present tense. In other words, Jesus did not simply say this in past time, but is continuing to say it. Jesus gives those who need the grace to remain celibate the grace to do so. Indeed, He gives it to every boy and girl, and every man and woman, as long as they need it! There is no excuse to sin!

ChaseWind said:
I reject the ESV translation on 1 Cor.6:9 and 1 Tim. 1:10 as well as I reject the NASB and NKJV. It is an impossible translation since the word and concept of homosexuality never existed until 1869 in Germany.

This pro-homosexual argument first appeared in the 1950’s and has been proven to be false by both linguists and biologists. You posted your pro-homosexual arguments in an earlier thread and every one of your arguments was shown to be false. How many more pro-homosexual threads do you plan to start? What is your agenda?

PrincetonGuy · Jun 22, 2013

ChaseWind said:
Active and passive... odd, don't hear those terms with married couples. It does not fit homosexual couples either. It fits the abusers, sodomites. Same-gender couples very often practice mutual sex activities. Even in other practices many are versatile. In older Christian works, the one called malakos is sometimes referred to as the "victim" as opposed to the abuser (sodomite) when it is seen metaphorically as sexual.

Is it not sinfully dishonest to use the outdated and incorrect language of antiquity rather than the language of contemporary English to argue your lascivious point? As you very well know, in the expression, abusers of themselves with mankind found in the KJV and old revisions of it, the word abusers did NOT express the concepts of force, aggression, or injury to a victim! Indeed, 400 years ago, the word abuse simply meant, to put to a wrong or improper use. Most certainly, sodomites put their private part to an improper use (or are you unfamiliar with human anatomy?). Yes, I am aware that many homosexual activists knowingly and willfully use the same dishonest argumentbut that does not give anyone an excuse to use it!

ChaseWind said:
Of course, that is before modernists decided to read modern psychological concepts into the Scripture.

The psychological concept of homosexuality in humans and in animals is NOT a modern concept, but the concept that the Bible does not teach against homosexual behavior is a very new concept!

ChaseWind · Jun 22, 2013

PrincetonGuy said:
This pro-homosexual argument first appeared in the 1950s and has been proven to be false by both linguists and biologists. You posted your pro-homosexual arguments in an earlier thread and every one of your arguments was shown to be false. How many more pro-homosexual threads do you plan to start? What is your agenda?

Pro-God's word, NOT pro-homosexual. The word "homosexual" NEVER was seen in an English translation until the RSV 1st Edition copyright 1946 -

1 Cor. 6:9 RSV 1st Ed. "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,"

From the New Bible Dictionary, 1996 copyright -
"The Bible says nothing specifically about the homosexual condition (despite the rather misleading RSV translation of 1 Cor. 6:9)..."

From the BDAG, 2001 copyright -
"a male who engages in sexual activity w. a pers. of his own sex, pederast 1 Cor 6:9 (on the impropriety of RSVs homosexuals [altered to sodomites NRSV] s. WPetersen, VigChr 40, 86, 18791"

I'll put those scholar's credentials up against you any day of the week. It only makes common sense since the word "homosexual" and the concept itself never existed until 1869.

There are translations that have the verses containing malakos and arsenokoites translated closer to the meaning.

Martin Luther's Translation (derived using google translate from the German)
1 Co 6:9 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived! Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers"
1 Ti 1:10 "fornicators, sodomites, thieves the people, for liars, for perjured persons, and something that is contrary to sound doctrine"

Young's Literal Translation
"have ye not known that the unrighteous the reign of God shall not inherit? be not led astray; neither whoremongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites," (1Cor 6:9, YLT)
1Ti 1:10 YLT "whoremongers, sodomites, men-stealers, liars, perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that to sound doctrine is adverse"

The 1936 Williams Translation
1 Co 6:9 WT "Do you not know that wrongdoers will not have a share in the kingdom of God? Stop being misled; people who are sexually immoral or idolaters or adulterers or sensual or guilty of unnatural sexual vice
1Ti 1:10 WT "the immoral, men who practice sodomy, men who make other men their slaves, liars, perjurers, or anything else that is contrary to sound teaching,"

The NIV Interlinear Greek-English NT, literal trans. by Rev. Alfred Marshall
1 Co. 6:9 "Or know ye not that unrighteous men will not inherit [the] kingdom of God? Be not led astray; not fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor voluptuous persons nor sodomites"
1 Ti 1:10 "for fornicators, for paederasts, for menstealers, for liars, for perjurers, and if any other thing opposes to the being healthful teaching,"

If anyone has an "agenda" since the 1950s, it is those with an agenda against those God made to be homosexual oriented and then inserting their agenda into translations by usurping the terms but ignoring the real meaning of "homosexual" and "homosexuality".

PrincetonGuy · Jun 22, 2013

ChaseWind said:
I use biblical common sense along with the Greek scholars. On the Greek arsenokoites I go with the BDAG 2001, which is according to Wikipedia:

"The Bauer-Danker Lexicon (ISBN 0226039331) is among the most highly respected dictionaries of Biblical Greek.[1] The producers of the German forerunner are Preuschen and Bauer. The English edition is A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (the Third Edition was published in 2001 by The University of Chicago Press)."

I quote directly from that Lexicon on arsenokoites in 1 Cor. 6:9 -

"a male who engages in sexual activity w. a pers. of his own sex, pederast 1 Cor 6:9 (on the impropriety of RSVs homosexuals [altered to sodomites NRSV] s. WPetersen, VigChr 40, 86, 18791;"

The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (the Jehovahs Witnesses) have become infamous for doing the exact thing that you are doing in this post! They deceptively snip, out of context, quotes from the same very well respected lexicon to falsely make it appear to support their aberrational teachings! Like these deceivers, you have omitted the words that disprove your position! For example, you failed to include these words from that lexicon, of one who assumes the dominant role in same-sex activity, opp. μαλακός. To be fair and honest, the more than a quarter of a page (p. 135) of lexical information should be quoted.

Metal Minister · Jun 22, 2013

Ok ChaseWind, perhaps this will get us to our definitions better and keep the misunderstandings down. Why was it that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed?

OzSpen · Jun 22, 2013

ChaseWind said:
Oz, I went to that site and read this right up front:

"Exodus International under the leadership of Alan Chambers has been going off the rails for some time now. Many former homosexuals have been greatly concerned about the way the organisation has been heading under his rule. And now it is closing shop."

Those "former homosexuals" I view as in the same camp with those healed of various illnesses by Oral Roberts and those charlatans. No scientific research has shown any evidence whatsoever that sexual orientation can be changed making for a "former homosexual". That is absurd to a rational heterosexual to think sexual orientation can be changed. Can you change and become exclusively attracted to and a lover of another male?

Now, some males with a degree of bisexuality may go into counseling, or on their own choose to embrace their heterosexual side exclusively, but even then it does not always last. Sexual orientation is neither chosen nor changeable.

You have made some very dangerous links of associating the healing of former homosexuals with charlatans. You provided ZERO evidence.

Bill Muehlenberg's article provided examples of those in ministry to homosexuals who disagree with the Exodus International conclusion.

So are you an advocate of male-to-male and female-to-female sexual activity?

Oz

OzSpen · Jun 22, 2013

PrincetonGuy said:
For nearly 1900 years, the New Testament was understood by the Christians in EVERY Christian denomination to teach that homosexual acts are sinful and damnable. Are we to believe with you that the Apostle Paul was such an extremely poor writer that not even the most brilliant and spiritual Christians up to the 1950s were able to understand what he taught about homosexuality?

Please read the Bible. The Bible says,

John 8:31. So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32. and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.
33. They answered Him, We are Abrahams descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, You will become free?
34. Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
37. I know that you are Abrahams descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.
38. I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.
39. They answered and said to Him, Abraham is our father. Jesus *said to them, If you are Abrahams children, do the deeds of Abraham.
40. But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.
41. You are doing the deeds of your father. They said to Him, We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.
42. Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
43. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
44. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
45. But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.
46. Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?
47. He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God. (NASB, 1995)

Jesus expressly taught that those people who continue in His word are truly His disciples, and that they would know the truth and that the truth would make them free of their sins. The Apostle Paul tell us that this promise has been fulfilled in the case of homosexuals involved in the sin of sodomy, whether that involvement was as the passive or the active partner.

1 Corinthians 6:9. Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10. nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (NASB, 1995)

Matthew 19:10. The disciples *said to Him, If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry.
11. But He said to them, Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given.
12. For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it. (NASB, 1995)

The asterisk in v. 10 indicates that the English word said is a translation of a Greek verb in the present tense. In other words, Jesus did not simply say this in past time, put is continuing to say it. Jesus gives those who need the grace to remain celibate the grace to do so. Indeed, He gives it to every boy and girl, and every man and woman, as long as they need it! There is no excuse to sin!

This pro-homosexual argument first appeared in the 1950s and has been proven to be false by both linguists and biologists. You posted your pro-homosexual arguments in an earlier thread and every one of your arguments was shown to be false. How many more pro-homosexual threads do you plan to start? What is your agenda?

ChaseWind · Jun 22, 2013

PrincetonGuy said:
Most certainly, sodomites put their private part to an improper use (or are you unfamiliar with human anatomy?). Yes, I am aware that many homosexual activists knowingly and willfully use the same dishonest argumentbut that does not give anyone an excuse to use it!

The psychological concept of homosexuality in humans and in animals is NOT a modern concept, but the concept that the Bible does not teach against homosexual behavior is a very new concept!

You have equated "sodomites" with "homosexual" and that is either a sign of ignorance, or bigotry, or maybe both.

Metal Minister · Jun 22, 2013

ChaseWind said:
You have equated "sodomites" with "homosexual" and that is either a sign of ignorance, or bigotry, or maybe both.

No, that is what homosexuals were called until the advent of the term homosexual.

ChaseWind · Jun 22, 2013

PrincetonGuy said:
For example, you failed to include these words from that lexicon, of one who assumes the dominant role in same-sex activity, opp. μαλακός. To be fair and honest, the more than a quarter of a page (p. 135) of lexical information should be quoted.

Do you see the word "homosexual" anywhere in the BDAG as a proper rendering of arsenokoites? No, because it is NOT there. Danker suggests the translation: "pederasts". I try to avoid the long-winded posts as much as possible, but since you seem to like that, here is the entire BDAG and the readers can determine if I left anything out to distort matters:

( male + bed; Bardesanes 719 fgm. 3b 10, 25 p. 653 Jac. [in Eus., PE 6, 10, 25]; Anth. Pal. 9, 686, 5 and Cat. Cod. Astr. VIII/4 p. 196, 6 and 8 have the sp. ; Theoph. Ant. 1, 2 [p. 60, 27]; in a vice listSibOr 2, 73; AcJ 36 [Aa II/1, 169]; cp. the association of and Lev 20:13, s.Soph. Lex.: =one who has intercourse w. a man as w. a woman; cp. the formation of [ + ] one who has intercourse w. his mother Hipponax 15, 2 Diehl3 [=Degani 20, 2]) a male who engages in sexual activity w. a pers. of his own sex, pederast 1 Cor 6:9 (on the impropriety of RSVs homosexuals [altered to sodomites NRSV] s. WPetersen, VigChr 40, 86, 18791; cp. DWright, ibid. 41, 87, 39698; REBs rendering of w. the single term sexual pervert is lexically unacceptable), of one who assumes the dominant role in same-sex activity, opp.(difft. DMartin, in Biblical Ethics and Homosexuality, ed. RBrawley, 96, 11736); 1 Ti 1:10;Pol 5:3. Cp. Ro 1:27. Romans forbade pederasty w. free boys in the Lex Scantinia, pre-Cicero (JBremmer, Arethusa 13, 80, 288 and notes); Pauls strictures against same-sex activity cannot be satisfactorily explained on the basis of alleged temple prostitution (on its rarity, but w. some evidence concerning women used for sacred prostitution at Corinth s. LWoodbury, TAPA 108, 78, 290f, esp. note 18 [lit.]), or limited to contract w. boys for homoerotic service (s. Wright, VigChr 38, 84, 12553). For condemnation of the practice in the Euphrates region s. the ref. to Bardesanes above.RBurton, The Book of the Thousand Nights and a Night, 1934, vol. 6, 374882, lit. reff. and anthropological data relating to a variety of Mediterranean cultures; DBailey, Homosexuality and the Western Christian Tradition, 55; KDover, Greek Homosexuality 78; RScroggs, The NT and Homosexuality 83; JBoswell, Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality 80; JBremmer, Greek Pederasty, in JBremmer, ed. From Sappho to de Sade2 91, 114; ECantarella, Bisexuality in the Ancient World 92.Pauly-W. 8, 1333f; 145968. DELGs.v.. M-M.

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